And Stevet, i think u need to go and live in a third world country for awhile so that u will realise that what was happening in Iraq is not unique in anyway.............If Sadam hadn't attacked Kuwait, i doubt if we would even be having this discussion at all cos Sadam would have been just another corrupt dictator who happens not to be a threat to the west.
I get the feeling that u have been cushioned from the reality of life in so many countries cos u have only been exposed to the civilised set-up in our country and other western allies and all your judgements r based on media reports and nothing else.
I get the feeling that u have been cushioned from the reality of life in so many countries cos u have only been exposed to the civilised set-up in our country and other western allies and all your judgements r based on media reports and nothing else.
Grubs,
I think you’ll find that living in the Third World (or elsewhere for that matter) will fail to protect anyone from the risks of living within reach of “Islam’s bloody borders”.
Speaking personally, I think that Huntington (“Clash of Civilizations” and written in circa 1993”) is too pessimistic about these matters, but even so I think you’ll find that a search of Google (“Islam’s bloody borders”), will reveal about 1280 results and I also think that you’ll find that these make instructive and salutary reading.
The nub of the matter, as Salman Rushdie puts it, is that "The Islamic world today is being held prisoner, not by Western, but by Islamic captors who are fighting to keep closed a world that a badly outnumbered few are trying to open."
HTH
Cheers
Mayfly
I think you’ll find that living in the Third World (or elsewhere for that matter) will fail to protect anyone from the risks of living within reach of “Islam’s bloody borders”.
Speaking personally, I think that Huntington (“Clash of Civilizations” and written in circa 1993”) is too pessimistic about these matters, but even so I think you’ll find that a search of Google (“Islam’s bloody borders”), will reveal about 1280 results and I also think that you’ll find that these make instructive and salutary reading.
The nub of the matter, as Salman Rushdie puts it, is that "The Islamic world today is being held prisoner, not by Western, but by Islamic captors who are fighting to keep closed a world that a badly outnumbered few are trying to open."
HTH
Cheers
Mayfly
ah ! the penny has dropped
yesterday's men arealways hard to remember
but it was Bryan Gould , I was trying to recall.
Stood against John Smith and when he lost, took umbrage and went back to New Zealand.
became vice chancellor of local university and stayed in his ivory
tower ever since. retires next year.
The man who thought currency markets would do as they were told !
lol
yesterday's men arealways hard to remember
but it was Bryan Gould , I was trying to recall.
Stood against John Smith and when he lost, took umbrage and went back to New Zealand.
became vice chancellor of local university and stayed in his ivory
tower ever since. retires next year.
The man who thought currency markets would do as they were told !
lol
madasafish
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The trouble with this whole debate is:
1. You cannot IMPOSE democarcy: it must be wanted.
2. If it is wanted, the people inside or outside the country will have some kind of figurehead to lead them.
3. If they have no figurehead but lots of warring factions: they don't want freedom really: just their own fiefdoms.
Look at Burma.. a classic case with a classic Opposition leader (whose name I can't spell ( clearly a figurehead)
Contrast with Iraq or Afghanisatn: lots of exiles none of whom could agree on a leader becuase they all had/have their own separate agenda.
Or France in WW2 with Msr Le General
Or Iran with the Ayatollah in exile during the Shah's years. (no I'm not saying he wanted democracy)
Or S Africa with Nelson Mandela.
If a country is oppressed and has no natural leader in exile or imprisoned at home then invading it/fighting wars rthere is going to cause lots of grief..
For example Zimbabwe: topple Mugabe and replace him with .. what or whom? Another dictator?
Now the US has been involved in 3 major wars since WW2:
Korea: won and supported a brutal military dictatorship which has transferred to a democracy.
Vietnam: lost. Transferred to a Communist state.. the domino theory was wrong..
Iraq: the jury is out.
For SteveT: if overcoming dictatorships is US foreign policy, why not start a little nearer home? In fact on the US doorstep. I refer to thet "evil dictator Castro".
Oh surprise: the US is doing nothing but sanctions: which are not working.. Now Iraq had sanctions as well..they worked on WMD.
Lets stop being starry eyed about motives: this democarcy carp is just an excuse for land and oil politics...
1. You cannot IMPOSE democarcy: it must be wanted.
2. If it is wanted, the people inside or outside the country will have some kind of figurehead to lead them.
3. If they have no figurehead but lots of warring factions: they don't want freedom really: just their own fiefdoms.
Look at Burma.. a classic case with a classic Opposition leader (whose name I can't spell ( clearly a figurehead)
Contrast with Iraq or Afghanisatn: lots of exiles none of whom could agree on a leader becuase they all had/have their own separate agenda.
Or France in WW2 with Msr Le General
Or Iran with the Ayatollah in exile during the Shah's years. (no I'm not saying he wanted democracy)
Or S Africa with Nelson Mandela.
If a country is oppressed and has no natural leader in exile or imprisoned at home then invading it/fighting wars rthere is going to cause lots of grief..
For example Zimbabwe: topple Mugabe and replace him with .. what or whom? Another dictator?
Now the US has been involved in 3 major wars since WW2:
Korea: won and supported a brutal military dictatorship which has transferred to a democracy.
Vietnam: lost. Transferred to a Communist state.. the domino theory was wrong..
Iraq: the jury is out.
For SteveT: if overcoming dictatorships is US foreign policy, why not start a little nearer home? In fact on the US doorstep. I refer to thet "evil dictator Castro".
Oh surprise: the US is doing nothing but sanctions: which are not working.. Now Iraq had sanctions as well..they worked on WMD.
Lets stop being starry eyed about motives: this democarcy carp is just an excuse for land and oil politics...
madasafish
iraq was invaded since saddam hussein had ignored and stuck his finger up to the UN for 10 years - which left open the possiblity that he had or would create, a new program at any time, to attack his neighbours again
he was also firing on the UN planes every single day for the latter part of that 10 years that did their the policing flyovers for the agreed zones over iraq
10 years is enough time for anyone to show their true aspirations and if they had changed
and it also meant that any other nut out there would figure - screw the UN - they let saddam ignore them for 10 years and he invaded kuwait - why should i care what the UN says
and democracy will end up as a by product of ending saddams finger up to the UN and also perhaps a wake up call that democracy is needed right throughout the middle east and yes - cuba as well - castro destroyed the wealth of a country and its people - time the people got back whats left and try to build it again at least for their children to enjoy
iraq was invaded since saddam hussein had ignored and stuck his finger up to the UN for 10 years - which left open the possiblity that he had or would create, a new program at any time, to attack his neighbours again
he was also firing on the UN planes every single day for the latter part of that 10 years that did their the policing flyovers for the agreed zones over iraq
10 years is enough time for anyone to show their true aspirations and if they had changed
and it also meant that any other nut out there would figure - screw the UN - they let saddam ignore them for 10 years and he invaded kuwait - why should i care what the UN says
and democracy will end up as a by product of ending saddams finger up to the UN and also perhaps a wake up call that democracy is needed right throughout the middle east and yes - cuba as well - castro destroyed the wealth of a country and its people - time the people got back whats left and try to build it again at least for their children to enjoy
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mad
I think you should also remember thata lot of these 'problem' countries do not contain an homogenous mass.
they are borders created for political reasons after either
the first or second world wars.
so it is unlikely there will be common cause .
the concept of nationality is a western notion.
"Your Country needs YOU" -Kitchener
"Ask not what your country can do for you but ........" -Kennedy
Warring clans or tribes, yes.
I think you should also remember thata lot of these 'problem' countries do not contain an homogenous mass.
they are borders created for political reasons after either
the first or second world wars.
so it is unlikely there will be common cause .
the concept of nationality is a western notion.
"Your Country needs YOU" -Kitchener
"Ask not what your country can do for you but ........" -Kennedy
Warring clans or tribes, yes.
madasafish
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Is Stevet seriously suggesting that we invade every country that ignores US resolutions..?
Roll on the invaisions of the US, Israel etc..
Please answer me why the US did not invade Cuba first if the doctrine is to bring down all tyrants. It's smaller and nearer...
Roll on the invaisions of the US, Israel etc..
Please answer me why the US did not invade Cuba first if the doctrine is to bring down all tyrants. It's smaller and nearer...
madasafish
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Well your logic is: invade and destroy despotic regimes and insert democracy.. well at least I read you as saying that is US policy..
My question is : iif so why did the US not invade Cuba first?
It meets all the chosen criteria and is much closer and smaller so could be done in an afternoon.. Try on a small country and then move to Iraq having learned the lessons of the first one..
Or is it because policy is being made after the event to justify what is happening?
My question is : iif so why did the US not invade Cuba first?
It meets all the chosen criteria and is much closer and smaller so could be done in an afternoon.. Try on a small country and then move to Iraq having learned the lessons of the first one..
Or is it because policy is being made after the event to justify what is happening?
madasafish
nope - saddam removal was a policing issue - he was a baddie and he wanted to continue being a baddie despite the get out of jail free card he had been given - he chose his own dowmfall by his actions
a follow on from that is the responsibilty to try to create the possibility for the country to develp a strong democratic basis so another bully boy does not walk in and start the whole game over again
democracy for the iraqi people is a lucky conscequence of getting rid of a tyrant who ignored the UN for 10 years - and for the west the chance to introduce the concept of democracy and have a go at stabilising a real instable part of the world which due to the oil interests - any problems there could destroy yours, mine, your kids, and the rest of the worlds current economics which in ultimatly means no food to eat
and if you think thats a bit far fetched - watch what happens when we lose power for a day or there is only one loaf of bread in the shop - people soon forget what civilised behavior is
nope - saddam removal was a policing issue - he was a baddie and he wanted to continue being a baddie despite the get out of jail free card he had been given - he chose his own dowmfall by his actions
a follow on from that is the responsibilty to try to create the possibility for the country to develp a strong democratic basis so another bully boy does not walk in and start the whole game over again
democracy for the iraqi people is a lucky conscequence of getting rid of a tyrant who ignored the UN for 10 years - and for the west the chance to introduce the concept of democracy and have a go at stabilising a real instable part of the world which due to the oil interests - any problems there could destroy yours, mine, your kids, and the rest of the worlds current economics which in ultimatly means no food to eat
and if you think thats a bit far fetched - watch what happens when we lose power for a day or there is only one loaf of bread in the shop - people soon forget what civilised behavior is
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I think you missed my point
there is no such thing as 'Iraqi' people.
its another illusion like 'afghani' people.
there is no real common cause amongst the tribes.
they need/want very strong leaders .
they dont really understand democracy.
its something of the 'godfather' syndrome that works best.
there is no such thing as 'Iraqi' people.
its another illusion like 'afghani' people.
there is no real common cause amongst the tribes.
they need/want very strong leaders .
they dont really understand democracy.
its something of the 'godfather' syndrome that works best.
what you havn't had - you cant really want for sure - what you have had - that tastes good - you then can't get enough of
bit like stella or a great chilean merlot
although angelina jolie kinda breaks that rule for me for sure! never had her but ...............
bit like stella or a great chilean merlot
although angelina jolie kinda breaks that rule for me for sure! never had her but ...............
Car Key Boi
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grubs50 said:
if yuor argument against the war is along the lines of "Saddam was only murdering 100's of 1,000's of his own people, it's NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!" and "a thousand towelhead lives are not worth ONE coalition life" then i can understand where yuo're coming from
but that's not the case....
from the get go yuo peacetards were moaning about the poor Iraqis being murdered by the imperialistic Americans raining bombs on Iraq blah blah blah
here's a heads up for yuo
the amount Iraqis dying NOW is insignificant to how it was when Saddam was in power.. That is FACT
the only group of people who are dying in greater numbers since Saddam was toppled, are our troops.... but like i said, the peacetards don't give two hoots about that. Proof of that FTS (Fact That Sux) is the appearance of the Right Dishonorable Saddam Lovin George Galloway at yuor peacetard demo. This is the guy who was calling on the Arab world to rise up against the coalition troops....
here's some more FTS for YUO!
electricity output in Iraq now exceeds pre-war output: 4400 megawatts a day versus 3300 megawatts in January
oil production is nearly back to pre-war levels: 2,200 million barrels a day, as against 2,500 million barrels a day
3.6 million school children are back at primary school & 1.5 million in secondary school
university registrations have increased from 63,000 pre-war to 97,000 today
healthcare is back to pre-war levels & improving rapidly because spending is estimated to be 26 times pre-war levels
doctors salaries are 8 times higher
of course, the above FTS's ain't gonna stop the Iraqi people p!ssing & moaning at Bush/America/blah. It's human nature to p!ss & moan at whoever is in charge. Yuo Brits moan at yuor govt. regardless of who is in power and what their policies are, we AmericanTards do the same with ours, and so does every other free country, so of course the Iraqis are now gonna do likewise. It's called Freedom
yuo say yuo support the right of people to protest. So do i. And now the Iraqi people have that right, and it's courtesy of G W Bush and everyone who supported him, and not courtesy of all those rabid peacetard assholes that gathered in London
Car Key Boi
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incidenty, when i was in the UK (not my last stay, the one before that) i remember there was some sort of Guntard march in London. They were protesting against the banning of hunting blah
something like 400,000 Guntards took to yuor streets if i remember correctly, 4 times the amount of peacetards protesting against Bush/Blair/Iraq/blah, so go figure...
i would love to see some pics of the London protestors. I bet they look no different to the assholes that were protesting in San Fran
and for yuor information, those assholes were not representative of yuor average American Tard. Most of those protestors were either: Communists, anti-Israel tards, gay rights activists, wackos, loons, out-of-state veiny drifter cock
when i get some time, i'll post some pics. Yuo guys work so hard and deserve a good laugh
something like 400,000 Guntards took to yuor streets if i remember correctly, 4 times the amount of peacetards protesting against Bush/Blair/Iraq/blah, so go figure...
i would love to see some pics of the London protestors. I bet they look no different to the assholes that were protesting in San Fran
and for yuor information, those assholes were not representative of yuor average American Tard. Most of those protestors were either: Communists, anti-Israel tards, gay rights activists, wackos, loons, out-of-state veiny drifter cock
when i get some time, i'll post some pics. Yuo guys work so hard and deserve a good laugh
Rognvald
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From Timesonline
"We fly to northeast England so Bush can visit Blair’s provincial home in Trimdon. The press insists on comparing Blair’s postage stamp-sized property with Bush’s 1,600-acre spread in Crawford
White House reporters howl at the local television station’s blow-by-blow coverage of Bush’s every move, right down to his lunch of mushy peas, whatever those are.
Americans are still vaguely intimidated by British intellectualism, so it is nice to be able to goof on the English for their endearing eccentricities. But while we delight in disparaging mushy peas today, we will next week be eating our umpteenth helping of Texas barbecue and chicken-fried steak, which is a piece of beef fried in batter normally reserved for chicken. It has so much cholesterol it ought to be served with a rib-spreader for open-heart surgery! Ugh!"
‘I think that George Bush is the greatest threat to life on this planet that we've probably ever seen’
Ken Livingstone, the Mayor of London
and from chortler.com
""sure we treat them like a puppy dog, ignore anything they have to say and still expect them to follow our every whim, but do we really deserve having to eat English food," said Condoleezza Rice, president Bush's national security advisor."
And on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on!
"We fly to northeast England so Bush can visit Blair’s provincial home in Trimdon. The press insists on comparing Blair’s postage stamp-sized property with Bush’s 1,600-acre spread in Crawford
White House reporters howl at the local television station’s blow-by-blow coverage of Bush’s every move, right down to his lunch of mushy peas, whatever those are.
Americans are still vaguely intimidated by British intellectualism, so it is nice to be able to goof on the English for their endearing eccentricities. But while we delight in disparaging mushy peas today, we will next week be eating our umpteenth helping of Texas barbecue and chicken-fried steak, which is a piece of beef fried in batter normally reserved for chicken. It has so much cholesterol it ought to be served with a rib-spreader for open-heart surgery! Ugh!"
‘I think that George Bush is the greatest threat to life on this planet that we've probably ever seen’
Ken Livingstone, the Mayor of London
and from chortler.com
""sure we treat them like a puppy dog, ignore anything they have to say and still expect them to follow our every whim, but do we really deserve having to eat English food," said Condoleezza Rice, president Bush's national security advisor."
And on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on!
Car Key Boi
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some pics of those San Fran peacetards
Communist/Student/Loozer Tards
it's amazing what liberaltards get away with....
i never understood this irrational obsession that peacetards have comparing Bush to one of the most evil men in history....
erm, if yuo say so pal
wacko/loon
Out-Of-State veiny drifter cock
"mommy? about these Islamic Fundamentalist Tards that we support? is it true that they want to keep wimmin at home? they want to keep us out of the workplace? and by their Islamic law, they allow the rape of wimmin and children? and they chop off hands and feet, publicly? and they don't like gays and lesbos? that's according to Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the ISNA who said: Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education. There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life.
"so mommy? by our actions, we support this type of behavior.....to the point where we dress up like their wimmin and burn American flags with our Palestinian buddies, and then play chicken with an Israeli bulldozer (Rachel Corrie lost in her game, too bad for her) and yet, we show such hatred for mildly conservative views..."
"mommy? as a liberaltard, can yuo explain this contradiction?"
- Car Key Boi
Communist/Student/Loozer Tards
it's amazing what liberaltards get away with....
i never understood this irrational obsession that peacetards have comparing Bush to one of the most evil men in history....
erm, if yuo say so pal
wacko/loon
Out-Of-State veiny drifter cock
"mommy? about these Islamic Fundamentalist Tards that we support? is it true that they want to keep wimmin at home? they want to keep us out of the workplace? and by their Islamic law, they allow the rape of wimmin and children? and they chop off hands and feet, publicly? and they don't like gays and lesbos? that's according to Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the ISNA who said: Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education. There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life.
"so mommy? by our actions, we support this type of behavior.....to the point where we dress up like their wimmin and burn American flags with our Palestinian buddies, and then play chicken with an Israeli bulldozer (Rachel Corrie lost in her game, too bad for her) and yet, we show such hatred for mildly conservative views..."
"mommy? as a liberaltard, can yuo explain this contradiction?"
- Car Key Boi
