Bush's Visit!

[stevet]

qaza

tony is no way a believer of the EU as it currently runs and is consituted - have you noticed we are not full members - and that we still have the pound?

i watched some big debate on TV about the Europe and Eddie Izzard was the one they had brought in to support entry ( no pun intended) - pehaps eddie did not get the irony of bringing in a stand up comedian!!!

where is all the goverment marketing to push us in fully? - no re where! - the goverment havnt done **** to make us full members -if they could get out cleanly they would - but how - without our money the whole EU will collapse and that could have huge implications for the UK

its easy to slip into a nightmare - harder to extricate yourself

re the war - they had to stand firm and tell saddam it was war unless he opened up - who could have foretold how stupid Saddam would be in not just doing that - they chose exactly the right option at the time and had to follow through - and remember - i look at the individual - not the job - both took on heavy enemies by what they did - but responsibilty and morality sometimes push some people to take steps that overide their own personal issues

you can laugh at what bush says - but thats what they did - easy for us to scoff sitting in our armchairs - but no one has ever come knocking on my door and ask me to be a president or priminister - let alone then get voted in - and if you had lived under saddams rule - let alone crossed him - you might have a different view

 

[jsd]

what with the explosions in turkey today i think this maybe the time that people will dump on the stock indexes, i notice the futures u.s. have stopped falling for a bit but its still early hours stateside. should be a nice volatile day.

 

[grubs50]

So who knocked on Bush's door to ask him to run a country? and i would love u to answer this question: Is Iraq not now d new Afghanistan, the breeding ground for terrorists? and if so, how has this improved the risk of terrorists attacks all over the world?............wouldn't it have been easier to sort out the Palestinian prob and isolate the Islamic fundamentalists.

 

[bonsai]

steve

i think we managed to **** each other off in the past - but you made some good and real points here tonight and its good to know some can see the bigger picture

I think it might help matters along if you would try to be a little
less patronising.

 

[madasafish]

Oatman France did indeed sell SH 1 nuclear reactor.. in 1978 and bombed by Israel in 1982 before complete(using French Mystere fighters I think!)

You can argue about the uses - good or evil of nuclear reactors.. personally I think SH would have made a nuclear bomb and used it on Iran if he had.

Howver you can't argue about the uses of long range guns (the UK) and germ warfare agents (the US) or centrifuges (the Germans) . So no-one is clean on Iraq and to single out any one country is invidious.

It is , however factual - that we went to war to destroy WMD (which we and the US supplied) and none have been found. Experience of Gremany after WW2 says if it has not been discovered within 6 months of the end of the war it does not exist.. so no WMD and no "hidden " French involvement.. which the US hints at darkly but cannot find..

Remember the old political adage: "if you are in a hole of your own making, blame someone else.."

I cannot recall the French Vice President selling chemical warfare agents to Iraq.. but the US one?

 

[jsd]

which raises a question , how do people sit with making money off of events like 9-11 etc. I must admit i was at home watching with 9-11 a had a long position on the dow that day pre market futures were up about 45 ish before the planes hit. I knew my stop was blown out but i was glued to the news like most who could see it... its discusting what happens, but the following day i did short the ftse, through Cantor Index, and they lost a lot of staff with 9-11 I must admit I felt pretty low for placing the trade.

 

[stevet]

bonsai

ok, you lost me a bit there - i never really got my head round what patronising means - so maybe thats a sign of how i am

 

[qaza]

Stevet

Tony has made his enthusiasm for the euro pretty obvious to everyone and would replace the pound if he could

He frequently says that Britains place is at the heart of Europe. hardly makes sense of your comment that they would get us out if they could.

We agree that saddam was stupid but I'm afraid that I dont share your admiration of bush and blair or what they have done.

 

[stevet]

jsd

s&p dropped about 10pts in the pre as news filtered through - went to go long for a quick rebound

thought - what the fuck am i doing - bad trading move and bad morality

and jumped a plane to madrid for a week

 

[grubs50]

Jsd , unfortunately whatever happens in life, including personal tragedy, life continues. Life is basically about survival.

 

[stevet]

qaza

the theory is that blair took us to war without the countries agrement - right! - how hard woudl it be to force us into europe?

i went to a private talk by gordon brown who is actauly very open and honest and its pretty clear they have no interest in fulll membership - they always say - yes -but on our terms - which means no - exactly what politicians should do

 

[oatman]

jsd, is anybody going to ask you if you lost money that day?
It's just your job.

 

[qaza]

stevet

I thought it was approved by parliament ?

And another point................we are already very much in Europe

 

[stevet]

qaza

sorry -u mean the war?

and control of you own currency and interest rates is key to any countries economic prosperity - now what part do we still control!

they have to let this country do well and not get screwed up with their economies since we are the ones supporting the whole mess - someones got to be making the bucks!

 

[qaza]

stevet

yes, thought the war was approved by parliament

we control our currency and interest rates but blair wants us to join the euro which means we hand control to the ECB if that happens

 

[jsd]

I must admit I did see JACK Straw giving Dominique the french un bod that amazing speach,(pre war) that was excellent of Jack, , and the bloody nerve of the French Thanking britain and the usa for their support, The Bloody french hadnt even sent any troops there, But i think the powers that be do a lot of role play regarding the middle east and the vast amounts of Oil. I really think that if left unchecked Saddam would of been to big a worry for the Saudi's.

 

[jsd]

I really cannot believe Britain as a nation will vote to join Europe currency etc, I know to a certain extent Euro law is above our own, and in the history of man, there has never been a country with a common currency that hasn't gone on to a Central parliament controlling all.

but i cant see britain voting for it, we are british, ok well European, gulp! all the tories have to do is say. we are not going for the single currency and they are in... whats blair waiting for the best time to hoodwink people to even consider it.... when his advisors say now tony referendum, just tag on these sweeteners and lose any tricky bits in the small print.

and another thing, can anyone see us embracing the french, germans, italians, i just cant see it....

 

[stevet]

qaza

yes, but my point was that according to what i keep hearing on TV - the people of the country did not want to go to war

so if blair wanted us in - we would be in

just look at any speech made about us entering

" do you support full entry"

" yes, but when the terms are right" - that is a great big fat NO - but leaves the door open nicely

 

[grubs50]

I think he wants to join but he knows he can't win a refrendum supporting it esp with so much disinformation being spread by the tabloids notably the SUN

 

[Kilnside]

Thankfully declaring War is not decided by Parliament - WWII wasn't (otherwise we might have a very different Europe today) and neither was Iraq. The confidence vote (and thus the ill-advised and unnecessary dossier which came back to haunt him) was largely for internal Party reasons. Even so to his credit and for once Blair showed national leadership, conviction and courage at the wire.

To paraphrase Reagan the Silent Majority rules OK. Astute politicians try to find out what it's thinking. That is why no narrow based protests have forced any change in the last 50 years. Protests over road fuel duty and the Poll tax (eventually) worked because they were perceived to be widespread.

So if most people had really been implacably "against the war" ( as opposed to "not wanting to go to war" which is probably true but facile) the Government's tactics would have been quite different.

The Euro debate is dead in the water pro tem - but then the real prize is the Draft Convention. Deafening silence.