Bigbusiness
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bulldozer said:
If you need some help, there are a few hundred things wrong with the Bible mentioned here:-
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html
If you need some help, there are a few hundred things wrong with the Bible mentioned here:-
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.html
SOCRATES
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Bigbusiness, your post is inept and unhelpful.Bigbusiness said:
You miss the point Bulldozer is making.
What he is saying is correct but is not clearly expressed.
And because it is not clearly expressed you ought not to savage it with second hand skepticism, and your customary disrespect for everyone and everything.
If I understand correctly, Bulldozer is pointing out that religion goes beyond being a belief structure.
He makes a very valid point that religion encapsulates a MORAL CODE encouraging people to BEHAVE PROPERLY and not IMPROPERLY as human beings, who are at the top of the animal world in terms of absolute power, and thus we all have the RESPONSIBILITY to enact these RESPONSIBILITIES and not to TRASH THEM INSTEAD like you do !
BOOM !
All else is mere ritual of whatever religious persuasion you personally are, if you please.
Last edited:
Bigbusiness
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Socrates,
No surprise that we disagree on something
Bulldozer goes a lot further than you suggest and I don't think the points he makes are correct. There is a moral code in the Bible but I also find it one of the most violent books I have ever read and a book that can be used in different ways to justify almost any action. I have respect for those of any faith who can use the teachings in religious books to make them better people. It is a shame that there are so many that use religion to justify their poor behaviour.
No surprise that we disagree on something
Bulldozer goes a lot further than you suggest and I don't think the points he makes are correct. There is a moral code in the Bible but I also find it one of the most violent books I have ever read and a book that can be used in different ways to justify almost any action. I have respect for those of any faith who can use the teachings in religious books to make them better people. It is a shame that there are so many that use religion to justify their poor behaviour.
Interesting threads from all. I think Denny thinking is somewhere along my lines, I shall attempt to explain. However, as a Brit in Spain I must have a strong "pop" at my fellow countrymen (and Women). The news blanket, with holding of information and general "political correctness" of reporting on the popular British media machines both news channels and official press releases.
For me it is a complete lack of respect for all the poor people killed, injured and otherwise affected by the sickening events last Thursday in London.
There is no excuse for the authorities to censor information. There were 4 bombs and many people affected with an enormous number of people that were working hard and under very difficult conditions, especially in the tube tunnels. What is wrong with allowing people too know how many people were killed or injured or the extent of the injuries? Are we Brits so sensitive and protected to be allowed to know the real massacre? I personally do not think it is helpful.
Nor do I think that our politically correct politicians have any right to deem what we are allowed to know and not know.
I am NOT talking about the investigative information that is directed toward finding the perpetrators.
OK, to my original point, Religion:
What we must remember is that a very short time ago (in historical terms) "Christian" and all their derivatives were a ruthless and intolerant dictatorship. If you do not believe me read some history books!
Region is not about human compassion, it is about power and control, forcing "believers" to unquestioningly follow doctrines.
Human compassion is something completely different and crosses all beliefs AND overrides those beliefs.
Those who promote any religion as compassionate should be very careful regarding their facts.
Tolerance, mutual respect for the fellow man is not religion. It is about agreeing what is / is not acceptable in our society. The subject is wide ranging and complex. However, how we deal with those who do not conform to our agreed ideals is more interesting to analyse.
Let me draw a very simple subject for comment. Our tolerant UK society has been hit hard, we have lost friends colleagues and loved ones and worse still our fragile confidence has been knocked.
What do we Brits actually “tolerate”?
High crime. No go areas in many of our city streets. A MAJOR drug problem. Intolerable crime levels that we are told is "petty" crime. Old people living in fear. Crime victims that suffer significantly more than the criminals.
And yet we are told that we must "tolerate" anyone coming into our country (let me say here that I am very pro-European and I address my comments at most EU countries) and preaching intolerance of our way of life and values that we hold dear.
These people have no place in our society. If they want to preach INTOLERANCE toward any society they are not welcome and SHOULD NOT be tolerated by the majority of good people.
Just think what would happen if a European subject were in one of these countries and tried to preach intolerance of the indigenous beliefs?
Sorry for a disjointed post. The events of last Thursday made me very angry and the political and media reaction made my anger significantly worse. From talking to others both in UK and other EU countries the opinion on the street is not far from mine!
So, who is going to flame me for expressing what I believe is popular belief? Finally, just to point out the PC crap, I have just heard that the suspected murders were British! Why not say more correctly that they were British passport holders and of ??? descent?
For me it is a complete lack of respect for all the poor people killed, injured and otherwise affected by the sickening events last Thursday in London.
There is no excuse for the authorities to censor information. There were 4 bombs and many people affected with an enormous number of people that were working hard and under very difficult conditions, especially in the tube tunnels. What is wrong with allowing people too know how many people were killed or injured or the extent of the injuries? Are we Brits so sensitive and protected to be allowed to know the real massacre? I personally do not think it is helpful.
Nor do I think that our politically correct politicians have any right to deem what we are allowed to know and not know.
I am NOT talking about the investigative information that is directed toward finding the perpetrators.
OK, to my original point, Religion:
What we must remember is that a very short time ago (in historical terms) "Christian" and all their derivatives were a ruthless and intolerant dictatorship. If you do not believe me read some history books!
Region is not about human compassion, it is about power and control, forcing "believers" to unquestioningly follow doctrines.
Human compassion is something completely different and crosses all beliefs AND overrides those beliefs.
Those who promote any religion as compassionate should be very careful regarding their facts.
Tolerance, mutual respect for the fellow man is not religion. It is about agreeing what is / is not acceptable in our society. The subject is wide ranging and complex. However, how we deal with those who do not conform to our agreed ideals is more interesting to analyse.
Let me draw a very simple subject for comment. Our tolerant UK society has been hit hard, we have lost friends colleagues and loved ones and worse still our fragile confidence has been knocked.
What do we Brits actually “tolerate”?
High crime. No go areas in many of our city streets. A MAJOR drug problem. Intolerable crime levels that we are told is "petty" crime. Old people living in fear. Crime victims that suffer significantly more than the criminals.
And yet we are told that we must "tolerate" anyone coming into our country (let me say here that I am very pro-European and I address my comments at most EU countries) and preaching intolerance of our way of life and values that we hold dear.
These people have no place in our society. If they want to preach INTOLERANCE toward any society they are not welcome and SHOULD NOT be tolerated by the majority of good people.
Just think what would happen if a European subject were in one of these countries and tried to preach intolerance of the indigenous beliefs?
Sorry for a disjointed post. The events of last Thursday made me very angry and the political and media reaction made my anger significantly worse. From talking to others both in UK and other EU countries the opinion on the street is not far from mine!
So, who is going to flame me for expressing what I believe is popular belief? Finally, just to point out the PC crap, I have just heard that the suspected murders were British! Why not say more correctly that they were British passport holders and of ??? descent?
BB,
The Bible is also a history book. It tells you the behaviour of mankind when they shose to excercise thier choice to do the wrong things hence all the wars killings etc.[in book]
All the advice given in those TWO books is INSPIRED by GOD [2nd timothy 3:16]
for the benefit of the human race. YES, there are many bad and violent things in the Bible but its all the result of the people who make wrong decisions and chose to ignore the good advice.
Soc,
Glad to see someone out there has some common sense and can understand the points I'm making. But sadly the majority will always be in the wrong when it comes to wisdom issues.
Glad to see that your smarter than most.
Bull
The Bible is also a history book. It tells you the behaviour of mankind when they shose to excercise thier choice to do the wrong things hence all the wars killings etc.[in book]
All the advice given in those TWO books is INSPIRED by GOD [2nd timothy 3:16]
for the benefit of the human race. YES, there are many bad and violent things in the Bible but its all the result of the people who make wrong decisions and chose to ignore the good advice.
Soc,
Glad to see someone out there has some common sense and can understand the points I'm making. But sadly the majority will always be in the wrong when it comes to wisdom issues.
Glad to see that your smarter than most.
Bull
Bigbusiness
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MarvinS said:
Yes, it is nonsense. Look what you can find in Moby Dick:-
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html
No real problem with religion ..big problem with the way some people internalise it and attach a specific meaning to it that empowers them to commit outrageous acts in it's name...not much different to trading is it ?.....when we all look at a price we see the same number and yet come away with a multititude of different views on what that number means to us personally and what actions we are going to take based upon that perception...
Bigbusiness
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bulldozer said:BB,
The Bible is also a history book. It tells you the behaviour of mankind when they shose to excercise thier choice to do the wrong things hence all the wars killings etc.[in book]
All the advice given in those TWO books is INSPIRED by GOD [2nd timothy 3:16]
for the benefit of the human race. YES, there are many bad and violent things in the Bible but its all the result of the people who make wrong decisions and chose to ignore the good advice.
Soc,
Glad to see someone out there has some common sense and can understand the points I'm making. But sadly the majority will always be in the wrong when it comes to wisdom issues.
Glad to see that your smarter than most.
Bull
The problem I have is that the "advise" can be contradictory. For example, we are told not to kill but are also given lots of examples of when to kill. So we can then use the Bible to condemn those that kill while justifying our reasons for killing. Sometimes I can't see the morality in that.
But is the bible a true account of events or is doctored to suit situations at the time?
In very recent history, we can find examples of doctoring of events.
We should not take the bible at face value. There have been many contemporary works that have disproved huge amounts of what is written there. That does make those who question any religious book non-believers, or more correctly non-practitioners of the goodness in any faith.
In very recent history, we can find examples of doctoring of events.
We should not take the bible at face value. There have been many contemporary works that have disproved huge amounts of what is written there. That does make those who question any religious book non-believers, or more correctly non-practitioners of the goodness in any faith.
To base one's whole life on the contents of a book seems to me to be a bit irrational. And is it only these books that can pass on a MORAL code as it was put, can I not have a moral code or is that not allowed because I am an atheist?
These religious books you mention are hardly historically factual and besides religion today has become a "pick & mix" religion. Christians especially decide which parts of the book they like and then believe those bits. The bits they don't like they disregard saying "well that is not what was actually meant" in those days.
As I have mentioned before believe what an earth you like as long as it does not harm other people and please do not try to brainwash other people.
The brainwashing is an insidious part of religion with the expansion of religious schools particularly Muslim, Catholic & C of E. Schools are for educating people not for indoctrinating children with bigoted and small minded views of the world. Religion should have no place in education or governments.
These religious books you mention are hardly historically factual and besides religion today has become a "pick & mix" religion. Christians especially decide which parts of the book they like and then believe those bits. The bits they don't like they disregard saying "well that is not what was actually meant" in those days.
As I have mentioned before believe what an earth you like as long as it does not harm other people and please do not try to brainwash other people.
The brainwashing is an insidious part of religion with the expansion of religious schools particularly Muslim, Catholic & C of E. Schools are for educating people not for indoctrinating children with bigoted and small minded views of the world. Religion should have no place in education or governments.
Denny said:
You Sir are misinformed, these types of schools are on the decline or at best static in number due to those that hold views similar to yours. Have you ever had first hand experience of attending any of these schools? There is never any attempt to brainwash the pupils, they are simply taught to understand the religion, love their neighbours, be upstanding members of the community and obey God. What is wrong with this?
You amongst others castigate Bulldozer for his posts because they shed light on Christianity and its teachings. If he were telling dirty jokes you would all be applauding him and telling him what a swell guy he is. That gentlemen is a sign of the times and one of the reasons we find ourselves in this predicament why we are at war with a faceless enemy who has no nation creed or colour.
LION63 said:
Sorry Sir (Lion) you are completely and utterly wrong!
The understanding of religion, love thy neighbours etc .. obey God is the various interpretations of the teachings of God. God has NEVER taught, ever. Simply because some organisation chooses to interpret what God might want us to be is not fact!
As I have posted earlier today you would do well to read history and see that christianity was until recently a very barbaric organisation with intolerance of any who questioned the teachings and doctrines. Did so called (your words) upstanding members of the community love their neighbours, the religious warriors who raged through France (and many other countries) killing, raping and pillaging obey god or the teachings of so called upstanding respected members of the community?
Sorry, caring for our fellow men and upholding democracy and decency is not religion based.
All church leaders of ANY faith do not tolerate insubordination or any questioning of the "correctness" of their teachings. I have first hand knowledge of a child being chastised at a christian school for asking how a virgin birth was medically possible.
Tolerance is not born in church!
Denny,
You have no knowledge whatsoever of what my religious views may or may not be so how would you be able to ascertain if I am uncomfortable with other views or not?
Euro_d,
Your post reveals the extent of your knowledge of any particular religion/faith and as such it would be pointless pursuing any dialogue along these lines. The followers of the various faiths/religions will be able to decide for themselves as to the accuracy of your assertions and comments.
As I have mentioned above, my knowledge or lack of history is not an issue that I would need to advance on these boards other than to say to you that the little knowledge I do have would certainly dwarf yours.
You have no knowledge whatsoever of what my religious views may or may not be so how would you be able to ascertain if I am uncomfortable with other views or not?
Euro_d,
Your post reveals the extent of your knowledge of any particular religion/faith and as such it would be pointless pursuing any dialogue along these lines. The followers of the various faiths/religions will be able to decide for themselves as to the accuracy of your assertions and comments.
As I have mentioned above, my knowledge or lack of history is not an issue that I would need to advance on these boards other than to say to you that the little knowledge I do have would certainly dwarf yours.
LION63 said:
I concluded that you were uncomfortable because of the way you accused me of "castigating" with no basis whatsoever. You have views, which I find quite frankly ridiculous. I am sure you find my views quite ridiculous also.
I can live with it and I hope you can !!!
