Brexit and the Consequences

[cantagril]

It's clear that the house of Lords didn't understand what they were voting for, we should make them vote again

Drain the swamp. Sign the petition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209433

I understand that abolishing the Lords can seem attractive as eliminating the last vestiges of our own version of the One Party State. OTOH it raises the appalling prospect of our futures being left solely in the hands of ignorant idiots elected by other ignorant idiots....aka populism.

As the saying goes: be careful what you wish for.

 

[Signalcalc]

I understand that abolishing the Lords can seem attractive as eliminating the last vestiges of our own version of the One Party State. OTOH it raises the appalling prospect of our futures being left solely in the hands of ignorant idiots elected by other ignorant idiots....aka populism.

As the saying goes: be careful what you wish for.

The problem with the Lords is that they are effectively a retirement home for time-served politicians (discounting those given special privilege to be there), we didn't elect them, and so logically they do not represent us. The Lords are a historical hangover, just as the Monarchy is, but we like the Monarchy, they are cute and British, they bring in tourists, even if they are an elite institution funded mostly by the tax-payer.

At the very least the Lords should be regarded as an advisory body, with no power or authority to hold any sway over the people we have elected to represent us.

To advise, yes, to persuade, yes, to enforce parliament to take a vote on matters, no. Their powers should be limited in a way that is similar to the monarchy, historically relevent and that's it, we could save a few £millions a year also.

Only publicly funded elected representatives should be making decisions on our behalf as we have entitled them to do so.

It's not really a case of 'be careful what you wish for' more a case of 'it's time we changed an institution that is no longer fit for purpose and no longer serves the voting tax-paying public effectively', as with all changes there would no doubt be unintended consequences that we will just have to live with.

Brexit highlights the constitutional issues the UK has with dealing with matters that represent the modern political world we live in, the times they are a changin', the slow barge of institutions should also be upgrading their engines to keep pace.

 

[barjon]

The problem with the Lords is that they are effectively a retirement home for time-served politicians (discounting those given special privilege to be there), we didn't elect them, and so logically they do not represent us. The Lords are a historical hangover, just as the Monarchy is, but we like the Monarchy, they are cute and British, they bring in tourists, even if they are an elite institution funded mostly by the tax-payer.

At the very least the Lords should be regarded as an advisory body, with no power or authority to hold any sway over the people we have elected to represent us.

To advise, yes, to persuade, yes, to enforce parliament to take a vote on matters, no. Their powers should be limited in a way that is similar to the monarchy, historically relevent and that's it, we could save a few £millions a year also.

Only publicly funded elected representatives should be making decisions on our behalf as we have entitled them to do so.

It's not really a case of 'be careful what you wish for' more a case of 'it's time we changed an institution that is no longer fit for purpose and no longer serves the voting tax-paying public effectively', as with all changes there would no doubt be unintended consequences that we will just have to live with.

Brexit highlights the constitutional issues the UK has with dealing with matters that represent the modern political world we live in, the times they are a changin', the slow barge of institutions should also be upgrading their engines to keep pace.

Although an anachronism in make up the job of the Lords is to hold the Government in check and prevent it going ott. I have long thought - particularly when we used to lurch from left to right and back - that the second chamber should be responsible for setting the long term strategy of the country with the “short term” Government of the day required to operate within the constraints of that strategy and unable to implement policies outside it.

 

[Signalcalc]

Although an anachronism in make up the job of the Lords is to hold the Government in check and prevent it going ott. I have long thought - particularly when we used to lurch from left to right and back - that the second chamber should be responsible for setting the long term strategy of the country with the “short term” Government of the day required to operate within the constraints of that strategy and unable to implement policies outside it.

Sounds reasonable, I hope the petition will spark a parliamentary debate about the role of the Lords, then we will possibly gain some insight into what the rabble that are supposed to represent us are thinking on the matter.

 

[Signalcalc]

Alt-News update

https://altnewsmedia.net/uk/and-who-will-rid-us-of-these-troublesome-lords/

 

[counter_violent]

https://altnewsmedia.net/uk/and-who-will-rid-us-of-these-troublesome-lords/

Hard to argue against any of their campaign policies.

 

[sminicooper]

Been a bit quiet on Brexit of late (hooray I hear in the background) but with the latest shenanigans from Theresa May/Gina Miller and Blairite Tory MPs this just convinces me further in favour of Brexit.

Who on earth would want to live under such a regime?

 

[Splitlink]

Been a bit quiet on Brexit of late (hooray I hear in the background) but with the latest shenanigans from Theresa May/Gina Miller and Blairite Tory MPs this just convinces me further in favour of Brexit.

Who on earth would want to live under such a regime?

View attachment 251676

Mate, I have a horrible idea that what you are experiencing , now, is Brexit.

Labour Day tomorrow. Much strain, much pain ahead--inless one is under drugs, of course, and then one can take it easy, until the baby needs a new dress.

The best thing to do, tomorrow, if one can afford it, is to find a beach and a palm tree, somewhere.

 

[cantagril]

Mate, I have a horrible idea that what you are experiencing , now, is Brexit.

Labour Day tomorrow. Much strain, much pain ahead--inless one is under drugs, of course, and then one can take it easy, until the baby needs a new dress.

The best thing to do, tomorrow, if one can afford it, is to find a beach and a palm tree, somewhere.

You do a good line in pith, Split. And I'd agree that if this isn't Brexit it certainly will be. I think that if one can add the drugs to the beach and the palm tree (or at least some kind of liquid optimism) then the future will look quite rosé.

We'll be able to look back on this period as being "As good as it got" so we all need to relish it whilst it lasts

 

[Atilla]

Does anyone else think Windrush is Brexit related what with our new Commonwealth power block hoisting British influence around the world.

Or is this just my perverse take on affairs


The Queen is not amused. Tut tut tut. :cheesy:

 

[Signalcalc]

Does anyone else think Windrush is Brexit related what with our new Commonwealth power block hoisting British influence around the world.

Or is this just my perverse take on affairs


The Queen is not amused. Tut tut tut. :cheesy:

All I see is weak Tory leadership, a messed-up immigration system and an opposition willing to make political gain. I don't see the Brexit angle, if it was a conspiracy to increase immigration then it's probably going to work, but the narrative does not scream conspiracy, it just screams of incompetence. Labour will attempt to manipulate the situation to pressure the Tories to reduce immigration controls, just as they are trying with voter ID thing, however given that all they have is incompetent Abbott and softly spoken Corbyn, all they will succeed in doing is to make matters worse.

 

[sminicooper]

All I see is weak Tory leadership, a messed-up immigration system and an opposition willing to make political gain. I don't see the Brexit angle, if it was a conspiracy to increase immigration then it's probably going to work, but the narrative does not scream conspiracy, it just screams of incompetence. Labour will attempt to manipulate the situation to pressure the Tories to reduce immigration controls, just as they are trying with voter ID thing, however given that all they have is incompetent Abbott and softly spoken Corbyn, all they will succeed in doing is to make matters worse.

Two big parties each with a useless and weak leader that are doing or passively allowing untold damage to free thinking and an honest and decent society. What are the alternatives – the Greens, Lib Dems, SNP and a ragbag of other no-hopers. Someone please persuade me that there is some future in UK politics!

 

[Atilla]

All I see is weak Tory leadership, a messed-up immigration system and an opposition willing to make political gain. I don't see the Brexit angle, if it was a conspiracy to increase immigration then it's probably going to work, but the narrative does not scream conspiracy, it just screams of incompetence. Labour will attempt to manipulate the situation to pressure the Tories to reduce immigration controls, just as they are trying with voter ID thing, however given that all they have is incompetent Abbott and softly spoken Corbyn, all they will succeed in doing is to make matters worse.

Not suggesting conspiracy and never like that word applied to events that are simply questioned or discussed.

Anyhow, I don't believe in coincidences merely suggesting attempt to bring Commonwealth together to forge a political alliance that can be an international force to be reckoned with be it for trading or military influence is a good idea. Great idea if it can be made to fly.

I'm sure in one of the tea parties words were spoken to the Queen which was subsequently raised behind closed doors. Back chat and all that.

By the way this has nothing to do with Labour. Labour or Tory they all let in numbers which are more driven by the economy. Its the business that demand and employ foreign workers and avoid NI and tax. I've seen custom officers at work. They're supposed to capture illegals and send them home. Why not fine the employers hiring bodies with no NI?

Why not implement National ID cards?

Partially agree about incompetence of all governments but certainly not one party related. Anyhow Windrush issue, why now? Fantastic journalism or crafty manipulation.

All these fantastic and great post Brexit ideas not looking so groovy in practice. One big mess.

 

[cantagril]

By the way this has nothing to do with Labour. Labour or Tory they all let in numbers which are more driven by the economy. Its the business that demand and employ foreign workers and avoid NI and tax. I've seen custom officers at work. They're supposed to capture illegals and send them home. Why not fine the employers hiring bodies with no NI?

Why not implement National ID cards?

For the same reason that the Education system, the Railways, the NHS etc etc can't be fixed by the government without cross-party support....which of course won't be forthcoming because it would remove a stick that any Opposition could use to beat the Government of the day.

Our particular brand of democracy is well past its sell-by date and trying to import foreign ideas (like referenda) when it suits one party is just making things worse.

...and as Identity Cards were mentioned: as far as I know the UK one of the few countries in Europe (not just the EU) that doesn't have them and those countries that do have had them for a very long time. They do indeed make certain tasks of administrating a society easier but also mean that proof of identity can reside in one document only which renders identity theft not necessarily easier but simpler and in some cases more difficult to sort out. A random statistic is that there are approximately double the number of Identity theft cases in France than there are in the UK. That said, the French are more concerned about living with the fall-out from '68 (railways, civil service, unemployment etc etc ) than having ID cards abolished.

 

[Pat494]

The UK is one of the most regulated countries in the world by virtue of the huge number of surveillance cameras and presumably people looking in.
Is this because there are more crooks per square mile than most places ?
This begs the question why do 70% of jailbirds get sent back to prison for re-offending ?
About time politicians grasped this " nettle " and the do-gooders admit their soppy policies have failed.

 

[tomorton]

For the same reason that the Education system, the Railways, the NHS etc etc can't be fixed by the government without cross-party support....which of course won't be forthcoming because it would remove a stick that any Opposition could use to beat the Government of the day.

Our particular brand of democracy is well past its sell-by date and trying to import foreign ideas (like referenda) when it suits one party is just making things worse.

...and as Identity Cards were mentioned: as far as I know the UK one of the few countries in Europe (not just the EU) that doesn't have them and those countries that do have had them for a very long time. They do indeed make certain tasks of administrating a society easier but also mean that proof of identity can reside in one document only which renders identity theft not necessarily easier but simpler and in some cases more difficult to sort out. A random statistic is that there are approximately double the number of Identity theft cases in France than there are in the UK. That said, the French are more concerned about living with the fall-out from '68 (railways, civil service, unemployment etc etc ) than having ID cards abolished.

ID cards is one of those few government things that I think should be left voluntary to individuals. It would be easy to set up a national voluntary ID card scheme. The incentives would be easier identification on dealing with government departments, local authorities, airport security, banks, etc. and perhaps a zero or deeply subsidised card fee. It might be that the dissenters would be outnumbered and lose their opposition.

Likewise for a national DNA database. Libertarians object that maintaining such records is an infringement of human rights. But of there was a voluntary database, I for one would be perfectly happy to make a deposit for the record.

 

[Splitlink]

In Spain, shops want to know your fiscal number (NIF), if one has an account. Plastic cards, like driving licenses, are helpful to residents because they are small and have the NIF on them, plus a photo. They did away with the plastic residents card, for some reason, and issued a paper one instead. Some people carry photocopies of them because they get tatty with age, and have to be folded. Otherwise, it has to be the passport, which is a nuisance if lost. I found that my DL is accepted everywhere. When I communicate with the UK they, sometimes want the NHI number.

If you pay your taxes, you are legal!

 

[sminicooper]

In Spain, shops want to know your fiscal number (NIF), if one has an account. Plastic cards, like driving licenses, are helpful to residents because they are small and have the NIF on them, plus a photo. They did away with the plastic residents card, for some reason, and issued a paper one instead. Some people carry photocopies of them because they get tatty with age, and have to be folded. Otherwise, it has to be the passport, which is a nuisance if lost. I found that my DL is accepted everywhere. When I communicate with the UK they, sometimes want the NHI number.

If you pay your taxes, you are legal!

But in UK we haven't historically lived under regimes where the state or pseudo authority can demand "to see your papers". That's one reason why we are different.

 

[Splitlink]

But in UK we haven't historically lived under regimes where the state or pseudo authority can demand "to see your papers". That's one reason why we are different.

It does no harm to carry identification. It does not worry me, nor anyone that I know. My Word! If that was the only thing that worried me!

 

[NVP]

can i ask the group if / when we think the 2nd referendum vote will happen ?

ooohhhh.......grenade:shuriken:
N