Brexit and the Consequences

[NVP]

To vote remain based on the belief that your government is incompetent and will make a hash of things if the decision went otherwise (which it has anyweay), seems to be an incompetent reason itself to base a vote on!

That's a blackmail vote, where the government has made you believe that they are so incompetent that if you vote them to do the thing that you know they are crap at doing (and they would admit to themselves also) it will be worse than voting for them not to change, that was called Project Fear.

"Vote for us and we'll continue to feed you the same crap, vote against us and we'll make it worse for you" ???

Beggars belief if lots of other remainers voted for that reason, maybe it explains why they are so angry, ultimately voting this way ensures that you end up with continued crap government and no change for the better.

Voting is the only opportunity you have to change things for the better, if you are not happy with the status quo, why would you vote to remain with the status quo, when ultimately, no-one know what the end result might be and there is a probability of it being better (if the present government wasn't so incompetent at enacting a better future for us)?

governments and politicians will never improve their bureaucracy, wastage or poor decision making - regardless of the party or leadership ....its only capitalism that cleanses.....we have to accept that public services will always carry such issues in everyday life.....in even civilised countries......

I would prefer to seperate my vote or opinion regarding Party selection (and relative levels of poor decisions / inefficiencies etc) from the Brexit decision ......but this will prove inevitable next year based on how things are going ..........all being lumped together to confuse things further

personally I applaude Mays political play now ........a second referendum has never been closer despite her intentions........

N

 

[NVP]

And they say that assumption is the mother of all f@@ck-ups! To assume that lying politicians would extricate us from an economically failing union, when they have lied and deceived us on just about every point of foreign policy over the years is naive. And the Brexit process proves the point, UKGov and the EU have tried to play us with their faux negotiations, thinking that the British public believe the charade.

We would become debt slaves to the EU, just as Greece and Italy have become and soon-to-be Spain will.

Well they might be 48% correct I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 48% now.

How can we believe our government to be acting in our best interests, when they are withholding information from parliament regarding all sorts of issues, including foreign wars, EU military integration, immigration and foreign aid to name but a few. How can we believe our government when they buy and sell our personal data, to use in influencing our own, as well as foreign elections.

Look at what is happening to the EU across Europe, sovereign governments in disarray, pro-EU governments being voted out of office, why? Because they have been lying to their citizens for a long time, just as in the UK.

People are not happy with the Status Quo, the UK is either slow to wake-up, full of disbelief, or UKGov has done a really good job at maintaining the deception, I think it is a combination of all 3. On the other hand 52% have woken up and voted accordingly, voting in record numbers, it really matters to people that we leave the EU !

Why we are slower to wake up than our UK cousins is probably down to the conditioning we've had from birth that the UK are the most upstanding bastion of democracy and free speech in the world, unfortunately that has all been turned on its head and we are now the leader in anti-democracy, setting a bad example for the rest of the world.

they are all as bad as each other

my vote to remain in Europe was simply looking at the lesser of two evils......as stay or go still leave masses of ongoing issues for each EU country and us to handle

my other concern was voting to try to keep Europe together as a trading and political family .....as further devided we will be conquered by the likes of the big boys......Trump , Putin and the Chinese cannot believe their luck !

 

[counter_violent]

SJW central

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018...derships-dismayed-reaction-to-trump-election/

The term "Low information voters" seems to dominate the presentation.

 

[Signalcalc]

governments and politicians will never improve their bureaucracy, wastage or poor decision making - regardless of the party or leadership ....its only capitalism that cleanses.....we have to accept that public services will always carry such issues in everyday life.....in even civilised countries......

So you said "the main reason i also voted for remain was the anticipated train wreck that our government and bureaucrats would make of the exit and divorce process" and now you are saying that it wouldn't matter who was in power? It would still be a train wreck, that kinda makes the vote to remain based on a train wreck academic does it not? You would have voted to remain regardless of who was in power because anyone would make a train wreck of the process?

So why did you vote to remain?

 

[Signalcalc]

they are all as bad as each other

my vote to remain in Europe was simply looking at the lesser of two evils......as stay or go still leave masses of ongoing issues for each EU country and us to handle

my other concern was voting to try to keep Europe together as a trading and political family .....as further devided we will be conquered by the likes of the big boys......Trump , Putin and the Chinese cannot believe their luck !

OK, so that is a different reason from the 'every government will make a train wreck of it' reason.

Do you mean that Trump, Putin and the Chinese can't believe their luck that the EU is creaking because of ideological or economic reasons? The argument here is that the EU is stronger as a unit, together?

Then why didn't Cameron obtain a few concessions from the EU to keep us in? We were willing to deal.

P.S. I think you already know the answer!

 

[Signalcalc]

The term "Low information voters" seems to dominate the presentation.

Do you watch any Netflix? There is a series entitled 'American Horror Story', like a black humour take on 'Tales of the Unexpected' but amped-up US style, wow it is sick and scary, barely watchable at times, great if you are a very dark, psychological, comedy horror fan, highly recommended. In Series 7, just released, they have managed to weave in Trump, Brexit and SJWs, absolutely hilarious and yet strangely scary.

:clap::clap:

 

[Signalcalc]

Notice how the media have been reporting that the Govt are preparing for civil unrest in the event of a no-deal Brexit, but they haven't actually defined where or who the civil unrest will come from?

Watch for this as we approach end of March 19, with no second referendum, no deal, govt in disarray. Labour and the Unions have already called for civil disobedience in the public workspace and on the streets. It's already been happening where momentum thugs have been disrupting hustings. There is official govt documentation that provides guidance to councils to no-platform 'extremist' events, but who decides who the 'extremists' are (you guessed it, anyone with an opposing view, or is exposing the truth about govt).

There is so much opposition in the public sector that my guess is that May will step down almost immediately that article 50 is invoked (April 1st ), triggering a general election. I agree with NVP that 2019 will be annus horribilus, possibly for more reasons than for just economical.

 

[tomorton]

governments and politicians will never improve their bureaucracy, wastage or poor decision making - regardless of the party or leadership ....its only capitalism that cleanses.....we have to accept that public services will always carry such issues in everyday life.....in even civilised countries......

I would prefer to seperate my vote or opinion regarding Party selection (and relative levels of poor decisions / inefficiencies etc) from the Brexit decision ......but this will prove inevitable next year based on how things are going ..........all being lumped together to confuse things further

personally I applaude Mays political play now ........a second referendum has never been closer despite her intentions........

N

No more referendums please.

 

[barjon]

And they say that assumption is the mother of all f@@ck-ups! To assume that lying politicians would extricate us from an economically failing union, when they have lied and deceived us on just about every point of foreign policy over the years is naive. And the Brexit process proves the point, UKGov and the EU have tried to play us with their faux negotiations, thinking that the British public believe the charade.

We would become debt slaves to the EU, just as Greece and Italy have become and soon-to-be Spain will.

Well they might be 48% correct I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 48% now.

How can we believe our government to be acting in our best interests, when they are withholding information from parliament regarding all sorts of issues, including foreign wars, EU military integration, immigration and foreign aid to name but a few. How can we believe our government when they buy and sell our personal data, to use in influencing our own, as well as foreign elections.

Look at what is happening to the EU across Europe, sovereign governments in disarray, pro-EU governments being voted out of office, why? Because they have been lying to their citizens for a long time, just as in the UK.

People are not happy with the Status Quo, the UK is either slow to wake-up, full of disbelief, or UKGov has done a really good job at maintaining the deception, I think it is a combination of all 3. On the other hand 52% have woken up and voted accordingly, voting in record numbers, it really matters to people that we leave the EU !

Why we are slower to wake up than our UK cousins is probably down to the conditioning we've had from birth that the UK are the most upstanding bastion of democracy and free speech in the world, unfortunately that has all been turned on its head and we are now the leader in anti-democracy, setting a bad example for the rest of the world.

Just because the vast majority of politicians have a view about what is in the best interest for our country that is different to yours doesn’t make them liars and charlatans. How you can say we are anti-democracy is totally beyond me given that we are embarked on this suicide course (my opinion) precisely because of the democratic outcome of the referendum.

The fact that it is so hard to strike a deal is because the fanciful “cake and eat it” position of the brexiteers was never going to run so it’s bound to be compromise or nothing. Neither is attractive so you finish up taking the least bad.

 

[Signalcalc]

No more referendums please.

Alea iacta est

 

[Signalcalc]

Just because the vast majority of politicians have a view about what is in the best interest for our country that is different to yours doesn’t make them liars and charlatans. How you can say we are anti-democracy is totally beyond me given that we are embarked on this suicide course (my opinion) precisely because of the democratic outcome of the referendum.

I was making a wider point about democracy, not just Brexit.

For Brexit, time will tell, I just like to be ahead of the curve, that's all, if we get a no-deal, then we could say that democracy has been fulfilled, if we get a BRINO or a second referendum, then our elected representatives have failed at democracy.

But given the wider point about the lack of democracy, and the shenanigans that have gone on since the vote, I have no faith that we will get a Brexit other than BRINO (which is what Chequers is).

The fact that it is so hard to strike a deal is because the fanciful “cake and eat it” position of the brexiteers was never going to run so it’s bound to be compromise or nothing. Neither is attractive so you finish up taking the least bad.

Incorrect, it's because the EU won't negotiate.

 

[barjon]

.....Incorrect, it's because the EU won't negotiate.

No, they won’t negotiate their red line principles and no more would you if the boot was on the other foot. That was always one of the fanciful dreams of the leavers. Unless we head for the rocky shores of no deal then the best we can hope for is that they will let them fray round the edges a bit - hence the Chequers compromise position.

 

[tomorton]

And they say that assumption is the mother of all f@@ck-ups! To assume that lying politicians would extricate us from an economically failing union, when they have lied and deceived us on just about every point of foreign policy over the years is naive. And the Brexit process proves the point, UKGov and the EU have tried to play us with their faux negotiations, thinking that the British public believe the charade.

We would become debt slaves to the EU, just as Greece and Italy have become and soon-to-be Spain will.

Well they might be 48% correct I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 48% now.

How can we believe our government to be acting in our best interests, when they are withholding information from parliament regarding all sorts of issues, including foreign wars, EU military integration, immigration and foreign aid to name but a few. How can we believe our government when they buy and sell our personal data, to use in influencing our own, as well as foreign elections.

Look at what is happening to the EU across Europe, sovereign governments in disarray, pro-EU governments being voted out of office, why? Because they have been lying to their citizens for a long time, just as in the UK.

People are not happy with the Status Quo, the UK is either slow to wake-up, full of disbelief, or UKGov has done a really good job at maintaining the deception, I think it is a combination of all 3. On the other hand 52% have woken up and voted accordingly, voting in record numbers, it really matters to people that we leave the EU !

Why we are slower to wake up than our UK cousins is probably down to the conditioning we've had from birth that the UK are the most upstanding bastion of democracy and free speech in the world, unfortunately that has all been turned on its head and we are now the leader in anti-democracy, setting a bad example for the rest of the world.

The main UK parties were committed to EU membership for decades. Neither thought membership would be an economic disaster. Both promised to respect the Brexit referendum result and extricate us from the EU. Neither think Brexit will be an economic disaster. Sounds pretty consistent.

If you don't trust any politicians on any matter, discussion of political matters is just a waste of time.

 

[Signalcalc]

No, they won’t negotiate their red line principles and no more would you if the boot was on the other foot. That was always one of the fanciful dreams of the leavers. Unless we head for the rocky shores of no deal then the best we can hope for is that they will let them fray round the edges a bit - hence the Chequers compromise position.

Only one of those options is palatable to a Brexiteer

 

[barjon]

Only one of those options is palatable to a Brexiteer

To a hard one - yes. There are plenty with a softer centre, though

 

[Signalcalc]

The main UK parties were committed to EU membership for decades. Neither thought membership would be an economic disaster. Both promised to respect the Brexit referendum result and extricate us from the EU. Neither think Brexit will be an economic disaster. Sounds pretty consistent.

What?? Who instigated and has continued with Project Fear 1,2 & now 3 ??

We have Tories attempting BRINO, we have labour attempting BRINO and a second referendum, neither party is respecting the referendum result.

If you don't trust any politicians on any matter, discussion of political matters is just a waste of time.

Agreed, they should all leave hanging their heads in shame and we can start again with fresh people, introduce some transparency, lose the points scoring and lining one's pockets and get on with running a civilisation that befits the sacrifice of those that have gone before us to make it happen. Not arbritarily erode our Western freedoms through the back door and claim it is in our interests to do so.

 

[tomorton]

All the focus of this type of deal or that type of deal isn't important. Of course, if your name's May or Rees-Mogg or Corbyn or Khan, its vital, your own job's at stake.

 

[tomorton]

What?? Who instigated and has continued with Project Fear 1,2 & now 3 ??

We have Tories attempting BRINO, we have labour attempting BRINO and a second referendum, neither party is respecting the referendum result.



Agreed, they should all leave hanging their heads in shame and we can start again with fresh people, introduce some transparency, lose the points scoring and lining one's pockets and get on with running a civilisation that befits the sacrifice of those that have gone before us to make it happen. Not arbritarily erode our Western freedoms through the back door and claim it is in our interests to do so.

Fear 1, 2 and 3? I guess you put more stock in these things than I do, I didn't take much notice. As you know, I made my own mind up on the referendum on economic grounds.

Maybe you were shocked that politicians said one thing in a campaign and then another thing turned out to be the case after the vote. So maybe you trusted them?

If you dismiss what all politicians do on every matter, you should avoid polling stations, news reports and political discussions.

 

[Signalcalc]

Fear 1, 2 and 3? I guess you put more stock in these things than I do, I didn't take much notice.

It didn't, hasn't and won't work, but they'll continue to speculate and make it appear as fact.

Maybe you were shocked that politicians said one thing in a campaign and then another thing turned out to be the case after the vote. So maybe you trusted them?

Not at all, I voted based on instinct

If you dismiss what all politicians do on every matter, you should avoid polling stations, news reports and political discussions.

But if you do that then there is no hope for change, the ballot box is the only weapon one has against a govt that one does not agree with.

 

[Signalcalc]

Fear 1, 2 and 3? I guess you put more stock in these things than I do, I didn't take much notice. As you know, I made my own mind up on the referendum on economic grounds.

I am fascinated about how mere mortals are able to base a decision on economic grounds, when every bank, economist, journo, politician and trading pundit got their calculations and speculations wrong, with such a massive fake news media campaign behind it, they still couldn't influence Brexiteers (or maybe they did but there was such an OUT majority to begin with).