Bush is the democratically elected leader of the most free and successful country of the world - and the one that currently finacially supports the UN and the economies of most other countries
Why wern't there, or are there, any forum protests, or marches by school kids etc againt Saddam Hussein, or that guy Taylor or the guy running North Korea etc etc - these people are not democratically elected and they hold onto power by using fear and terror and deny freedom and they rape their countries of all their wealth to support their own twisted egos - but no one says **** about them
Why wern't there, or are there, any forum protests, or marches by school kids etc againt Saddam Hussein, or that guy Taylor or the guy running North Korea etc etc - these people are not democratically elected and they hold onto power by using fear and terror and deny freedom and they rape their countries of all their wealth to support their own twisted egos - but no one says **** about them
stevet said:
Hmmm yes it does seem that everybody should be aspiring to the american dream. But how are you measuring that success? in terms of the fastest deficit mountain growing or the amount of polutants that they pump into the air, they are very successful at both.
what price do we have to pay just because good old uncle sam says openly, WORLD POLUTION. up yours its not good for our bottom line?
JD
come on now everyone
der der der der der derrrrr, oh bombs bursting in in air etc ..
yep - but runing succesful economies and getting it right aint easy - and most people cant organise their own lives - look how many on this forum are looking for an easy route to trading - imagine what it is like running a country - but the aspiration and goal is the key - and i am not saying the US get it all right - they are screwing up their economy with the huge deficit - but when the US gets it right - they throw off so much cash - that deficits disapear - but i just dont get why do people spout up about democratially elected leaders who just earn a crust for doing their jobs, but dont spout up about the dictators and stuff who dont give a **** about freedom or even pretend they do
the US is not about Bush, 911 was not about Bush, the US is made up of window cleaners, taxi drivers etc etc, and there is a lot more of the ordinary people and they are the US - not a few film stars etc - but everyone enjoys freedom and has the opportunity for success in an aspirational society which historically has supported and not suppressed success, independent thought and freedom
the US is not about Bush, 911 was not about Bush, the US is made up of window cleaners, taxi drivers etc etc, and there is a lot more of the ordinary people and they are the US - not a few film stars etc - but everyone enjoys freedom and has the opportunity for success in an aspirational society which historically has supported and not suppressed success, independent thought and freedom
madasafish
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" that currently finacially supports the UN and the economies of most other countries"
Please: the US is $Billions in arrears.. on their paymenst to the UN..
It also supports in a major way:
China
Russia
those well known bastions of democracy and civil liberty ...
Please get your facts correct...
Please: the US is $Billions in arrears.. on their paymenst to the UN..
It also supports in a major way:
China
Russia
those well known bastions of democracy and civil liberty ...
Please get your facts correct...
I wouln't worry too much about the US ...we're doing a pretty good job of running this country into bankruptcy. Taxes skyrocketing, crime up, education standards down the pan, yob culture, etc.
Having returned to the UK after living abroad, now understand why the Aussies call us whingeing poms.
Having returned to the UK after living abroad, now understand why the Aussies call us whingeing poms.
madasafish
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My only bone of contention is that we went to that war on the basis of Iraq's alleged threat - now we find out that not only were there no WMD, noone making the decisions thought there was either. Leading a nation to war on false pretences is hardly taking the moral high ground.
Also, there are many oppressive regimes throughout the world. Why choose Iraq - I hate to bring up oil again. If the US has decided to become arbiter of foreign regimes, then it must enforce this universally, or it becomes nothing more than a war monger. Zimbabwe for instance - an evil dictator presiding over an oppressive regime. Sound familiar?
Also, there are many oppressive regimes throughout the world. Why choose Iraq - I hate to bring up oil again. If the US has decided to become arbiter of foreign regimes, then it must enforce this universally, or it becomes nothing more than a war monger. Zimbabwe for instance - an evil dictator presiding over an oppressive regime. Sound familiar?
madasafish
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Thanks Grubs
Now I am not on either side of this "debate" - saying "get a life" is hardly likely to persuade me you can indulge in reasoned debate!
Now America is a great country: I worked for many American companies . but if you look at what our beloved leader has achieved with his foreign policy over the past 6 years:
1. it would be ethical.. FACT (I hardly think the conduct of Mr Blair prior to the war was ethcial in terms of speaking the truth)
2. It would be at the centre of Europe.FACT. Really? So why are relations with france and Germany at an all time low - well since WW2 ended anyway?
3. It would be independent: FACT.well I suppose it is: Mr Bush decides what will happen in Iraq and we agree to do it..(FACT.. see the latest timetable for withdrawal.. the UK was NOT consulted in advance)
4. It would support free trade: FACT: Mr Bush supports it but defines free trade as the US selling to others ( see the row about genetically modified food) but not buying from others ( Steel, textiles)
5. We would go to war with Iraq to stop Middle East terrorism and solve the Israel problem. FACT: both are now worse than before...
A catalogue of failure...FACT.
Now I am not on either side of this "debate" - saying "get a life" is hardly likely to persuade me you can indulge in reasoned debate!
Now America is a great country: I worked for many American companies . but if you look at what our beloved leader has achieved with his foreign policy over the past 6 years:
1. it would be ethical.. FACT (I hardly think the conduct of Mr Blair prior to the war was ethcial in terms of speaking the truth)
2. It would be at the centre of Europe.FACT. Really? So why are relations with france and Germany at an all time low - well since WW2 ended anyway?
3. It would be independent: FACT.well I suppose it is: Mr Bush decides what will happen in Iraq and we agree to do it..(FACT.. see the latest timetable for withdrawal.. the UK was NOT consulted in advance)
4. It would support free trade: FACT: Mr Bush supports it but defines free trade as the US selling to others ( see the row about genetically modified food) but not buying from others ( Steel, textiles)
5. We would go to war with Iraq to stop Middle East terrorism and solve the Israel problem. FACT: both are now worse than before...
A catalogue of failure...FACT.
suggy
i agree that all dictators should be taken out, and maybe saddan was just the start
but lets say oil was behind it - do you mean that the US are gonna steal the oil and its value from the Iraqui people ( which would be wrong for sure) or do you mean that oil is real important to the world's economies and having an aggressive dictator sitting in the middle of it might not be the best way for future prosperity
but for sure the reason for going in was about WMD - but how do you tell if someone has them or not - becuause i guess they are real easy to hide - right!
well one way is to say to the guy who might be hiding them - look - you invaded kuwait - and you screwed up - so heres the deal - you stay where you are - but we want to know for sure what weapons you have or else if you blow up some other neighbouring country - we are gonna look stupid for letting you stay and do that
and then later on saddam kicks the inspectors out and says "screw you - what you gonna do about it?"
so nothing gets done
but then he is forced to let the inspectors in as he can sense his number will be up otherwise - but he just makes it hard for them to do their job - so along comes Bush who says -ok - i am gonna line up a whole load of troops and leave them sitting on your door step if you dont throw open the door as South Africa did for us to prove there are no weapons and if you dont do it - you are history
so here you have a guy who has a whole country, all its resources and its people as a plaything - everyone on here understands the concept of risk reward - and whats in the others guy hand - so if i was bush or blair - and the other guy appears to be prepared to give up his country rather than just let me send in a few bureaucrats to check if there are any wearpons for sure -
what turn would you put on that - it was saddam for whatever reason that was saying - i have weapons and thats why i aint letting you in
i dont know about you - but if i had been saddam i would have been laying out the carpet for the whole world to have a look in those last days - right up to the last second - he could have got on tele and said - ok - boys - it was all a joke - please please come in - hey come and stay at the palace - i will even give you a trading course - and he could have carried on living the life of riley or whatever it is in the arab world - go figure!
i agree that all dictators should be taken out, and maybe saddan was just the start
but lets say oil was behind it - do you mean that the US are gonna steal the oil and its value from the Iraqui people ( which would be wrong for sure) or do you mean that oil is real important to the world's economies and having an aggressive dictator sitting in the middle of it might not be the best way for future prosperity
but for sure the reason for going in was about WMD - but how do you tell if someone has them or not - becuause i guess they are real easy to hide - right!
well one way is to say to the guy who might be hiding them - look - you invaded kuwait - and you screwed up - so heres the deal - you stay where you are - but we want to know for sure what weapons you have or else if you blow up some other neighbouring country - we are gonna look stupid for letting you stay and do that
and then later on saddam kicks the inspectors out and says "screw you - what you gonna do about it?"
so nothing gets done
but then he is forced to let the inspectors in as he can sense his number will be up otherwise - but he just makes it hard for them to do their job - so along comes Bush who says -ok - i am gonna line up a whole load of troops and leave them sitting on your door step if you dont throw open the door as South Africa did for us to prove there are no weapons and if you dont do it - you are history
so here you have a guy who has a whole country, all its resources and its people as a plaything - everyone on here understands the concept of risk reward - and whats in the others guy hand - so if i was bush or blair - and the other guy appears to be prepared to give up his country rather than just let me send in a few bureaucrats to check if there are any wearpons for sure -
what turn would you put on that - it was saddam for whatever reason that was saying - i have weapons and thats why i aint letting you in
i dont know about you - but if i had been saddam i would have been laying out the carpet for the whole world to have a look in those last days - right up to the last second - he could have got on tele and said - ok - boys - it was all a joke - please please come in - hey come and stay at the palace - i will even give you a trading course - and he could have carried on living the life of riley or whatever it is in the arab world - go figure!
madasafish
"1. it would be ethical.. FACT (I hardly think the conduct of Mr Blair prior to the war was ethcial in terms of speaking the truth)"
i watched as many broadcasts as i could and i only saw blair being direct and straightforward and incredulous as to why people could not see that if we dont lay down the line with saddam - he is just gonna piss us around for ever - and no one i am sure - including blair - would have belived that saddam would not just thrown in the towel and said - ok - games up - aint got em - just come in and do whatever you want to prove it
i dont know about you - but an army on my doorstep might have woken me up to reality that perhaps if i want to hang onto my cushy life - i better tow the line
"2. It would be at the centre of Europe.FACT. Really? So why are relations with france and Germany at an all time low - well since WW2 ended anyway?"
well we support Europe financially - so i guess we are pretty much at the centre of it - and germany and france have royally screwed up their economies - and for sure one of them will opt out of Europe real soon as they are gonna have to blame someone when the shit really hits the wall for them - and it wont be long now
"3. It would be independent: FACT.well I suppose it is: Mr Bush decides what will happen in Iraq and we agree to do it..(FACT.. see the latest timetable for withdrawal.. the UK was NOT consulted in advance)"
this i dont know about for sure - but my understanding is that orgiionally bush was all for getting out quick as its costing them massive bucks and the longer they are there - the more flak he is gonna take -but no matter how you cut it - theres no point pulling out if that joint aint stable as someone is gonna come in and take over - and never leave
"4. It would support free trade: FACT: Mr Bush supports it but defines free trade as the US selling to others ( see the row about genetically modified food) but not buying from others ( Steel, textiles)"
yep - you are right - not having 100% free trade when you are the bggest and most free capitalistic society is indefensible - but hey - i once farted in public - i guess none of us are perfect!
"5. We would go to war with Iraq to stop Middle East terrorism and solve the Israel problem. FACT: both are now worse than before...!
ok - thats a biggie to solve - but any day now!
i think someone must have lost that road map they are always on about!
"A catalogue of failure...FACT."
yep - a catalogue of trying to do what you feel is right - i guess we have all been there!
but you know what - now or in time there wil be a couple of people like you and me in iraq having this sort of chat without someone knocking on the door and torturuing and killing us and our family - so cant be all bad!!!
"1. it would be ethical.. FACT (I hardly think the conduct of Mr Blair prior to the war was ethcial in terms of speaking the truth)"
i watched as many broadcasts as i could and i only saw blair being direct and straightforward and incredulous as to why people could not see that if we dont lay down the line with saddam - he is just gonna piss us around for ever - and no one i am sure - including blair - would have belived that saddam would not just thrown in the towel and said - ok - games up - aint got em - just come in and do whatever you want to prove it
i dont know about you - but an army on my doorstep might have woken me up to reality that perhaps if i want to hang onto my cushy life - i better tow the line
"2. It would be at the centre of Europe.FACT. Really? So why are relations with france and Germany at an all time low - well since WW2 ended anyway?"
well we support Europe financially - so i guess we are pretty much at the centre of it - and germany and france have royally screwed up their economies - and for sure one of them will opt out of Europe real soon as they are gonna have to blame someone when the shit really hits the wall for them - and it wont be long now
"3. It would be independent: FACT.well I suppose it is: Mr Bush decides what will happen in Iraq and we agree to do it..(FACT.. see the latest timetable for withdrawal.. the UK was NOT consulted in advance)"
this i dont know about for sure - but my understanding is that orgiionally bush was all for getting out quick as its costing them massive bucks and the longer they are there - the more flak he is gonna take -but no matter how you cut it - theres no point pulling out if that joint aint stable as someone is gonna come in and take over - and never leave
"4. It would support free trade: FACT: Mr Bush supports it but defines free trade as the US selling to others ( see the row about genetically modified food) but not buying from others ( Steel, textiles)"
yep - you are right - not having 100% free trade when you are the bggest and most free capitalistic society is indefensible - but hey - i once farted in public - i guess none of us are perfect!
"5. We would go to war with Iraq to stop Middle East terrorism and solve the Israel problem. FACT: both are now worse than before...!
ok - thats a biggie to solve - but any day now!
i think someone must have lost that road map they are always on about!
"A catalogue of failure...FACT."
yep - a catalogue of trying to do what you feel is right - i guess we have all been there!
but you know what - now or in time there wil be a couple of people like you and me in iraq having this sort of chat without someone knocking on the door and torturuing and killing us and our family - so cant be all bad!!!
So far as I'm concerned Mr Bush is welcome here.
But, if you want an insight into the real villian of the "peace", why not try our great chum Jacques Chirac who never ceases to work tireless and selflessly for world peace and enlightenment.
William Shawcross is well known for his pro American views!
Something for the Xmas stocking perhaps?
Cheers
Mayfly
But, if you want an insight into the real villian of the "peace", why not try our great chum Jacques Chirac who never ceases to work tireless and selflessly for world peace and enlightenment.
William Shawcross is well known for his pro American views!
Something for the Xmas stocking perhaps?
Cheers
Mayfly
