Brexit and the Consequences

[counter_violent]

This is all a bit wild but something very wrong is indeed going on.

Can it really be OK for indigenous European youth, who have benefitted from stable societies and years of full-time state education, to compete for jobs that an illiterate migrant could tackle? No. But if they are competing for the same jobs, we have a much wore problem than just immigration.

They have all been duped, sold a pup and gotten themselves into debt by getting educated up in meaningless subjects to do jobs that don't exist.

It's One of the biggest cons of our time. Over educated useless people who are on the scrap heap before they even start in the world of work.

 

[Atilla]

Surprise, surprise, cv. I do agree with you there. However, the question is "How are we going to stop them?" They are in. Trump's in. In on a popular vote. In Spain, Podemos is the leftwing popular party. Not in government, yet, but it may well happen next time. In Cataluña, ERC is the party with the most votes and, with two smaller parties, is in government by a hair.

They are the ones who would make Cataluña independent. All they have in their bonnet is independence. What they are going to do, afterwards, is what is worrying the rest of us.

Bless his soul, all my friend, Atilla, can spout is statistics-- and I'm afraid that there are holes in those arguments, too. He, certainly, has a bee up his backside about the Catalans! Give statistics to an unemployed youngster and hear what he says, when, everytime he goes for a job, he is competing with several hundred others.

LOL - not at all me amigo, the bee is in Catalan's bonnet about the rest of Spain. Depends on your perspective where you are standing.

There is much similarity about these peeps like Trump, Farage, Eurosceptics and the Catalan's who bark and make much noise and when the head gives way to the tail - see if it can wag the dog? In mickey mouse cartoon world maybe.


Look at Trump! Would any successful company hire this man to run theirs? No way!

Look at Brexiters! What have they achieved having talked so much? FA. Back to minimising damage.

You'll have the same coming your way with Catalonian indepedence much ado about greed for the few?

It's always easy to talk down and rubbish good work. Difficult to build and produce your own.

Trump's ineptitude is clear enough.

Brexit fiasco now seeping like diarrhea that's about to burst out and make a big mess all over the place. Still can't get over limiting damage to UK economy. What a feature

You shouldn't think Barcelona is successful because of the people in it rather than the location people find them selves in. Just human geography and demographics. Not statistics at all. More mother nature.


There is only one Spain

 

[dbphoenix]

Well a good start might be for a Govt that acts in the interests of the people it represents, as opposed to it's own interests and that of everyone else.

Not much to ask really is it.

And what form of government might that be? Distributistic? All you've provided so far are variants on "somebody's got to do something". This is nothing more than an engine that's idling.

 

[tomorton]

They have all been duped, sold a pup and gotten themselves into debt by getting educated up in meaningless subjects to do jobs that don't exist.

It's One of the biggest cons of our time. Over educated useless people who are on the scrap heap before they even start in the world of work.

I half agree. When there is a PERCEIVED risk that unskilled migrants take the minimum pay jobs that indigenous under-educated and unqualified youth could do, whether its a real risk or not, a rational response is to get qualifications and go for a better job than they could do. Of course, in such circs, get the highest qualifications you can, and to broaden your appeal to employers, NOT in a highly specialised subject like say metallurgy.

The student debt question is a smoke-screen. The repayments only kick in when they're on a good salary, they are hardly crippling, and the debt is eventually written off. It doesn't even show against their credit rating. In any case, following your argument, by making degree courses debt-free we would simply encourage more people to take them, when as you say, there aren't enough jobs for the graduates coming through now. So this is an unlit cul-de-sac.

The problem is, where are the jobs that well educated people could do?

One answer is, many of them used to be in the public sector......

 

[Atilla]

They have all been duped, sold a pup and gotten themselves into debt by getting educated up in meaningless subjects to do jobs that don't exist.

It's One of the biggest cons of our time. Over educated useless people who are on the scrap heap before they even start in the world of work.

You could do with some imho

 

[barjon]

And what form of government might that be? Distributistic? All you've provided so far are variants on "somebody's got to do something". This is nothing more than an engine that's idling.

If my car is playing up I should not be expected to know how to resolve it. Unless I speak up that there is a problem then someone who can fix it can't be aware that they've got to do anything.

 

[dbphoenix]

If my car is playing up I should not be expected to know how to resolve it. Unless I speak up that there is a problem then someone who can fix it can't be aware that they've got to do anything.

The problem, however, is easily diagnosed. Once diagnosed, there are plenty of people who can fix it. This is somewhat different than complaining that your car is playing up and being told that it is what it is.

 

[dbphoenix]

I half agree. When there is a PERCEIVED risk that unskilled migrants take the minimum pay jobs that indigenous under-educated and unqualified youth could do, whether its a real risk or not, a rational response is to get qualifications and go for a better job than they could do. Of course, in such circs, get the highest qualifications you can, and to broaden your appeal to employers, NOT in a highly specialised subject like say metallurgy.

The student debt question is a smoke-screen. The repayments only kick in when they're on a good salary, they are hardly crippling, and the debt is eventually written off. It doesn't even show against their credit rating. In any case, following your argument, by making degree courses debt-free we would simply encourage more people to take them, when as you say, there aren't enough jobs for the graduates coming through now. So this is an unlit cul-de-sac.

The problem is, where are the jobs that well educated people could do?

One answer is, many of them used to be in the public sector......

OTOH, how is it the government's responsibility to tell people what to specialize in? The internet's been around for at least a couple of decades. At some point, the Darwin Effect comes into play.

 

[Atilla]

Yes agreed.

There are academically minded people who would be useless in business.

There are school leavers who've made millions and have fantastic business acumen.

For one party or another to extol the virtues of either are just narrow minded.

Darwin's theory always wins through at the end.

This isn't down to race, colour or creed. One only has to look at World super power and techonology leader USA... In search of excellence it buys in the skill from anywhere in the World or accordingly locates in those areas that give it the best advantage it seeks.

To suggest it should be like this or that can take the argument anywhere designed by the manipulator.

Education should be an equal platform that should be provided to all and let the incumbents follow their dreams.

 

[dbphoenix]

And yet success in business is not everything. OTOH, is it the government's fault that somebody decides to major in medieval French poetry? And if that doesn't work out, there are dustbins to be emptied.

 

[counter_violent]

You could do with some imho

Calm down dear!

I've no intention of swapping remuneration with anyone on here. Educated or otherwise.

 

[cantagril]

They have all been duped, sold a pup and gotten themselves into debt by getting educated up in meaningless subjects to do jobs that don't exist.

It's One of the biggest cons of our time. Over educated useless people who are on the scrap heap before they even start in the world of work.

This may well be the case now but historically the educated were able to get jobs and some subjects were less meaningless than others. Things did more or less work across the western world and did so for several decades.

I think it's pretty obvious to almost everyone that our present day democratic systems are not coping well (if at all in some places) with the issues at hand and for the most part there are few exceptionally talented people in the arena who are able to rally sufficient meaningful support while the populists are doing quite well in that department.

For me anyway, we have an intractable shared systemic crisis and whatever solutions are arrived at that don't address this are doomed to be transitory.

I'd be very interested to hear CV's thoughts on this as I'm sure that you have given it thought. ...and it might provide a respite from the pass-time of Attila-baiting which though I can see has its attractions, is ultimately poor sport

 

[Atilla]

Calm down dear!

I've no intention of swapping remuneration with anyone on here. Educated or otherwise.

fwiw CV, this post raises many issues...

Someone who studies out of passion and desire to learn, understand and master something isn't usually doing it for money.

There are those who pursue making money and study to learn skills and gain experience to earn greatest rewards aren't particularly interested in the learning or the subject matter. It'a means to something else, wealth, status or power. They are not always the brightest or most informed but just sharp shrewd risk takers.

There are others who are in jobs because they recognise it is a living and everyone needs to contribute and pull their weight.

Then there are others who choose a career like wanting to teach, nurse or becoming a fireman because they get job satisfaction as well a salary.

Horses for courses.

Problem with your sentiments and perhaps this applies to good few of us, is that we base our comments on our own personal experience.

This is why governments should set standard national curriculum that is the same for everyone, a level playing field and let young people find them selves in chasing their dreams.

All these private/public/free/religious/grammar schools don't help but fracture education imo.

 

[cantagril]

All these private/public/free/religious/grammar schools don't help but fracture education imo.

Here I cannot agree, at all. Until the beginning of the 20th century almost all education worth having was private and a couple of centuries earlier, religious. The idea that the State is able to or should provide a monolithic system that caters for all cultures, pockets and intellects is unrealistic. In order to do that the playing field has to be levelled much lower down the scale as was the case under communism. I don't believe that any of us would want to repeat that kind of experiment.

If we have a standard curriculum then the means of delivering it is irrelevant. The important thing is that it should succeed in preparing young people for a useful (and with luck rewarding) place in society.

However idealist we may be, the "it is what it is" view isn't anything more than pragmatism. Things could and should be better....but they aren't, so before we set about throwing out the bathwater we have to check whether the baby has been removed first.

 

[dbphoenix]

If we have a standard curriculum then the means of delivering it is irrelevant. The important thing is that it should succeed in preparing young people for a useful (and with luck rewarding) place in society.

This was the question fifty years ago in the US, i.e., what are schools for? And, earlier, a hundred years ago, when school attendance -- at least in the US -- was made compulsory. The question centered on whether schools were for educating the students or for providing them with the skills to get jobs. Eventually the latter took precedence, in most cases obliterating the former. Now of course it has become clear, at least in the US, that the schools have neither educated anybody nor provided them with any marketable skills. Therefore, of what use are they?

 

[Atilla]

Here I cannot agree, at all. Until the beginning of the 20th century almost all education worth having was private and a couple of centuries earlier, religious. The idea that the State is able to or should provide a monolithic system that caters for all cultures, pockets and intellects is unrealistic.

I never said that. State provides the standard platform. If other cultures or pockets of interest and intellects want what ever they want, they do it in their own time and with their own money.

In order to do that the playing field has to be levelled much lower down the scale as was the case under communism. I don't believe that any of us would want to repeat that kind of experiment.You are now running away with your self here. Never suggested anything about systems. Just saying one national curriculum.

If we have a standard curriculum then the means of delivering it is irrelevant. The important thing is that it should succeed in preparing young people for a useful (and with luck rewarding) place in society. Yes and make it fairer based on delivery of results and output. Apples and pears that sort of thing. Having a twang in your voice like Moggy twit stating BS with posh authoritative voice doesn't give the BS any credence, it's still tosh.

However idealist we may be, the "it is what it is" view isn't anything more than pragmatism. Things could and should be better....but they aren't, so before we set about throwing out the bathwater we have to check whether the baby has been removed first.

I don't feel idealist just practical. If somebody wants to send their child to a a Jewish or Madrassas free school let them but not with my tax payers money in place of my national curriculum.

If somebody wants extra private tuition they can buy that too in the free market if there is a demand. However, no splitting of exam papers. Everyone should take the same tests.

 

[counter_violent]

This may well be the case now but historically the educated were able to get jobs and some subjects were less meaningless than others. Things did more or less work across the western world and did so for several decades.

I think it's pretty obvious to almost everyone that our present day democratic systems are not coping well (if at all in some places) with the issues at hand and for the most part there are few exceptionally talented people in the arena who are able to rally sufficient meaningful support while the populists are doing quite well in that department.

For me anyway, we have an intractable shared systemic crisis and whatever solutions are arrived at that don't address this are doomed to be transitory.

I'd be very interested to hear CV's thoughts on this as I'm sure that you have given it thought. ...and it might provide a respite from the pass-time of Attila-baiting which though I can see has its attractions, is ultimately poor sport

Well, to put it simply, it's a numbers game. Years ago, higher education was only open to those who demonstrated the necessary ability to gain entry, but also to compete for a limited number of places. So regardless of subject relevant to job application, the graduate had demonstrated their competency. The cream rises to the top!

Nowadays, just about anyone can get into higher education, but it seems, not for the right reasons. There's a fair chance that wishy washy subjects will not lead to good job prospects. Whooda thunk it !

Education has become a business in it's own right. Students are sold a dream of better job prospects, without ever getting their hands dirty, because it suits the students, it's what they want to hear, and the educators with their never ending gravy train.

Only now are Govts beginning to realise that vocational qualifications are the way forward. The country needs people who can walk the walk, not talk the talk.

 

[dbphoenix]

Well, to put it simply, it's a numbers game. Years ago, higher education was only open to those who demonstrated the necessary ability to gain entry, but also to compete for a limited number of places. So regardless of subject relevant to job application, the graduate had demonstrated their competency. The cream rises to the top!

And there's a large part of the problem, not only the use of such a metaphor but the manner in which one defines "cream". The British have always held the "merchant class" or "tradesmen" or "common people" in disdain, valuing instead the wealthy, the titled, the gentry. Whether or not "higher education" is the sine qua non depends entirely on one's values. If one wants to make real money, become a plumber.

Only now are Govts beginning to realise that vocational qualifications are the way forward. The country needs people who can walk the walk, not talk the talk.

And yet the government created this situation in 1988. British infant and junior schools used to be famous the world over. But the government abandoned all that in favor of an extraordinarily burdensome skills-training curriculum laden with standardized tests. Ditto the US. And here are the results.

 

[Atilla]

Well, to put it simply, it's a numbers game. Years ago, higher education was only open to those who demonstrated the necessary ability to gain entry, but also to compete for a limited number of places. So regardless of subject relevant to job application, the graduate had demonstrated their competency. The cream rises to the top!

Nowadays, just about anyone can get into higher education, but it seems, not for the right reasons. There's a fair chance that wishy washy subjects will not lead to good job prospects. Whooda thunk it !

Education has become a business in it's own right. Students are sold a dream of better job prospects, without ever getting their hands dirty, because it suits the students, it's what they want to hear, and the educators with their never ending gravy train.

Only now are Govts beginning to realise that vocational qualifications are the way forward. The country needs people who can walk the walk, not talk the talk.

There is a danger in your sentiment much like the politburo determining what gets produced and what doesn't coz it knows best.

In a market economy, one that is efficient and fair, that supply of labour and skills is determined by the price market places on the labour ie wage.

If nursing/teaching jobs paid more, then more people would train and apply for such jobs.


What we have is skewed distribution of income where wages are set by old boy networks behind closed doors.

UK doesn't value engineers and looks down on anyone who works with their hands. Same ol sh1t since the Victorian era. Raise rewards and see how apprentice applications rise.

Hang on a minute, Maggie decimated manufacturing. Scrap that idea.
BL manager, graduating from Oxford and Cambridge gets paid 50 x more than an engineer and knows absolute FA about car production. He sounds good when he speaks and people understand the way he pronounced his words it was obvious he went to a very expensive private public school.

We all know it was the unions who took down BL and not management or Tory party declining to give it a 500m subsidy because City bankers couldn't afford it.


Education you say and you know how to do a good job???? Who needs enemies when we have well opinionated uneducated peeps like you.

 

[Atilla]

DB matey did you and I go to the same school or somefink???