Terrorism????...Blame America!!!!

[gamma]

Yes 200 million INDIAN MUSLIMS probably want the same as they fellow Hindu Indians
Really the site for you is FFI.

 

[dick_dastardly]

Might be of interest to some.

Michael Buerk talks to Dutch politician Geert Wilders about his decision to make a provocative anti-Islamic film.



dd

 

[Atilla]

Bush chides Beijing over rights - with a straight face...

 

[dick_dastardly]

Al-Qaeda's Enemy Within

Could Osama bin Laden's erstwhile comrades be responsible for bringing about the collapse of al Qaeda?

The BBC's security correspondent, Frank Gardner OBE talks to a former ally of Osama bin Laden who is now working to turn Islamist sentiment against al Qaeda.

As a leader of a jihadist organisation committed to overthrowing the Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi, Nu'man bin Othman was regarded by Osama bin Laden as an ally.

However, shortly before 9/11 bin Othman cautioned bin Laden against targeting the United States.

In this programme he explains why he now criticises publicly al Qaeda's strategy and lack of theological justification.

Others to whom bin Laden might have looked to for support have turned against him too.

Dr Fadl, one of the architects of the most extreme jihadist ideology now calls al Qaeda's leadership "extremely immoral".

Sheikh Salman al Oudah, a Saudi religious scholar once credited by bin Laden with inspiring him to take up "my duty of enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong," has recently denounced the al Qaeda leader.

Furthermore, the targeting of Muslim civilians by al Qaeda affiliates in Iraq and elsewhere is undermining popular support.

All this provides some cause for optimism. But with a resilient Taliban in Afghanistan and the Pakistani tribal areas sheltering al Qaeda, is it too early to talk about the unravelling of the global jihad network?

Frank Gardner examines how the war of ideas within the jihadi movement is becoming as important as the military frontline.

BBC iPlayer - Analysis: Al Qaeda's Enemy Within




dd

 

[bhavin]

ha ha ha..............
just cud not stop laughing at this!
****! i did not know my original post would create so much of discussion.

but tony Blair keeps telling you Brits that ISLAM is a peace loving religion, but show me one country where, Muslims are in a minority, and they live peacefully!! - NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY on earth

You Brits, remember the famous speech by the Muslims in Trafalgar Square, where they openly said that they want to convert the whole of Britain to ISLAM!

No wonder the Nazis and the BNP are getting stronger!

you are really talking nonsense now!!!
Yes indeed Tony Blair is right when he says that ISLAM is a pece loving religion.

I am a Hindu, and have been to a mosque, though have no intention of converting!
but respect Islam!

i am going out with a pakistani girl, and not once has she asked me to convert!
yes her family is not happy with it, but teh same goes for the old folks in most religion.

Islam is the fastest growing religion, and surely not all converted because of bullet
you talking nonsense, maybe you should read the holy quran, and chjeck that the verses are interpreted correctly!

 

[gamma]

Eh!not quite right Idon't want to get embrioled into any debates with you chaps but Islam is not the fastest growing religion but the fastest exploding due to the high birth rate amongst muslims.The fastest growing is actually Evengical christinity.Islam actually loses more to conversion than any other religion.

by the way!
Not a christian

 

[Atilla]

Eh!not quite right Idon't want to get embrioled into any debates with you chaps but Islam is not the fastest growing religion but the fastest exploding due to the high birth rate amongst muslims.The fastest growing is actually Evengical christinity.Islam actually loses more to conversion than any other religion.

by the way!
Not a christian

Interesting stats Gamma, currently reading Richard Dawkins - God Delusion book and apparently only 1 in 12 people adopt a religion different to that of their parents.

I would also venture out and say of the 1 who does adopt a different faith, I bet his/her parents were not too hot on the subject or way over the top imo.

What does that say about most people and their faiths?

I will venture out and state that imho the so called most fundamentalists of believers are the ones who are more into the practice and behaviour rather than the faith and the essence of good will.

They are racist by virtue of their intollerence of other faiths. They are the ones who have their heads stuck up their own rectums and they can't see daylight. I bet you all know who you are too...


"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience..." :cheesy:

 

[Marwan2010]

Islam is not the fastest growing religion but the fastest exploding due to the high birth rate amongst muslims.

Coming from a Muslim Totally agree!

 

[trendie]

Interesting stats Gamma, currently reading Richard Dawkins - God Delusion book and apparently only 1 in 12 people adopt a religion different to that of their parents.
........

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience..." :cheesy:

great book.
if you like that, you'll like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.
(there are some pretty heavy-duty talks given by these guys on youtube.)

then go get yourself converted to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

[Atilla]

great book.
if you like that, you'll like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.
(there are some pretty heavy-duty talks given by these guys on youtube.)

then go get yourself converted to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Well I wouldn't say I like it yet but almost half way through the book.

He raises some interesting questions but most of the time he picks fights and arguements dating back to middle ages and 200 years ago.


I would compare having faith in God to having love in ones heart.

Anybody who has been in love; has felt it and can't deny love exists.

Now let's apply science to prove love exists...

1. You can't see it.
2. You can't touch it.
3. You can't hear it.
4. You can't smell it.
5. You can't taste it.

If I were to say prove your love scientifically, what can anyone say or do???



Secondly, he is obsessed with Charles Darwin. Yes the guy made some interesting discoveries but it begs the questions:

1. Why do we still have apes on earth and what's wrong with them that they have not developed and stayed where they are... I suppose they don't like change.

2. Why after all these years we still have single cell species like ameoba. In fact one could argue we also have single cell human beings to some extent... :cheesy:

3. If natural selection is the elimination of unsuccessful species / individuals, how come man stopped killing each other and recognises the 10 commandments to be fair cop.

I reckon if you take CDs theory to the nth degree there would be anarchy in the world and it has been religion that has tamed man to the righteous path.

We all know we are doing wrong even when we are doing it.

There is a consciense beyond the physical animal in man... It's called soul.

Once again you can't apply science to soul.

Problem with Dawkins is that anything outside the realm of science doesn't exist for him... Just as one can't prove God's existence, I doubt anyone can prove his non-existence. I don't really care either. Do whats right for you dude!!!

I'm guessing all will be revealed in the Selfish Gene which he also mentions in his book.

Maybe it's worth opening another thread on his book.

Finally, he poses the question "Who created the creator?" which is a very good question...

This is like asking cave man if he can take a trip to the moon and back... Errrr... oooh arghhh. I'm sure when the time is right all will be explained...

 

[dick_dastardly]

Looks like it's well and truly a God Heads versus Atheists thread.

It''ll be a closed thread by this time next week then :cheesy:

Anyway, don't know if anyone listened to the BBC link I posted. The one thing that really caught my attention was when one of the Al Qaeda guys conceded that you can go to hell for killing innocent people.

All we need do now if figure out a way to convince these religious wackos that it is quite possible to be both innocent AND an infidel and it's job done


dd

 

[Gumping]

He raises some interesting questions but most of the time he picks fights and arguements dating back to middle ages and 200 years ago.

And the following questions aren't?

1. Why do we still have apes on earth and what's wrong with them that they have not developed and stayed where they are... I suppose they don't like change.

Probably the same reason why we have one of the most 'enlightened' societies on earth, yet still have poverty, sickness, social inequality, joblessness, illiterate people....not everyone evolves

2. Why after all these years we still have single cell species like ameoba. In fact one could argue we also have single cell human beings to some extent... :cheesy:

See above

3. If natural selection is the elimination of unsuccessful species / individuals, how come man stopped killing each other and recognises the 10 commandments to be fair cop.

No Christian has ever killed anyone else in the history of the religion?

I reckon if you take CDs theory to the nth degree there would be anarchy in the world.

Explain

There is a consciense beyond the physical animal in man... It's called soul.

:clap: I agree! But this is nothing to do with religion, and not invalidated by evolution (Neither is religion).

 

[Atilla]

He raises some interesting questions but most of the time he picks fights and arguements dating back to middle ages and 200 years ago.

And the following questions aren't?

Well no not really as they are based as of today. Not from Thomas Aquinas's 5 proofs from the 13th century. Or even Charles Darwins theory. You hinting my questions and considerations aren't worthy enough for debate?

1. Why do we still have apes on earth and what's wrong with them that they have not developed and stayed where they are... I suppose they don't like change.

Probably the same reason why we have one of the most 'enlightened' societies on earth, yet still have poverty, sickness, social inequality, joblessness, illiterate people....not everyone evolves

Not everyone evolves! So what is the reason for the change? That's not very scientific is it? Where is the consistency. It's all very well looking for scientific proof and yet pay no heed for inconsistencies.

I'm sorry but I fail to be convinced by Charles Darwins theory of evolution. Whilst it sounds plausible it doesn't hold up to what I'm seeing and dare I say you too. How do you explain the difference in us all. Some change and some not. That is not science. That is ad hoc...

Should you not consider the whys and ifs... ?

2. Why after all these years we still have single cell species like ameoba. In fact one could argue we also have single cell human beings to some extent... :cheesy:

See above

3. If natural selection is the elimination of unsuccessful species / individuals, how come man stopped killing each other and recognises the 10 commandments to be fair cop.

No Christian has ever killed anyone else in the history of the religion?

Point taken but there are also many Christians and other faiths who have never killed anyone else and there are atheists, infidels, gentiles and pagans who have killed.

Let's forget them and ask for your opinion of the 10 commandments... Do you dispute any to be unfair and if so which ones on what grounds?

I reckon if you take Charles Darwin's theory to the nth degree there would be anarchy in the world.

Explain

Well when the Titanic was sinking men gave way to women and children? Why didn't the survival of the fittest and strongest take place? Such heroic actions abound all around us everyday.

If you want to come up with a scientific theory it needs to be consistent and apply equally to all people. Otherwise it's not very scientific is it?

Why are some people cowards and some brave? Charles Darwins theory has lots of holes that don't add up.

When I say to the N th degree, it should be scientificly consistent and hold through time place and location.

Think about it... 2+2 is the same here as it is in Timbaktu.

Mass of 2kg drops at the same speed here in London as it does in New York today and tomorrow.... That's science.

There is a consciense beyond the physical animal in man... It's called soul.

:clap: I agree! But this is nothing to do with religion, and not invalidated by evolution (Neither is religion).

Ok so do you agree that science can not be applied to the soul and emotions.

My point simply is how can anyone apply scientific theory to what can't be observed by the five senses, doesn't have mass or speed.

How can one apply science to emotions and feelings that have no element? Dawkins mentions the elements and then glosses over them.

To look for scientific proof is like looking for zero. Nothing surely exists. Who can dispute it? If with have +1 and -1 there must surely be zero.

Where would man and science be without the zero?

Who can prove that zero exists???

You can demonstrate it but can you prove it.


Still reading the book and certainly excellent in all the questions it raises. To add more material, he applies Charles Darwins theory to the stars and galaxies. Basically, my understanding was that stars and galaxies evolve over time. They die (collapsing black holes) and some are born (exploding stars). Others evolve and change.

Mind blowing stuff and fair enough I say. I can relate to where he is coming from and don't dispute it. It equally holds great scientific interest to me now. I may live until I'm 70 and what we are talking about here are changes that take place millions of light years away, where change takes place equally in millions of years????

I'm still genuinely interested but what is the point???

By the way this was from the section which discusses WHY THERE IS ALMOST CERTAINLY IS NO GOD (Capitalised in his book).


My summary of the book so far still holds that anything outside the realm of science doesn't exist for Richard Dawkins.

Perhaps the best way I can put my perspective forward is that I would still like to hold on to my imaginary belief in the number zero as I find it very useful for summing up life...

 

[dick_dastardly]

hmmm ?

Well now then, I guess it's all very well and good to claim God is on your side isn't it ?


but then when you lose out to an Israeli ?

Well, then I think you've got some explaining to do haven't you ? :whistling

The Iranians Dilemma

God is Great :cheesy:

dd

 

[FXSCALPER2]

Blaming America for terrorism makes perfect sense when you think about it. The US is like a husband who beats his wife and then complains that she is bitchy towards him.

As a side note, isn't it amusing to see the US trying to kill people whol want to kill themselves anyway? Bloody stupid.

 

[cryten]

If I were to say prove your love scientifically, what can anyone say or do???

Now let's apply science to prove love exists...

1. You can't see it.
2. You can't touch it.
3. You can't hear it.
4. You can't smell it.
5. You can't taste it.

Hmm unless God is a drug dealer and fills them little ecstasy pills with lots of love feelings then I really think science can (and does) have an answer for that.

Secondly, he is obsessed with Charles Darwin. Yes the guy made some interesting discoveries but it begs the questions:

When did Darwin become the only alternative to the non religious?

1. Why do we still have apes on earth and what's wrong with them that they have not developed and stayed where they are... I suppose they don't like change.

2. Why after all these years we still have single cell species like ameoba. In fact one could argue we also have single cell human beings to some extent... :cheesy:

3. If natural selection is the elimination of unsuccessful species / individuals, how come man stopped killing each other and recognises the 10 commandments to be fair cop.

I reckon if you take CDs theory to the nth degree there would be anarchy in the world and it has been religion that has tamed man to the righteous path.

Anarchy ok, so you consider the following acceptable behaviour?

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


What about this one? Pretty cool don't you think?

Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)


Nice, now of course that's the old bible, God felt like a jerk and that he was losing some followers so he said unto man, ya know what just choose the bits you like to beleive and discard the rest.

We all know we are doing wrong even when we are doing it.

See above, depends really?

There is a consciense beyond the physical animal in man... It's called soul.

I beleive in a consciense and that in itself evolves through time in what is fundamentally right and wrong but would you have the same consciense hundreds of years ago when it may have been OK to rape and have slaves and whatever else I'm forgetting? And yet most of the lovely privileged people of that time, I assume beleived in their own consciense too.


Once again you can't apply science to soul.

Once again your clutching at straws, is science a fully explored and known subject or are we still learning and experimenting and studying?


Problem with Dawkins is that anything outside the realm of science doesn't exist for him... Just as one can't prove God's existence, I doubt anyone can prove his non-existence. I don't really care either. Do whats right for you dude!!!

I'm guessing all will be revealed in the Selfish Gene which he also mentions in his book.

Maybe it's worth opening another thread on his book.

Finally, he poses the question "Who created the creator?" which is a very good question...

This is like asking cave man if he can take a trip to the moon and back... Errrr... oooh arghhh. I'm sure when the time is right all will be explained...

Yes it's either Darwin or Jesus Christ/Muhammad/Budda/Shiva (pick one) **sigh**

Btw do you really think dinosaur bones were planted on earth by the devil to trick us? ROTFLMAO

I mean what hope do scientists have of educating you lot with answers like that!

I really hope nasa can find some way to export humans to mars, Ship the muslims and christians there to blow each other up and let the rest of us get on with it

 

[Atilla]

I really hope nasa can find some way to export humans to mars, Ship the muslims and christians there to blow each other up and let the rest of us get on with it

Same old story I guess. Arn't you bundling people into little herds and groups which is what religion essentially does and then judging them?

Even anarchists in their aspiration to demonstrate against the status quo all end up looking like each other in their hair cuts, tattoos and clothes...


In reply to your questions...

1. You like Dorkin's skip over one of the most important of questions such as the soul and emotions.

Do you really believe science has some drug form of medical treatment to all the sad souls out in the world?

Do you seriously believe, drugs and alcohol make you happy and fullfill your senses?

Even the filthy rich end up committing suicide so how does sex, drugs and rock n roll get explained away by science, Darwin or Dorkins?

I still hold the view that to use the word science to the theory of evolution and applying it to humans is fudging the issue. Science is precise, exact and reproducable in experiments. It does not account for the billions of idiosynchrosies of individual human beings.

Look in a nut shell, humans are curious little creatures want to know everything and control their lives. They want to live for ever.

A. We don't know where we come from.
B. We have relatively a short insignificant life span.
C. We don't know where we end up.

So what is the scientific answer to it all?


2. You take so called religious text which no doubt has been modified and re-written through out the ages as gospel. Text probably intended to men with IQs of maybe 10, during the dog eat dog world of medieval periods.

In fact some of the listings pretty much go on today in some cultures and places but the problem is we interpret the acts of men as if they epitomise the creators devine guidance and order because men use religion to justify their acts.

I concur with your point here but I make a distinction between what is right and what is wrong on my own conscience and logic not from what I am preached by two wooden planks.

I may have been wrong with my statement "We all know we are doing wrong even when we are doing it."

In some cases what is wrong can be tought as right and religious leaders / spoke persons are undoubtedly guilty of this. I suppose man has to judge and choose the path he treads for himself. Beauty of life I guess coupled with many thorns attached to that choice.

3. I can relate to your write up about the consciense that evolves and changes through time. Good point. I guess these days you could pretty much get locked up for raping ones wife which might well have been laughed at few decades back.

According to Dorkins book, in our European cradle of civilisation women didn't have the vote until;

UK 1928
France 1945
Belgium 1946
Switzerland 1971 (this was a shocker to me)

4. I don't think I'm clutching at straws. I think simple people attribute to God all that is positive that they don't understand and to the devil all that is evil. Not a bad pigeon box to compartmentalise the vast universe we live in.

Some people take a very arrogant airs with science as explaining everything under the sun. The power of the mind and the soul are still mysterys to man despite our exponential development.

On a program on TV recently about Dorkin's views on evolution allocated all of 10 seconds to explain the soul as couple of neurons grouping together whilst banging their drums about how ridicilous concept of miracles were.

Typically we concentrate on what we know rather than what we don't.

5. I pick science. But I don't see science refuting the creator. The jury is out pending further evidence. I don't see anything in God as the creator refuting science either.

Where did the law of gravity originate from? It all has to have come from somewhere. Instead of x let's call it God until we find it's source.

6. No I don't think dinosaur bones were planted on earth by the devil.

Do you believe Charles Darwin's theory also applies to the universe? That is some galaxies die. Some are born. AND some are continuing to evolve? We are talking about billions and billions of galaxies over billions and billions of years?

Do you believe in the natural selection of the galaxies and the elimination of unsuccessful galaxies?

Don't blame you as so do I... I say this sincerely but what is precisely the relevance to me until a meteor decides to land on Earth???

If a meteor is heading to earth - of all the billions of years, why now, why earth and why me? God only knows. :cheesy:

I reckon some quiete contemplation and prayer over a glass of wine, will make me more happy for the journey that lies ahead, toasting the joy of life.

 

[Jiuk]

Who is blaming the US for the kidnapping of the Sth Koreans ?

The US is directly responsible for the death of at least hundreds of thousands in Iraq, the displacement of over 4 million refugees. I might add that Syria and Jordan are getting almost no assistance in helping these refugees. A recent UN study revealed that over a third of the population of Iraq is in urgent need of aid.

If you want to talk about terror, this is terror on a grand scale. Oh, sorry, they are just collateral damage. Osama Bin Laden is an amateur in comparison.

"The US is directly responsible for the death of at least hundreds of thousands in Iraq"...Hundreds of thousands? Wow who knew the tangos used nerf balls.

 

[Jiuk]

you are really talking nonsense now!!!
Yes indeed Tony Blair is right when he says that ISLAM is a pece loving religion.

I am a Hindu, and have been to a mosque, though have no intention of converting!
but respect Islam!

i am going out with a pakistani girl, and not once has she asked me to convert!
yes her family is not happy with it, but teh same goes for the old folks in most religion.

Islam is the fastest growing religion, and surely not all converted because of bullet
you talking nonsense, maybe you should read the holy quran, and chjeck that the verses are interpreted correctly!

Isalm is the fastest growing religion where?

 

[Jiuk]

I am hesitant to call Islam a religion. Its more like a cult which has borrowed from Judaism and Christianity without really bringing in anything original. It seems in fact that its method is to outright stifle knowledge and creativity. It is, if we judge by the violence that it fosters and promotes, a cult of death and darkness.
It is interesting to note that in the US, a significant number, if not he majority, of converts to Islam comes from hard core convicts.

Humans are not attracted to death and darkness but are genetically wired to love life and light.
This is evidenced by the fact that once the light of Christianity shines upon even the darkest corners of Islam they lose members trough conversion to the religion of life and light and love at a record pace. Christianity is by far the fastest growing religion on the world and for the right reason.
Deep down Islam knows this and that is why they are scared to death to allow Churches and temples of other religions in Saudi Arabia.