Terrorism????...Blame America!!!!

[Atilla]

I would like to clear up that at no point ANYWHERE have I ever said that Britain/USA should attack Pakistan. No idea where you got that from. Also I don't remember ever insinuating that you were unpatriotic.

I am stating clearly that you can not negotiate with these type of terrorists, a point I see you have chosen to ignore in your reply.

I also believe that if a country is attacked they have every right to retaliate.

I also believe that terrorists should be harshly treated, because a cup of tea and a wafer with a councilor isn't going to get results.

I also believe that Bush/Blair at the time took the right course of action. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

You pose a whole load of theoretical questions about some farcical war in Pakistan that I've never mentioned. Maybe you should ensure your mentally equipped enough to read someones posts properly before trying to be a smart ass.

PS. has anyone ever told you that not everything you read on the internet is true. David flippin shayler and some rehashed conspiracy theories. Good work buddy.

PPS As far as Milliband is concerned I couldn't give a tinkers cuss about his opinion. It appears you do as you took the time to post me the link...gees thanks mate !

Fair points apologies ceydababy.

I've got you mixed up as supporting Forex99s point of view. Merged threads with war on terror & attacking wrong country.

I concur you can't negotiate with terrorists. At least not unless they lay their arms down and sit on the table first.

However, approach to dealing with terrorists is debatable. Terrorism is not something that you can target with artillery. It's an idealogy with a political objective.

I beg to differ on the approaches that have been taken and whether it has been effective.

I believe we have created more terrorists and killed more innocent people and the World is a lot more dangerous place than ever before.

I think peace and Ireland is a good example. When Kev Livingston in the 80s first suggested talking the the IRA there was uproar and shock. 20 years down the line it was Major's government who initiated the talks.

Making and keeping the peace is hard work but easier than war on terror.

 

[nine]

However, approach to dealing with terrorists is debatable. Terrorism is not something that you can target with artillery. It's an idealogy with a political objective.

I beg to differ on the approaches that have been taken and whether it has been effective.

I believe we have created more terrorists and killed more innocent people and the World is a lot more dangerous place than ever before.

I think peace and Ireland is a good example. When Kev Livingston in the 80s first suggested talking the the IRA there was uproar and shock. 20 years down the line it was Major's government who initiated the talks.

Making and keeping the peace is hard work but easier than war on terror.

The trouble with generalities is that each case is different.

Sometime terrorists can be dealt with by police actions. But what do you do when you are not the police and the police covertly or overtly support them (Gaza).

Sometimes more terrorists can be created than erased by an action. Afghanistan may be a case of this although it might not be - history will tell. Sometimes its not true. Given the statements by Israeli peaceniks and Palestinians about support for Hamas in Gaza there is probably a nett decline in Hamas terrorists (P's affiliated with H who want to fire rockets at Israeli civilians or to blow themselves up near civilians/police).

Each situation is different yet people talk about them as if they were the same.

I happen to believe that Israel needs a border based peace with Palestine and seems incapable of finding common conditions. Part of the problem is that there are so many constituencies in Israel and the politics seems to reflect that.

But I don't believe that they are creating more terrorists by the action in Gaza. The memories of the Arab street are long and distorted by propaganda. So any one offensive is just part of the legend and matters little by itself. When you control a populace that is poor, ill-educated and resentful by creating legends that blame everyone else you will always be generating terrorists - the only question is who is the target. It used to be France and Britain, it moved to America, it could well be China in 15 years. Shall we agree to discuss this in 2024 after the greatest depression?

What I would like to know is what Israel thinks its end game is here. What is the objective? What do you think?

 

[ceydababy]

Fair points apologies ceydababy.

I've got you mixed up as supporting Forex99s point of view. Merged threads with war on terror & attacking wrong country.

I concur you can't negotiate with terrorists. At least not unless they lay their arms down and sit on the table first.

However, approach to dealing with terrorists is debatable. Terrorism is not something that you can target with artillery. It's an idealogy with a political objective.

I beg to differ on the approaches that have been taken and whether it has been effective.

I believe we have created more terrorists and killed more innocent people and the World
is a lot more dangerous place than ever before.

I think peace and Ireland is a good example. When Kev Livingston in the 80s first suggested talking the the IRA there was uproar and shock. 20 years down the line it was Major's government who initiated the talks.

Making and keeping the peace is hard work but easier than war on terror.

I do agree that Bush/Blair's actions has actually probably created more terrorists. However, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I also think that Israel attacking the Palestinians has probably created more terrorists. Hamas have imbedded terrorists armed with rockets in schools, hospitals and residential areas. What do Israel do in this situation ?? I believe it was the Palestinians that broke the ceasefire agreement.

I don't think a comparison between Gerry Adams and Bin Laden is the right comparison to make. Yes Gerry Adams was the front for a terrorist organisation but the aims of Sinn Feinn were clear and eventually could be negotiated. I would also say that the levels of terrorism are entirely different.

I'm no middle east expert but I understand that Bin Laden is looking for Sharia law across the middle east, and most of Southern Europe. Where is the middle ground ?? There isn't one.

 

[tar]

I do agree that Bush/Blair's actions has actually probably created more terrorists. However, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I also think that Israel attacking the Palestinians has probably created more terrorists. Hamas have imbedded terrorists armed with rockets in schools, hospitals and residential areas. What do Israel do in this situation ?? I believe it was the Palestinians that broke the ceasefire agreement.

I don't think a comparison between Gerry Adams and Bin Laden is the right comparison to make. Yes Gerry Adams was the front for a terrorist organisation but the aims of Sinn Feinn were clear and eventually could be negotiated. I would also say that the levels of terrorism are entirely different.

I'm no middle east expert but I understand that Bin Laden is looking for Sharia law across the middle east, and most of Southern Europe. Where is the middle ground ?? There isn't one.

U cant fight terror it is an idolegy , isreal killed 1000 the last 20 days 300 of them children , hamas killed 20 the last few years , what r u talking about ? isreal and the us are the real terrorists . why al qaida didnt attack Brazil , why they attacked USA ?! Bush spent hundred of billions on nothing , terror is there nothing changed , Iraq now is a "terrorists homeland " after the iraq war , u cant fight terror ... war on Gaza solved nothing , u made people there love hamas more and the rockets still reaching isreal cities ...

It is not about Ibn laden or hamas , it is about the US policy , as i said b4 if the US and its allies continue in their stupid policies , they will have to face more " radical groups " , fighting al qiada will be like a picnic .

Look for the reasons for what they call "islamic terror "and solve the reasons , not by fighting and killing people ! , its stupid really , what u will do to people love to killed !!!

Good luck

 

[Pat494]

I don't think a comparison between Gerry Adams and Bin Laden is the right comparison to make. Yes Gerry Adams was the front for a terrorist organisation but .

Amazing to think Jerry Adams used to regularly fund raise for 20+ years in the USA to promote terrorism. The Yanks saw through him eventually but were they slow or what ?

 

[Atilla]

The trouble with generalities is that each case is different.

Sometime terrorists can be dealt with by police actions. But what do you do when you are not the police and the police covertly or overtly support them (Gaza).

Sometimes more terrorists can be created than erased by an action. Afghanistan may be a case of this although it might not be - history will tell. Sometimes its not true. Given the statements by Israeli peaceniks and Palestinians about support for Hamas in Gaza there is probably a nett decline in Hamas terrorists (P's affiliated with H who want to fire rockets at Israeli civilians or to blow themselves up near civilians/police).

Each situation is different yet people talk about them as if they were the same.

I happen to believe that Israel needs a border based peace with Palestine and seems incapable of finding common conditions. Part of the problem is that there are so many constituencies in Israel and the politics seems to reflect that.

But I don't believe that they are creating more terrorists by the action in Gaza. The memories of the Arab street are long and distorted by propaganda. So any one offensive is just part of the legend and matters little by itself. When you control a populace that is poor, ill-educated and resentful by creating legends that blame everyone else you will always be generating terrorists - the only question is who is the target. It used to be France and Britain, it moved to America, it could well be China in 15 years. Shall we agree to discuss this in 2024 after the greatest depression?

What I would like to know is what Israel thinks its end game is here. What is the objective? What do you think?

Acts against humanity should not be treated differently based on any race, colour or creed. Geneva conventions are there for a reason and Israel seems to flout them along with the USA with impunity.

Disproportionate level of response and number of civilian casualties (almost half – women and children) is totally unacceptable imo. These days conflict is not about ‘shock and awe’ but more about winning ‘hearts and minds’.

The same covert and open support exists in both camps. Of all the criminal acts against Palastinians I’ve yet to hear of any sentencing on the killing of even Christian aid workers. There are crazy factions and people on both camps. Not just in Police but also in the Army and Politics.

Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a Jew for signing the Oslo land for peace deal. However, some Israelis see this as treachery giving away land perceived to be belonging to Israel. I find this difficult to grasp considering Palistinians are being displaced from their traditional homelands whilst Jews from Russia to Ethiopia – including the US, are being encouraged to go and live in Israel.

Hamas is a thorny issue. Democratically elected but out of step with developments imo. Palastinians under Yasser Arafat signed a peace deal and recognised the state of Israel which is a must. So to break past agreements and embark on new negotiations means more friction and calamity.

I think this was Hamas’s big mistake. I concur with Israel’s predicament about negotiating with Hamas. However, for almost over a year Hamas has kept the peace. So it could have matured and be brought to the table. (Perhaps I’m unrealistic here).

I believe Isreal also as part of this peace deal promised to ease the blockade on Gaza which it didn’t do when it came to it.

Habas of the PLO stating Hamas should have renewed the peace deal is also playing politics. The 4 year term for PLO leadership has also come to an end and new elections supposed to be held.

Thus politics on both sides are murky and resulting in power plays on both sides.

I beg to differ here re:terrorists and do believe they are creating many more. I also believe resistance will become better organised and harder to crack with each of these outrageous offensive attacks.

It is very difficult to answer your potent question as to what the end game is or what Israel is trying to achieve. Whilst Israel may for public consumption declare they wish to remove smuggling of weapons from Egypt and punish the Gaza population for supporting Hamas, I suspect their real objective is to test the new White House administration response to how they will respond to Israel. There must be great uncertainty here for them.

As for the new cease fire I think it was pre-calculated as a sign of welcome to Obama. Look we are stopping so as not to distract from the ceremony and make your life difficult. Pure cynical political gesture. Deaths of 000s plus laming and wounding of many more is pure crime against humanity for some shabby politics.

If you want to stop smuggling of weapons from Egypt there are other means much better at achieving them than carrying out such disproportionate act of war on primarily a civilian target.

You don’t stop missile attacks by decimating civilian populations. You can’t control every individual so why collectively punish so many. This is an act of terrorism in my opinion and contravenes Geneva conventions on many counts; damaging Israel’s standing on International affairs.

I’m not sure but there may have been the possibility of possible intention to draw Hezbollah and Iran into the fray hoping for some level of escalation and action by US or Israel before Bush leaves office. I’m guessing here but I always suspect what is pumped out to mass media public consumption is seldom the real reasons for these wars.

I'm not sure what Israel will have gained out of this latest spat but I can't see what has been achieved other than global realisation that Israel is way out of kilter with global opinion and needs to be reigned in by the US.

 

[dick_dastardly]

Inside Job Mate. Check out the evidence.

Cornflakes anyone ?

Haven't had chance to read the article yet Atilla, looks interesting.

dd

 

[forex999]

72 virgins - well see what they do to the poor Muslim gals!
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Diary of a Pakistani schoolgirl

feel so sorry for them

 

[tar]

72 virgins - well see what they do to the poor Muslim gals!
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Diary of a Pakistani schoolgirl

feel so sorry for them

This is against Islam , this is not islam , i am moslem and i know that our religon dont allow such thing , its a " big sin " . This happened in Afghanstan only , but all moslem contries ( saudia arabia , gaza , pakistan , eygpt ... etc ) allow education for all people female male all ages . Infact Islam encourge all moslems to educate , and its a mistake to not study and learn . This is not Islam .

 

[gamma]

This is against Islam , this is not islam , i am moslem and i know that our religon dont allow such thing , its a " big sin " . This happened in Afghanstan only , but all moslem contries ( saudia arabia , gaza , pakistan , eygpt ... etc ) allow education for all people female male all ages . Infact Islam encourge all moslems to educate , and its a mistake to not study and learn . This is not Islam .

And what about Sudan and Nigeria and Somalia
Does it only happen there as well?

 

[tar]

And what about Sudan and Nigeria and Somalia
Does it only happen there as well?

Education is allowed in all countries u will not hear such thing , in sudan there is education for all people also nigeria and somalia . If somebody make a big mistake like this its his mistake not Islam , Islam dont allow this , as i said its a big sin to attack buildings ! including schools ! even it was empty . I didnt c or hear any mslem in jordan or tv or radio or in any book : against learning and studying for males or females .

 

[gamma]

The really sad thing about all the so called good muslims is they will preach to all the kaffirs about how good islam is and protect it with their lives. If this is nor islam why are you lot not attacking the taliban if these people are tarnishing you good religion?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say
Islam like all the other mono theist religions are created and run to control through fear and subjection.
The islamic clerics are at the same point in history where the vatican was in the dark ages trying to control the populace through ignorance and fear.
The Taliban want a illerate and poor population tha can be controlled but it will not happen people will educate themselves and islam will go the way of christanity. Islam is the last bastion against the progress of man but it will go and the world will be a better place.

 

[tar]

The really sad thing about all the so called good muslims is they will preach to all the kaffirs about how good islam is and protect it with their lives. If this is nor islam why are you lot not attacking the taliban if these people are tarnishing you good religion?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say
Islam like all the other mono theist religions are created and run to control through fear and subjection.
The islamic clerics are at the same point in history where the vatican was in the dark ages trying to control the populace through ignorance and fear.
The Taliban want a illerate and poor population tha can be controlled but it will not happen people will educate themselves and islam will go the way of christanity. Islam is the last bastion against the progress of man but it will go and the world will be a better place.

Why ? whats your proof ?

I am against any stupid behavior like what they did , islam against this .If taliban did big mistakes it reflects them not islam..
But u changed the topic we talk here about terror and who to blam .

And let me tell you this Islam will not go and Islam will stay

 

[Atilla]

The really sad thing about all the so called good muslims is they will preach to all the kaffirs about how good islam is and protect it with their lives. If this is nor islam why are you lot not attacking the taliban if these people are tarnishing you good religion?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say
Islam like all the other mono theist religions are created and run to control through fear and subjection.
The islamic clerics are at the same point in history where the vatican was in the dark ages trying to control the populace through ignorance and fear.
The Taliban want a illerate and poor population tha can be controlled but it will not happen people will educate themselves and islam will go the way of christanity. Islam is the last bastion against the progress of man but it will go and the world will be a better place.

I concur with your view point here. Muslims are forever attacking external factors for their fall but few seldom question their own cultures and traditions. I can't see any sort of Islamic federation taking on the Afghans. Be good if they did but doubt it.

Perhaps a coalition of muslim countries should their troops into Afghanistan to control and poilce the region. Educate these mountain goats into humanity and bring them into the 21st century even.

 

[forex999]

This is against Islam , this is not islam , i am moslem and i know that our religon dont allow such thing , its a " big sin " . . This is not Islam .

IT IS A BIG B*** S***
The poblem with so called Western Muslim or liberal is that they do absolute f** all to promote the GOOD POINTS in Islam.

Cmon dont just gone on and say that this is not islam!
if it was not islam then majority of musilims will not preach it!!! agree!!!

cmon wake upmatey and try and modernise your religion!

 

[forex999]

Islam is the last bastion against the progress of man but it will go and the world will be a better place.

I totally agree!!!
we need to see the end of islam, it is islam that is hindering progress of the mankind!

 

[gamma]

Why ? whats your proof ?

I am against any stupid behavior like what they did , islam against this .If taliban did big mistakes it reflects them not islam..
But u changed the topic we talk here about terror and who to blam .

And let me tell you this Islam will not go and Islam will stay

The Terror is being caused in your religions name! So no one has changed the topic.

And if Christianity which was a way more powerful than islam will ever be has reformed, than islam if it wants to survive against the progress of man will learn not to stand in the way of progress.

Anyway tell us why is there no islamic federation taking on the Taliban?
maybe its because these guys practice the true islam!

 

[Atilla]

The Terror is being caused in your religions name! So no one has changed the topic.

And if Christianity which was a way more powerful than islam will ever be has reformed, than islam if it wants to survive against the progress of man will learn not to stand in the way of progress.

Anyway tell us why is there no islamic federation taking on the Taliban?
maybe its because these guys practice the true islam!

I do not believe there is any verse in the Quran about not sending girls to school.

Problem is there is no single figure head that leads it and people mix their traditions and cultures as if it is part of the book so to speak. Same goes for all other faiths and races.

It's also very difficult to come across good muslims these days.

I reckon religion is for the individual and how one conducts his affairs with respect to everything external to him.

Shouldn't mix it with governing or ruling over people.

This applies to all faiths. Otherwise religion becomes politics and that is a very big dirty word.

 

[tar]

IT IS A BIG B*** S***
The poblem with so called Western Muslim or liberal is that they do absolute f** all to promote the GOOD POINTS in Islam.

Cmon dont just gone on and say that this is not islam!
if it was not islam then majority of musilims will not preach it!!! agree!!!

cmon wake upmatey and try and modernise your religion!

" Majority of muslims will not preach it " , what u talking about , nobody agree with them . They say harsh words about them . Its clear u r anti-islam so i will not discuss with u . If u want the end of islam i can disappoint u it will not end :cheesy:

 

[tar]

The Terror is being caused in your religions name! So no one has changed the topic.

And if Christianity which was a way more powerful than islam will ever be has reformed, than islam if it wants to survive against the progress of man will learn not to stand in the way of progress.

Anyway tell us why is there no islamic federation taking on the Taliban?
maybe its because these guys practice the true islam!

Who told u that there is no islamic federation take on talban , many take on them and called them ( Khoarej ) cuz they did big mistakes against islam . But not all what they did wrong some right and some wrong , but the mistakes that they did were big and against islam , i am not here to defend talban they dont reflect islam . but i asked u what your proof when u said : "Islam is the last bastion against the progress of man " ?