madasafish
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"but then the real prize is the Draft Convention. Deafening silence."
I assume you mean draft Constitution?
Does this mean we will getavote onit?
I assume you mean draft Constitution?
Does this mean we will getavote onit?
madasafish
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We went to war for the following reasons as stated by Messrs Bush and Balir (in no particular order):
1. To remove Saddam Hussein as Leader of Iraq. Achieved.
2. To destroy WMD. Not achieved.
3. To prevent Al Quaida using Iraq as a base. Achieved (even if they were not using it)
4.To bring democarcy to Iraq and show the Middle East what democracy can do for a nation. Not yet achieved.
5. To stop global terrorism. Failed
6. To stop S Hussein financing the Palestinian suicide bombers and thus enable a middle East peace. Achieved 1 st part: failed 2nd part.
Score:
Achieved: 2.5
Failed: 2.5
No result yet: 1
So less than 50 % success
Other benefits? Not many.
Other losses? Well it has encouraged all the fanatics who thought the US was against the Muslim religion to believe they were right..
Maybe history will prove me wrong..
All other jusgements welcome... just don't all agree at once
1. To remove Saddam Hussein as Leader of Iraq. Achieved.
2. To destroy WMD. Not achieved.
3. To prevent Al Quaida using Iraq as a base. Achieved (even if they were not using it)
4.To bring democarcy to Iraq and show the Middle East what democracy can do for a nation. Not yet achieved.
5. To stop global terrorism. Failed
6. To stop S Hussein financing the Palestinian suicide bombers and thus enable a middle East peace. Achieved 1 st part: failed 2nd part.
Score:
Achieved: 2.5
Failed: 2.5
No result yet: 1
So less than 50 % success
Other benefits? Not many.
Other losses? Well it has encouraged all the fanatics who thought the US was against the Muslim religion to believe they were right..
Maybe history will prove me wrong..
All other jusgements welcome... just don't all agree at once
Grubs
OK Well at least we have moved on from the assertion that the war was in some way illegal or undemocratic. What will it achieve in the long run? Who knows. But in his address yesterday Bush spelt out not just his reasons (again) but the potential he sees. Worth reading. Maybe that will help answer some of your concerns.
Mad
Yes " Constitution" - I sit corrected. A vote is merely the tactics of the day depending on the reading of the SM view. Plan A is to avoid wakening them - hence the first tack was "merely tidying up" and when that was sussed the next is not to talk about it (silence). In Mr Blair's nightmare scenario if there is really widespread opposition to it then he can call a referendum without nailing his colours irretrievably to the mast. Whatever the result he's OK with the club. If he wins he's in good. If he loses he tried with honour (but after all he is a democrat). Of course I could be wrong.
OK Well at least we have moved on from the assertion that the war was in some way illegal or undemocratic. What will it achieve in the long run? Who knows. But in his address yesterday Bush spelt out not just his reasons (again) but the potential he sees. Worth reading. Maybe that will help answer some of your concerns.
Mad
Yes " Constitution" - I sit corrected. A vote is merely the tactics of the day depending on the reading of the SM view. Plan A is to avoid wakening them - hence the first tack was "merely tidying up" and when that was sussed the next is not to talk about it (silence). In Mr Blair's nightmare scenario if there is really widespread opposition to it then he can call a referendum without nailing his colours irretrievably to the mast. Whatever the result he's OK with the club. If he wins he's in good. If he loses he tried with honour (but after all he is a democrat). Of course I could be wrong.
And it has also succeeded in making Alqaeda into global franchise like Macdonalds!! with all sorts of small groups carrying out sucide bombings all over the world esp after the 'end' of the Iraqi war. We entertain Bush and our embassy and HSBC get bombed in Turkey.................like i said b4 the only solution would be the resolution of the Palestinian situation thereby isolating the terrorists from popular opinion in the Islamic and Arab states.
On a funny note, i just saw one female demonstrator on TV carrying the placard which read 'The only Bush i trust is my Bush' with a graphic picture of the Bush she trusts.......................lol
On a funny note, i just saw one female demonstrator on TV carrying the placard which read 'The only Bush i trust is my Bush' with a graphic picture of the Bush she trusts.......................lol
madasafish
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" (but after all he(Blair) is a democrat). Of course I could be wrong."
How dare you suggest that:
1. reforming the House of Lords with your preferred option a 100% appointed House
2. Allowing Scots MPs - who will not have any new "reformed " NHS trusts in Scotland - to vote for them in England
3. Having no referendum on the EC constitution
4. Proposing to reform the judicial sytem to ensure all judges are appointed by.. a committe appointed by the.. PM (?)
is not in any way 100% democratic..
"You can vote for anyone you like as long as it's Labour"
How dare you suggest that:
1. reforming the House of Lords with your preferred option a 100% appointed House
2. Allowing Scots MPs - who will not have any new "reformed " NHS trusts in Scotland - to vote for them in England
3. Having no referendum on the EC constitution
4. Proposing to reform the judicial sytem to ensure all judges are appointed by.. a committe appointed by the.. PM (?)
is not in any way 100% democratic..
"You can vote for anyone you like as long as it's Labour"
Hi Guys,
I've pinched this from another board, but I liked it so much that I thought that I'd share it with you here, so here goes:
A national paper asked various people what they would say to Mr. Bush if they were to meet him during his visit - here's a classic:
: Frederick Forsyth: You will find yourself assailed on every hand by some pretty pretentious characters collectively known as the British left. They traditionally believe they have a monopoly on morality and that your recent actions preclude you from the club. You opposed and destroyed the world's most blood-encrusted dictator. This is quite unforgivable.
I beg you to take no notice. The British left intermittently erupts like a pustule upon the buttock of a rather good country. Seventy years ago it opposed mobilisation against Adolf Hitler and worshipped the other genocide, Josef Stalin.
It has marched for Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Andropov. It has slobbered over Ceausescu and Mugabe. It has demonstrated against everything and everyone American for a century. Broadly speaking, it hates your country first, mine second.
Eleven years ago something dreadful happened. Maggie was ousted, Ronald retired, the Berlin wall fell and Gorby abolished communism. All the left's idols fell and its demons retired. For a decade there was nothing really to hate. But thank the Lord for his limitless mercy. Now they can applaud Saddam, Bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il... and hate a God-fearing Texan. So hallelujah and have a good time.
Cheers
Mayfly
I've pinched this from another board, but I liked it so much that I thought that I'd share it with you here, so here goes:
A national paper asked various people what they would say to Mr. Bush if they were to meet him during his visit - here's a classic:
: Frederick Forsyth: You will find yourself assailed on every hand by some pretty pretentious characters collectively known as the British left. They traditionally believe they have a monopoly on morality and that your recent actions preclude you from the club. You opposed and destroyed the world's most blood-encrusted dictator. This is quite unforgivable.
I beg you to take no notice. The British left intermittently erupts like a pustule upon the buttock of a rather good country. Seventy years ago it opposed mobilisation against Adolf Hitler and worshipped the other genocide, Josef Stalin.
It has marched for Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Andropov. It has slobbered over Ceausescu and Mugabe. It has demonstrated against everything and everyone American for a century. Broadly speaking, it hates your country first, mine second.
Eleven years ago something dreadful happened. Maggie was ousted, Ronald retired, the Berlin wall fell and Gorby abolished communism. All the left's idols fell and its demons retired. For a decade there was nothing really to hate. But thank the Lord for his limitless mercy. Now they can applaud Saddam, Bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il... and hate a God-fearing Texan. So hallelujah and have a good time.
Cheers
Mayfly
madasafish
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Have to say I agree with F Forsyth..
The same sanctimonious tw#ts who oppose private schooling for anyone but then send THEIR children to private schools (D Abbott), who preach environmentalism and have 7 or more houses (M Meacher), or who go on and on about socialism and the working classes but live in a millionaire's mansion in fashionable London ( T Benn).
Give me an old fashioned socialist any day like the deputy PM who has only 3 houses and 2 Jags and I'll show you a true and honest follower of his creed
The same sanctimonious tw#ts who oppose private schooling for anyone but then send THEIR children to private schools (D Abbott), who preach environmentalism and have 7 or more houses (M Meacher), or who go on and on about socialism and the working classes but live in a millionaire's mansion in fashionable London ( T Benn).
Give me an old fashioned socialist any day like the deputy PM who has only 3 houses and 2 Jags and I'll show you a true and honest follower of his creed
it seemed to me the old labour idea was the same as communism - we are all equal - but us in charge need a few luxuries to put up with our equal peasant brothers and sisters
but perhaps the new idea is - why cant we all be equal and have a porshe and a merc and a country pad and a london penthouse
but perhaps the new idea is - why cant we all be equal and have a porshe and a merc and a country pad and a london penthouse
What went wrong in our policy to let something like Turkey happen again? Less sledgehammer more scalpel required I think. Listening to demonstrators today commenting on events in Turkey and blaming Iraq made me realise that a great deal of them have their heads buried in the sand. They clearly have no understanding of the fundamental distinction between the two, and merely passively sitting back and waiting to see if the nasty terrorists go away is not, and never can be, a valid approach.
madasafish
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I suggest that Mr Blair and Mr Bushlook at the lessons Mr Blair should have learned from N Ireland before talking more about the war on terrorism..
We won that one by military might and no political compromise..not.
We won that one by military might and no political compromise..not.
we have had more acts of terrorism after the war on terrorism was declared than b4, doesn't that simple fact show that the whole approach is wrong...............Most people were not against the war in Afghanistan cos it was a nation that haboured terrorists but attacking Iraq under false pretext has just opened a new front and excuse for would-be terrorists.
Instead of allowing the UN inspectors to finish their work, Bush was intent on going after Sadam (probably to finish off daddy's sloppy work in the first Gulf war). He had the opportunity to use the islamic fundamentalist problems in the middle-east as an excuse to put pressure on the leaders of Israel and d Palestinian Authority to come together and sort their dispute once and for all hence ensuring a better chance of peace reigning in that region but he didn't, he keeps trying quick fix-solutions even tho he knows the percieved bias in the Arab world of the US towards Israel.
He preaches about bringing democracy to Iraq when all of his so-called middle eastern coalition partners don't even have any kind of democracy i.e Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc.
And talking about ruthless leaders, sub sahara Africa, North Korea , Burma and so many other countries are full of them so why are they allowed to get away with treating their population like dirt if we are really sincere about giving freedom to all the people of the world. So hopefully u would c y a lot of people are against George Bush's foreign policy.
Instead of allowing the UN inspectors to finish their work, Bush was intent on going after Sadam (probably to finish off daddy's sloppy work in the first Gulf war). He had the opportunity to use the islamic fundamentalist problems in the middle-east as an excuse to put pressure on the leaders of Israel and d Palestinian Authority to come together and sort their dispute once and for all hence ensuring a better chance of peace reigning in that region but he didn't, he keeps trying quick fix-solutions even tho he knows the percieved bias in the Arab world of the US towards Israel.
He preaches about bringing democracy to Iraq when all of his so-called middle eastern coalition partners don't even have any kind of democracy i.e Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc.
And talking about ruthless leaders, sub sahara Africa, North Korea , Burma and so many other countries are full of them so why are they allowed to get away with treating their population like dirt if we are really sincere about giving freedom to all the people of the world. So hopefully u would c y a lot of people are against George Bush's foreign policy.
"instead of allowing the UN inspectors to finish their work"
it was saddam who spent 10 years not allowing them to finish their work - and turned the UN into a laughing stock of non- decision makers riding the gravy train
he was told the game was up - heres a deadine and he could not **** around anymore - but after 10 years of treating the UN as a joke - he could not quite get into his head that perhaps the game was up and the time to laugh at the UN was over - his decision - a home goal and one in the net for freedom and democracy
one evil dictator down and time for all evil bullies to wake up and smell the coffee, and even for benevelant dictatorships to see that democracy is the only way to go
it was saddam who spent 10 years not allowing them to finish their work - and turned the UN into a laughing stock of non- decision makers riding the gravy train
he was told the game was up - heres a deadine and he could not **** around anymore - but after 10 years of treating the UN as a joke - he could not quite get into his head that perhaps the game was up and the time to laugh at the UN was over - his decision - a home goal and one in the net for freedom and democracy
one evil dictator down and time for all evil bullies to wake up and smell the coffee, and even for benevelant dictatorships to see that democracy is the only way to go
Nice post Stevet.
Probably the best one I've read.
The thing that puzzles me is that after 9/11 and the hunt for ozzie. It all changed to bomb Baghdad to pieces.
I can only think of that as a tactical move on USA/GB part.
With all the spy equipment, SAS etc etc, they know the whereabouts and have the ability to take out anything living on this planet. Or so they would have us believe.
If this is the case, why hasn't it happened. Has a deal been struck. Or as usual are we being fed on a need to know basis.
Probably, it all comes down to a question of economics as usual, and fuck the squadies/soldiers. They are only cannon fodder.
Point to remember is that we could have a peaceful world if we blew up all the evil dictators that didn't agree with us. But in truth everyone needs a scapegoat.
Probably the best one I've read.
The thing that puzzles me is that after 9/11 and the hunt for ozzie. It all changed to bomb Baghdad to pieces.
I can only think of that as a tactical move on USA/GB part.
With all the spy equipment, SAS etc etc, they know the whereabouts and have the ability to take out anything living on this planet. Or so they would have us believe.
If this is the case, why hasn't it happened. Has a deal been struck. Or as usual are we being fed on a need to know basis.
Probably, it all comes down to a question of economics as usual, and fuck the squadies/soldiers. They are only cannon fodder.
Point to remember is that we could have a peaceful world if we blew up all the evil dictators that didn't agree with us. But in truth everyone needs a scapegoat.
