Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

Why 18? People who already have degrees can often get additional degrees in only two years. And now that the expected lifespan is nearing 90 . . .

Hmmm maybe as I reflect on retirement. :whistling

Ok I'll add that one to my bucket list also, what the heck one more won't hurt :cheesy:

 

[tomorton]

I've never quite understood why our Government doesn't actually use the "capitalist" system now they have embarked on that course with student fees. Need engineers? Then offer 10,000 (or whatever) free courses.

Students can still be free to choose which subjects they want to study, but they might have to pay full fees depending on national need.

I thought the capitalist system already does that. Employers experiencing skills gaps increase their salaries to attract the right recruits. Although they may initially be targeting experienced people, it doesn't take long for prospective students to find the courses that lead to these jobs.

Degree course fees are a pointless distraction.

 

[barjon]

..........Degree course fees are a pointless distraction"...........

Aye, but you might as well make use of them whilst they are there.

You may find find students flocking to the "free" courses in the same way they flocked to labour offering to do away with them.

 

[tomorton]

Aye, but you might as well make use of them whilst they are there.

You may find find students flocking to the "free" courses in the same way they flocked to labour offering to do away with them.

UCAS say -
More British youngster than ever before are enrolling in higher education. Students from the least advantaged backgrounds in England were more likely to enter higher education, including ‘Higher Tariff’ universities, than ever before. The least advantaged young people in England are now 65% more likely to go to university or college than they were in 2006.

Some politicians might make out course fees are a fearsome barrier to getting a degree but the numbers don't say that.

 

[barjon]

UCAS say -
More British youngster than ever before are enrolling in higher education. Students from the least advantaged backgrounds in England were more likely to enter higher education, including ‘Higher Tariff’ universities, than ever before. The least advantaged young people in England are now 65% more likely to go to university or college than they were in 2006.

Some politicians might make out course fees are a fearsome barrier to getting a degree but the numbers don't say that.

So, from a personal point point of view, how would you have liked to start your adult life with a £50,000 debt sitting there even though you wouldn't have to start paying it off until you had a decent job. And if you did have a decent job wouldn't you be rather spending your money on things other than paying off the debt.

Of the students I know it obviously didn't put them off going but they sure as hell would prefer not to have it.

 

[tomorton]

The repayments are nothing for an average earner. They are literally zero if you don't make average money. The debt doesn't even appear on your credit rating. After 30 years all remaining debt is wiped out. Moneysavingexpert.com have called it basically free government money.

 

[mike.]

21k is not a great deal for someone with university degree though Tom, I suspect the government are banking on all these grads are going to be making excess of 50k in the near future and can pay the full loan back, dont forget the 6% interest, its not exactly cheap money..

 

[barjon]

The repayments are nothing for an average earner. They are literally zero if you don't make average money. The debt doesn't even appear on your credit rating. After 30 years all remaining debt is wiped out. Moneysavingexpert.com have called it basically free government money.

Latest figures I can find from the National Audit Office relate to position in 2013 when total outstanding loans were £46billion with 35% expected to remain unpaid.
That means £30billion will be repaid which is not chump change.

 

[hhiusa]

21k is not a great deal for someone with university degree though Tom, I suspect the government are banking on all these grads are going to be making excess of 50k in the near future and can pay the full loan back, dont forget the 6% interest, its not exactly cheap money..

Yep. :smart:

It is always amusing to see British people complain about student loans or the cost of university.

21K for an education, try $210K here and 35% corporate tax. It is their own fault for not choosing a major that lands them a job that pays well. Secondly, if people are going to play the "money-isn't-everything-card" then don't complain about debt.

Forbes publishes a list each year about the most unemployable majors. They do this as if it is some secret, but it is not.Fact: people never stop getting sick and they never stop suing one another. This means law and medicine. (Genetics, biochemistry, physics [becoming especially useful in finance]).

Additionally, a degree is only as good as the person holding it. It is not some golden ticket into a great job. It is not enough that you study a worthwhile subject, but also be good at it.

The irony of it all is that many of the youngest companies in the Fortune 500 list have CEOs or founders without degrees. Entrepreneurship is not something than can be learned or is taught in university. If you don't have the drive already, high chance you are not going to be rich. You don't become rich on the uni-to-9-to-5-to-pension-and-NHS-plan.

John Mackey screwed around in college for years before starting Whole Foods.

 

[timsk]

Latest figures I can find from the National Audit Office relate to position in 2013 when total outstanding loans were £46billion with 35% expected to remain unpaid.
That means £30billion will be repaid which is not chump change.

Yes, I'm very much with Jon on this point.

Young people who leave Uni' and start their working lives tens of thousands of pounds in debt can adopt one of two attitudes towards it:
1. They can take it seriously and endeavor to pay it off asap.
2. They can view it as being normal and adopt a thoroughly laissez-faire attititude towards it. In part, this approach may account for the sharp increases in debt in recent years: UK household debt now a record £13,000, says TUC.

With the sole exception of a mortgage, I was brought up with the philosophy of living within my means and only buying what I can afford. That message is no longer getting through to young people. If anything, they are being told the exact opposite, i.e. debt is good - pile it on - more the better.

It seems that not only have the lessons from the 2007/8 crash not been learned - they are being completely ignored. It's an absolute no-brainer to conclude that all this will not end well.
Tim.

 

[cantagril]

Yep. :smart:

It is always amusing to see British people complain about student loans or the cost of university.

Perfectly understandable. Equally understandable is that if one has acquired certain rights and privileges that one is somewhat loath to give them up....particularly when they hit your pocket. I have a daughter starting university in the autumn so the current debate is very close to home. The situation in the US might be far difficult than in the UK but it didn't become that way as rapidly as the UK landscape has changed. We had a historic system and then one year we had another - no gradual progression and more of a short sharp shock....with some smaller after-shocks just to keep us awake

21K for an education, try $210K here and 35% corporate tax. It is their own fault for not choosing a major that lands them a job that pays well. Secondly, if people are going to play the "money-isn't-everything-card" then don't complain about debt.

Agreed....and if you think we Brits have a problem with this, take a look across the channel where at one point the most popular degree course in France was philosophy. I think you can imagine that the sole ability to deal with matters relating to existential questions resulted in a glut of basically unemployable people that still persists to this day.

Forbes publishes a list each year about the most unemployable majors. They do this as if it is some secret, but it is not.Fact: people never stop getting sick and they never stop suing one another. This means law and medicine. (Genetics, biochemistry, physics [becoming especially useful in finance]).

Common sense really. Inter alia, people eat,die, have sex, reproduce etc etc.... and probably aren't going to stop doing those either, so many sectors where demand isn't going to suddenly disappear. Choosing a course to get a job is the subject of considerable advice and guidance in school at A level.

Additionally, a degree is only as good as the person holding it. It is not some golden ticket into a great job. It is not enough that you study a worthwhile subject, but also be good at it.

Again agreed but with the qualifier that the threshold to be paying one's student loan is not a "great" job but an OK job which an OK degree should get you....eventually

The irony of it all is that many of the youngest companies in the Fortune 500 list have CEOs or founders without degrees. Entrepreneurship is not something than can be learned or is taught in university.

Maybe not entrepreneurship but certainly business. If MBAs were worthless then they would not be popular. I would also argue the point that entrepreneurship cannot be learned as that means that entrepreneurs are born. Some are, some aren't. Some start annoyingly early and some slothfully late.

If you don't have the drive already, high chance you are not going to be rich. You don't become rich on the uni-to-9-to-5-to-pension-and-NHS-plan.

Who here has suggested otherwise?

John Mackey screwed around in college for years before starting Whole Foods.

Lots of successful people screw around, screw things up and just screw for years and years before they got it together. Lots of unsuccessful people do exactly the same but miss out the last part.

However it may appear from your standpoint, Britain and the British have a culture which allows society to function "fairly" well. We definitely don't have some of the problems that you have in the US but I think it would be fair to say that the price of that can be seen in the problems that we do have.

 

[tomorton]

Latest figures I can find from the National Audit Office relate to position in 2013 when total outstanding loans were £46billion with 35% expected to remain unpaid.
That means £30billion will be repaid which is not chump change.

Its not cheap for the tax payer but for the individual student the debt is peanuts. They should each borrow as much as they can and get the best possible course. There's no gain here from being under-ambitious.

 

[mike.]

Yep. :smart:

It is always amusing to see British people complain about student loans or the cost of university.

21K for an education, try $210K here and 35% corporate tax.

21K per year is the threshold HH, Once you're yearly earnings are over that, only then you would start to pay the loan back.....The tuition fees themselves average about 9k per year plus any maintenance loans one would need to survive, The loan is written off after 30 years, saying that..I would be surprised if you're not making over 21k after you graduate and start earning.

 

[tomorton]

Yes, I'm very much with Jon on this point.

Young people who leave Uni' and start their working lives tens of thousands of pounds in debt can adopt one of two attitudes towards it:
1. They can take it seriously and endeavor to pay it off asap.
2. They can view it as being normal and adopt a thoroughly laissez-faire attititude towards it. In part, this approach may account for the sharp increases in debt in recent years: UK household debt now a record £13,000, says TUC.

With the sole exception of a mortgage, I was brought up with the philosophy of living within my means and only buying what I can afford. That message is no longer getting through to young people. If anything, they are being told the exact opposite, i.e. debt is good - pile it on - more the better.

It seems that not only have the lessons from the 2007/8 crash not been learned - they are being completely ignored. It's an absolute no-brainer to conclude that all this will not end well.
Tim.

Tim - the student loan isn't debt as we know it.

It doesn't come up against anyone's credit rating.
It doesn't have a time limit by which it must be paid (actually, the reverse is true, its wiped out if its not re-paid).
It isn't secured against property or other assets that could be forfeited.
No family member or parent need stand as guarantor and take on that risk.

The government pick up the bill - that is the tax-paying community, as it always has. This includes the graduate of course as they will hopefully be paying higher tax than the average earner.

For the graduate, no repayments are due of they don't earn at least £21,000. Ever.

If they earn, let's say only just above the threshold, £22,000, they will have to repay 9% per year of the extra £1,000 - that's 90 quid. Should someone on a gross salary of 22k worry about a 90 quid repayment? If they think that's a burden, then they sure as hell ain't a graduate in maths.

 

[timsk]

Tim - the student loan isn't debt as we know it. .
.

Hi Tom,
Yes, I understand all of your points completely. That you've repeated them means I didn't explain - or convey - the point I was wanting to make in my last post very well. Apologies for that; allow me to re-state it differently . . .

Whilst I accept everything you say, students and young people in general are adopting an entirely different attitude towards debt than youngsters of yesteryear. Okay, okay, a student loan isn't the same as a debt to Wonga - I get that. However, do you not accept that this is just the thin end of the wedge and that, to a greater or lesser extent, the increase in personal debt is fueled by a paradigm shift in attitudes towards it? In spite of your well made points, I maintain that the current student loan system feeds into and, even, encourages a laissez-faire attitude towards debt in general. This isn't wise, responsible or financially healthy.

We can argue until we're blue in the face as to whether or not student loans are or aren't 'real' debt - but the fact remains that the personal debt bubble is getting ever larger and that sooner or later it's going to burst. When - not if - that happens, it'll be very bad news for us all.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Vince Cable said it sd have been called graduation tax instead of tuition fees... :idea:

 

[Splitlink]

Tim - the student loan isn't debt as we know it.

It doesn't come up against anyone's credit rating.
It doesn't have a time limit by which it must be paid (actually, the reverse is true, its wiped out if its not re-paid).
It isn't secured against property or other assets that could be forfeited.
No family member or parent need stand as guarantor and take on that risk.

The government pick up the bill - that is the tax-paying community, as it always has. This includes the graduate of course as they will hopefully be paying higher tax than the average earner.

For the graduate, no repayments are due of they don't earn at least £21,000. Ever.

If they earn, let's say only just above the threshold, £22,000, they will have to repay 9% per year of the extra £1,000 - that's 90 quid. Should someone on a gross salary of 22k worry about a 90 quid repayment? If they think that's a burden, then they sure as hell ain't a graduate in maths.

I agree with Tim. It helps to establish an unhealthy attitude towards debt at an early age.

Worldwide, currencies are devaluing. Debt is the major cause of it. Very few live within their means. That is why pensions are worthless , after a lifetime of saving.

t

 

[Atilla]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ld-be-madness-for-u-k-to-reject-close-eu-ties

Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond said it would be “madness” for the U.K. to reject the closest possible ties to the European Union, warning fellow ministers that voters won’t forgive them if Brexit damages the economy.

Hammond welcomed the intervention of business leaders who have called for a transition period as the U.K. departs the EU’s single market, saying it was “helpful.” Speaking to reporters at the Group of 20 summit in Hamburg, he laughed at the idea that Brexit might be undone, saying Britain has never been comfortable in a political union with Europe.

Looks like something resembling Norway's union may be appearing over the horizon.

 

[mike.]

After all split,debt its a man made thing not a force of nature, can we not write everything off and reset the clock set back to zero.....start again.

 

[mike.]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ld-be-madness-for-u-k-to-reject-close-eu-ties

Chancellor of the Exchequer Philip Hammond said it would be “madness” for the U.K. to reject the closest possible ties to the European Union, warning fellow ministers that voters won’t forgive them if Brexit damages the economy.

Hammond welcomed the intervention of business leaders who have called for a transition period as the U.K. departs the EU’s single market, saying it was “helpful.” Speaking to reporters at the Group of 20 summit in Hamburg, he laughed at the idea that Brexit might be undone, saying Britain has never been comfortable in a political union with Europe.

Looks like something resembling Norway's union may be appearing over the horizon.

I bet you were shouting at the telly at QT other night, Jacob Reece-Mog towered above the rest when answering brexit questions, a clear vision of how things should be post brexit...