sminicooper
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Talking of leopards who change their spots: remember Gorbachev and Perestroika? He rose to be General Secretary of the Politburo through being what the Party wanted and yet when he got there, with the exception of Reagan and Thatcher he was the one that did most to successfully end communism and the Soviet state. Maybe the Donald will turn out to be a similar creature?
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Jon, from the best gangster stories that I've read, where they close the drawer on someones's hand, as a lesson. "There's nothing personal in this, just keep your hand out of our till""
barjon
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split, smini
Politicians have always exaggerated their case and the frailties in the oppositions. Rarely, though, have they been so over the top and barefaced about it as they have been lately here (see Brexit
) and (even worse) over the pond. To win a political argument by resorting to lies, vitriolic abuse and pandering to bigotry and hate is a sorry state of affairs and destructive of the democratic process. You can't just palm it off afterwards by saying that you didn't really mean it and it was just political banter. You have pandered to the prejudices of your audience, wound them up and set them off. Tolerance and understanding are the casualties.
sminicooper
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split, smini
Politicians have always exaggerated their case and the frailties in the oppositions. Rarely, though, have they been so over the top and barefaced about it as they have been lately here (see Brexit
To win a political argument by resorting to lies, vitriolic abuse and pandering to bigotry and hate is a sorry state of affairs and destructive of the democratic process. You can't just palm it off afterwards by saying that you didn't really mean it and it was just political banter. You have pandered to the prejudices of your audience, wound them up and set them off. Tolerance and understanding are the casualties.
Sadly, it's the new Politics.
A New Year's Resolution maybe jon? -
* must stop listening to what politicians say they're going to do for us.
Maybe another? -
* must stop listening to what UK politicians would have done for us - if only the EU hadn't stopped them!
dbphoenix
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Sadly, it's the new Politics.
Actually there's nothing new about it. When it comes to vitriol, historical conflicts make us look like amateurs.
We go through periods in which the majority of the participants want to do what's best for the common good (granted there can be disagreements over what the common good is, but that in part is where science plays a role). The construction of the social safety net in the 30s and 40s US was an example of this. But then we go through periods in which participants are primarily concerned with what's best for themselves. We in the US have been going through this for several decades.
What makes the current situation new to most is the resurgence of the autocracy. But because they are practiced at deflection, our attention becomes focused on Democrats, Republicans, the Right, the Left, various races and ethnic groups, men, women, Us, Them when our attention ought to be focused on autocrats and oligarchs. They are the puppeteers (Piketty got this right). Some of the more enlightened understand this and work to avoid a repeat of 1789. Most, though, depend on the easily manipulable public (easily manipulable even when it knows what's going on: see Ivan the Terrible).
So much of this reminds me of the 50s. We may be evolving in tiny increments, but those tiny increments may be an illusion. The chief problem now is that we're running out of time. We no longer have fifty years to work all this out. We may not even have twenty. Perhaps we gave it our best shot after all, but it just hasn't been enough.
split, smini
Politicians have always exaggerated their case and the frailties in the oppositions. Rarely, though, have they been so over the top and barefaced about it as they have been lately here (see Brexit
To win a political argument by resorting to lies, vitriolic abuse and pandering to bigotry and hate is a sorry state of affairs and destructive of the democratic process. You can't just palm it off afterwards by saying that you didn't really mean it and it was just political banter. You have pandered to the prejudices of your audience, wound them up and set them off. Tolerance and understanding are the casualties.
Unfortunately, true, but I fail to see how there can be another way, if a nation wants to get rid of the two party system in politcs. Politics has been a kind of Old Boys' club for many decades.
How to bring in new blood that will, truly, represent the people? Start new parties that will attract the attention of everyone. Make them tune in to every speech on tv and radio. Like it or not, everyone likes a good slanging match that will be the talk of the town the next morning. We've heard it with Trump and we, also, heard it with Farage. Farage on tv, in Brussels, when he was slating the EU hierarchy helped to make him a household name.
What happened? Brexit. What happens from now on, remains to be seen. I'm worried about both outcomes but I'm just one old man. The future belongs to the young and they have to do what they can with it.
sminicooper
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db - couldn't agree more.
Perhaps I should have said "It's the new Politics of our time"
barjon
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yeah, sure. As smini says, though, "It's the new Politics of our time" and it's not politics that I have any appetite for whatsoever.
Mr. Charts
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Personally I don't believe in violent protest and if large numbers of people oppose policies when they are about to be introduced then they are entitled to peacefully protest, NOT violently. There has been a democratic election and the essence of democracy is that you accept the result whether you like it or not. I didn't like Brexit or Trump winning but the principle of the supremacy of democracy must be accepted.
You win some, you lose some. That's life. Get on with it.
Spewing hatred and venom doesn't help anybody and is pointless except to drive others to more extreme positions. Disagreement is not hatred or venom, but perceiving it as such is a characteristic of intolerance and no good ever comes of it.
Of course Hitler came to power democratically and that didn't turn out too well, but there are always exceptions.
In most Western countries it's common for demonstrations to be taken over or infiltrated by extreme leftists, anarchists or those just revelling in violence and destruction. They have to be dealt with legally by law enforcement and the courts.
One of the characteristics of a repressive regime such as Erdogan's and many throughout history is to blame dissent on foreigners financing demonstrators and them being whipped up by the media. It's with a sense of great sadness that we see that gaining traction among some in the US.
Unfortunately the US seems more prone to extremist conspiracy theories than other civilised Western countries.
Which is a shame, but hey as Brits we don't have to worry too much, it's not our country even though there may be ramifications for us.
At least we don't have a potentially extreme government led by someone who hates the media, women, disabled, sexually "different" people, Mexicans and so on and which believes that winning is fair but losing would have been because of rigging conspiracies.
Beware the madness of crowds and mobs and demonising those who disagree with you.
I'm so grateful I'm British and live in this green and pleasant land where, despite its faults, it remains free from extremism in the executive, legislature (although Corbyn et al are a threat to that) and judiciary.
You win some, you lose some. That's life. Get on with it.
Spewing hatred and venom doesn't help anybody and is pointless except to drive others to more extreme positions. Disagreement is not hatred or venom, but perceiving it as such is a characteristic of intolerance and no good ever comes of it.
Of course Hitler came to power democratically and that didn't turn out too well, but there are always exceptions.
In most Western countries it's common for demonstrations to be taken over or infiltrated by extreme leftists, anarchists or those just revelling in violence and destruction. They have to be dealt with legally by law enforcement and the courts.
One of the characteristics of a repressive regime such as Erdogan's and many throughout history is to blame dissent on foreigners financing demonstrators and them being whipped up by the media. It's with a sense of great sadness that we see that gaining traction among some in the US.
Unfortunately the US seems more prone to extremist conspiracy theories than other civilised Western countries.
Which is a shame, but hey as Brits we don't have to worry too much, it's not our country even though there may be ramifications for us.
At least we don't have a potentially extreme government led by someone who hates the media, women, disabled, sexually "different" people, Mexicans and so on and which believes that winning is fair but losing would have been because of rigging conspiracies.
Beware the madness of crowds and mobs and demonising those who disagree with you.
I'm so grateful I'm British and live in this green and pleasant land where, despite its faults, it remains free from extremism in the executive, legislature (although Corbyn et al are a threat to that) and judiciary.
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Democracy always has to be protected because it is so vulnerable to takeover by undesirables.
That is why there have to be dirty tricks departments to protect it. All has to be kept undercover from the public, because of the undemocratic way some of them work.
You and I are unfit for that sort of thing---we are too good.
Not just him, but Mussolini, Franco, Greece (remember the Generals?), Peron, Pinochet, Mugabe, Any number of them.
BTW, some might be interested in "The Plot Against America" by Philip Roth.
Atilla
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dbphoenix
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What a great many people don't understand is that liberals and conservatives (or whatever one wants to call them in whichever country one resides) represent two different realities. Only at those points at which these realities touch is any sort of progress possible. A great many people also don't understand that democracy which does not also include protections for the minority is not going to succeed, though it may appear to do so in the very short term, e.g., the US. The quest for power makes all of this very fluid, but if those who are out of power believe that their rights are being respected and protected, they are more likely to be patient and await their turn. This has not been the case since the 70s in the US and those days are not likely to return any time soon.
Pat494
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The desire for change is great. Even sometimes taking a chance on people like Trump. Will the pendulum swing back after he makes a mess of things - well maybe. I think Hitler got elected because of the current situation in a defeated Germany. The allies didn't finish the job because of President Wilson and they were able to make a comeback.
America's opposition to The League of Nations let him invade neighbouring states. Trump is unlikely to invade Mexico or Canada, so that's something. Russia was originally just a city state around Moscow and is now a sprawling giant of conquered nations.
I am sure we at all better off with the boring, humdrum bureaucrats running things and should shy away from budding Napoleons however charismatic.
America's opposition to The League of Nations let him invade neighbouring states. Trump is unlikely to invade Mexico or Canada, so that's something. Russia was originally just a city state around Moscow and is now a sprawling giant of conquered nations.
I am sure we at all better off with the boring, humdrum bureaucrats running things and should shy away from budding Napoleons however charismatic.
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Atilla
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fwiw some of my thoughts...
Trump's wall is now a fence and Obamacare repeal is more of an improvement.
In UK, Boris Johnson did the same when becoming London Mayor. Said he'll remove red Ken's congestion charge. However, not only did he not remove it, he expanded on it to Chelsea and with sponsoring cycling in London has made a fantastic transformation in London leading to less congestion and ultimately cleaner air and healthier Londoners!!!
imho There is totally an incorrect assessment of issues facing the US and the West right now and it is competition in markets from the Asian tigers, Latin America and Africa. The West has messed up in the ME in their greed to steal resources. That is the real issue that has been emerging; increased competition in the market place.
Globalisation is not the issue here. It is capitalism which polarises haves and have nots in the inequitable way it distributes reward. This operates at National and International levels.
West has had it's peak and perhaps the main argument coming out of this is that migrant labour need to go back as we don't need as much as before to produce output levels we now do.
If we don't address inequitable distribution of wealth what other way is their to resolve the issue of people at the bottom-end of the wealth spectrometer fighting for what little scraps left for them. Natural instinct here is to turn on what ever is different to you. Just territorial pissing contest on lamp posts as I like to call it.
For example to reduce costs and maximise profits help and support centres have been moved over to India in Mumbai.
Same for South West trains; driver-less trains and carriages with no conductors will not improve service or seats for passengers or reduce fairs. However, costs will be reduced and fat cats get more of the cream as unemployment rises. I do not like machines as opposed to simple manned ticket offices.
Because labour is cheap in BRIC nations production costs are lower along with price of land. No way West can compete in the long run as the technology gap narrows and disseminates becoming standardised. China and India each have their own satellite hosting service along with US, EU and Russia. More importantly, they can provide these high tech future services at lower costs than we can.
Customers and Bosses benefit from cost cutting (although I'm not sure about customers benefiting). Always better to compete in product differentiation than via price competition. Our utility costs still rising. Fat cat cream the cost cutting in bigger and bigger salary and rewards.
Who loses? In the case of the help and support centres moving to India, it is local staff who lose their jobs because they don't move to India.
Then there is international companies who locate abroad in low tax countries like Ireland, not pay any or just pay remarkably low tax. Starbucks can employ cheap labour some almost at less than min-wage depending on age etc, whilst paying no tax on billions of profit.
Solution is definitely NOT to:
1. Give tax cuts to top earners or big coporations
2. Raise tariffs hurting domestic consumers raising prices
3. Come out of Nato, whilst trying to encourage other countries to spend more on weapons
4. Get hard on Russia in Ukraine and Syria where US don't belong anyhow
5. Break out of previous free trade agreements
6. Come out global climate change agreements
Never heard of such crazy ideas but people on the bottom and some aspiring top end politicians now on the band wagon. Shocking. I do hope some people pause for thought and stop and think a little re: above points.
In some respects if the US implodes and comes down a peg or two, I reckon it will benefit the rest of the globe develop and catch up more.
As it stands US being a super power is like a black hole consuming all light and irrespective of population, want's to consume more and more at greater levels, screwing its own and rest of the people who gets in the way of big corporations supported by politicians in both, the Republican and Democratic party.
The only benefit that can possibly come out of Brexit and Trump is that people will start looking at why the protest votes are happening and examine reasons for polarisation of people and society and understand true cause.
Inequitable distribution of wealth is feeding prejudiced and territorial racism as a basic fight for survival. Attack what is different to you.
To those who may want to start jumping up and down! Not saying problem is "Capitalism or Globalisation or Free Movement of People". These very people like drug addicts see the solution as poison. On the contrary socialism performs much better in declines. Capitalism performs better in rewarding society on the way up. When there is plenty and peeps at the bottom get fed just a little bit more they are ok with it. When things are scarce and what little they have continue to be taken away from them, then they have less to lose and more ready to fight. Just simple social survival behaviour really.
Last point; there is clearly a conflict of interest in politics. Polticians should be working for the people not big business interests. Elections take place once every 4/5 years but polticians are in the pockets of Big Corp., 24 hours, 365 days a year so a phone call for pay back and favours can be received any time. This balance needs to be addressed. Remove the money from politics. Can't see it happening but one can only dream.
In summary, I'm saying the problem is inequitable distribution of wealth which the current system of politics and capitalism feeds on is showing it self in the fight for survival at the bottom end of the wealth ladder. What we are seeing is people who lived and worked alongside in jobs are now turning on each other in the streets. This is the symptom not the cause. :idea:
Current appreciation of cause and solution all totally wrong at the mo. Very dangerous for US and UK policy that will have repercussions for many years into the future imho.
Trump's wall is now a fence and Obamacare repeal is more of an improvement.
In UK, Boris Johnson did the same when becoming London Mayor. Said he'll remove red Ken's congestion charge. However, not only did he not remove it, he expanded on it to Chelsea and with sponsoring cycling in London has made a fantastic transformation in London leading to less congestion and ultimately cleaner air and healthier Londoners!!!
imho There is totally an incorrect assessment of issues facing the US and the West right now and it is competition in markets from the Asian tigers, Latin America and Africa. The West has messed up in the ME in their greed to steal resources. That is the real issue that has been emerging; increased competition in the market place.
Globalisation is not the issue here. It is capitalism which polarises haves and have nots in the inequitable way it distributes reward. This operates at National and International levels.
West has had it's peak and perhaps the main argument coming out of this is that migrant labour need to go back as we don't need as much as before to produce output levels we now do.
If we don't address inequitable distribution of wealth what other way is their to resolve the issue of people at the bottom-end of the wealth spectrometer fighting for what little scraps left for them. Natural instinct here is to turn on what ever is different to you. Just territorial pissing contest on lamp posts as I like to call it.
For example to reduce costs and maximise profits help and support centres have been moved over to India in Mumbai.
Same for South West trains; driver-less trains and carriages with no conductors will not improve service or seats for passengers or reduce fairs. However, costs will be reduced and fat cats get more of the cream as unemployment rises. I do not like machines as opposed to simple manned ticket offices.
Because labour is cheap in BRIC nations production costs are lower along with price of land. No way West can compete in the long run as the technology gap narrows and disseminates becoming standardised. China and India each have their own satellite hosting service along with US, EU and Russia. More importantly, they can provide these high tech future services at lower costs than we can.
Customers and Bosses benefit from cost cutting (although I'm not sure about customers benefiting). Always better to compete in product differentiation than via price competition. Our utility costs still rising. Fat cat cream the cost cutting in bigger and bigger salary and rewards.
Who loses? In the case of the help and support centres moving to India, it is local staff who lose their jobs because they don't move to India.
Then there is international companies who locate abroad in low tax countries like Ireland, not pay any or just pay remarkably low tax. Starbucks can employ cheap labour some almost at less than min-wage depending on age etc, whilst paying no tax on billions of profit.
Solution is definitely NOT to:
1. Give tax cuts to top earners or big coporations
2. Raise tariffs hurting domestic consumers raising prices
3. Come out of Nato, whilst trying to encourage other countries to spend more on weapons
4. Get hard on Russia in Ukraine and Syria where US don't belong anyhow
5. Break out of previous free trade agreements
6. Come out global climate change agreements
Never heard of such crazy ideas but people on the bottom and some aspiring top end politicians now on the band wagon. Shocking.
I do hope some people pause for thought and stop and think a little re: above points. In some respects if the US implodes and comes down a peg or two, I reckon it will benefit the rest of the globe develop and catch up more.
As it stands US being a super power is like a black hole consuming all light and irrespective of population, want's to consume more and more at greater levels, screwing its own and rest of the people who gets in the way of big corporations supported by politicians in both, the Republican and Democratic party.
The only benefit that can possibly come out of Brexit and Trump is that people will start looking at why the protest votes are happening and examine reasons for polarisation of people and society and understand true cause.
Inequitable distribution of wealth is feeding prejudiced and territorial racism as a basic fight for survival. Attack what is different to you.
To those who may want to start jumping up and down! Not saying problem is "Capitalism or Globalisation or Free Movement of People". These very people like drug addicts see the solution as poison. On the contrary socialism performs much better in declines. Capitalism performs better in rewarding society on the way up. When there is plenty and peeps at the bottom get fed just a little bit more they are ok with it. When things are scarce and what little they have continue to be taken away from them, then they have less to lose and more ready to fight. Just simple social survival behaviour really.
Last point; there is clearly a conflict of interest in politics. Polticians should be working for the people not big business interests. Elections take place once every 4/5 years but polticians are in the pockets of Big Corp., 24 hours, 365 days a year so a phone call for pay back and favours can be received any time. This balance needs to be addressed. Remove the money from politics. Can't see it happening but one can only dream.
In summary, I'm saying the problem is inequitable distribution of wealth which the current system of politics and capitalism feeds on is showing it self in the fight for survival at the bottom end of the wealth ladder. What we are seeing is people who lived and worked alongside in jobs are now turning on each other in the streets. This is the symptom not the cause. :idea:
Current appreciation of cause and solution all totally wrong at the mo. Very dangerous for US and UK policy that will have repercussions for many years into the future imho.
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sminicooper
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UK is still the best place in the world to be a minority/weirdo/different/unconventional/non-pc or just a regular sort of person/organisation. Needs guarding carefully though - came close to being nasty in the 1930s with the Blackshirts who had a serious following. Extremes are always a danger and there's a fine line between permissiveness and curtailment. Got nasty with the UK riots a few years ago - that's the sort of thing that can easily get out of hand when determined troublemakers get involved. We need wise politicians to handle it. I believe lady Theresa is that. Let's hope Trump turns out to be also.
