Brexit and the Consequences

[dbphoenix]

DB matey did you and I go to the same school or somefink???

Education in the US and the UK did not evolve in parallel, but they evolved in much the same way for much the same reasons. The US has always valued manual labor because it was essential to our growth. But then the Russians launched Sputnik.

As far as the UK goes, it appears that once the Conservatives took over, education became less important than training, but I stopped following all that once my dissertation was done. The decline in schools began here at about the same time, and once I stopped teaching, my focus lay elsewhere. Now here it is thirty years later and I can say "I told you so", but who cares?

 

[counter_violent]

There is a danger in your sentiment much like the politburo determining what gets produced and what doesn't coz it knows best.

In a market economy, one that is efficient and fair, that supply of labour and skills is determined by the price market places on the labour ie wage.

If nursing/teaching jobs paid more, then more people would train and apply for such jobs.


What we have is skewed distribution of income where wages are set by old boy networks behind closed doors.

UK doesn't value engineers and looks down on anyone who works with their hands. Same ol sh1t since the Victorian era. Raise rewards and see how apprentice applications rise.

Hang on a minute, Maggie decimated manufacturing. Scrap that idea.
BL manager, graduating from Oxford and Cambridge gets paid 50 x more than an engineer and knows absolute FA about car production. He sounds good when he speaks and people understand the way he pronounced his words it was obvious he went to a very expensive private public school.

We all know it was the unions who took down BL and not management or Tory party declining to give it a 500m subsidy because City bankers couldn't afford it.


Education you say and you know how to do a good job???? Who needs enemies when we have well opinionated uneducated peeps like you.

Just a min while I try decipher this nonsense.
OK the min is up and I give up! As you were.

 

[Atilla]

Just a min while I try decipher this nonsense.
OK the min is up and I give up! As you were.

You and I have started from the same place CV but funny how we ended up so different?

I honestly wonder how that could be explained.

 

[counter_violent]

There is a danger in your sentiment much like the politburo determining what gets produced and what doesn't coz it knows best.

In a market economy, one that is efficient and fair, that supply of labour and skills is determined by the price market places on the labour ie wage.

If nursing/teaching jobs paid more, then more people would train and apply for such jobs.


What we have is skewed distribution of income where wages are set by old boy networks behind closed doors.

UK doesn't value engineers and looks down on anyone who works with their hands. Same ol sh1t since the Victorian era. Raise rewards and see how apprentice applications rise.

Hang on a minute, Maggie decimated manufacturing. Scrap that idea.
BL manager, graduating from Oxford and Cambridge gets paid 50 x more than an engineer and knows absolute FA about car production. He sounds good when he speaks and people understand the way he pronounced his words it was obvious he went to a very expensive private public school.

We all know it was the unions who took down BL and not management or Tory party declining to give it a 500m subsidy because City bankers couldn't afford it.


Education you say and you know how to do a good job???? Who needs enemies when we have well opinionated uneducated peeps like you.

This is where Brexit comes in.
There is zero point being trained in anything mainstream whilst being part of the EU.
The next time you look, 50 Polish plumbers have invaded your turf, are hot bedding 10 to a room round the clock and under cutting the market rate.

Don't talk to me about market economics. You are as clueless now as you ever were.

 

[Atilla]

This is where Brexit comes in.
There is zero point being trained in anything mainstream whilst being part of the EU.
The next time you look, 50 Polish plumbers have invaded your turf, are hot bedding 10 to a room round the clock and under cutting the market rate.

Don't talk to me about market economics. You are as clueless now as you ever were.

Why can't the endogenous youth compete living at home with mum and dad having full access to HMG's resources?

I've told you before, I've spoken to business people about hiring migrant workers for min wage. I'm told English names apply for job position but don't show for interviews. They just work the JSA system to collect benefits.

Face facts and reality. How will you encourage them to get off their arses?


Scapegoating. Desperate man.

 

[dbphoenix]

Whether the plumbers are from Poland or Liverpool is irrelevant.

Supply and demand.

 

[counter_violent]

Why can't the endogenous youth compete living at home with mum and dad having full access to HMG's resources?

I've told you before, I've spoken to business people about hiring migrant workers for min wage. I'm told English names apply for job position but don't show for interviews. They just work the JSA system to collect benefits.

Face facts and reality. How will you encourage them to get off their arses?


Scapegoating. Desperate man.

Do you see what you wrote there.

It's as if you think that people working for minimum wage is somehow a good thing. That over supply in the labour market is a good thing. There are millions of people working for minimum wage in the UK because of these policies.

 

[cantagril]

Why can't the endogenous youth compete living at home with mum and dad having full access to HMG's resources?

I've told you before, I've spoken to business people about hiring migrant workers for min wage. I'm told English names apply for job position but don't show for interviews. They just work the JSA system to collect benefits.

Face facts and reality. How will you encourage them to get off their arses?


Scapegoating. Desperate man.

IMHO one of the reasons for the ongoing robustness of your debate with CV is that you are both right, at least, in part. There are 10 polish plumbers in my spare room, right next door to the androgenous work shy NEETs who quite literally won't get out of bed for anything much less than the salary of a qualified British plumber.

Brexit WILL solve some problems just as assuredly it will create others.

 

[dbphoenix]

Speaking of supply and demand, Rick Perry, Secretary of the Department of Energy, former Texas governor, and two-time presidential candidate, in a visit to a coal-fired power plant in West Virginia, said "Here’s a little economics lesson: supply and demand. You put the supply out there and the demand will follow."

And one wonders why we're in so much trouble.

 

[dbphoenix]

Do you see what you wrote there.

It's as if you think that people working for minimum wage is somehow a good thing. That over supply in the labour market is a good thing. There are millions of people working for minimum wage in the UK because of these policies.

And who is preventing increases in the minimum wage?

 

[tomorton]

OTOH, how is it the government's responsibility to tell people what to specialize in? The internet's been around for at least a couple of decades. At some point, the Darwin Effect comes into play.

I don't believe it is, and I don't believe they do.

 

[dbphoenix]

I don't believe it is, and I don't believe they do.

Perhaps not directly, at least in a democracy. But via grants, scholarships, stipends and so forth, they can provide direction. The push for more scientists in the late 50s/early 60s, for example. Then of course we wound up with a surplus.

 

[barjon]

Perhaps not directly, at least in a democracy. But via grants, scholarships, stipends and so forth, they can provide direction. The push for more scientists in the late 50s/early 60s, for example. Then of course we wound up with a surplus.

I've never quite understood why our Government doesn't actually use the "capitalist" system now they have embarked on that course with student fees. Need engineers? Then offer 10,000 (or whatever) free courses.

Students can still be free to choose which subjects they want to study, but they might have to pay full fees depending on national need.

 

[dbphoenix]

I've never quite understood why our Government doesn't actually use the "capitalist" system now they have embarked on that course with student fees. Need engineers? Then offer 10,000 (or whatever) free courses.

Students can still be free to choose which subjects they want to study, but they might have to pay full fees depending on national need.

Part of the problem, perhaps a large part, has to do with lag time. If the need for something is relatively temporary, then by the time those who are interested in meeting the need have gone through the process and earned their degree, the need has been filled, and you end up with a lot of whatevers wandering the streets looking for work. Which is why it's important to choose something that isn't vulnerable to this kind of unanticipated "need filling", such as healthcare. Or plumbers. Or electricians. Or mechanics. Or anything else concerned with maintenance.

It's fine for kids to be inspired by Pixar animation, or NASA flights, or botanical gardens of whatever sort, or their father's heart surgeon. But somebody has to be around who can channel these inspirations into something that will provide lasting satisfaction as well as a decent living. Why do we think so many poor children turn to selling dope?

 

[Atilla]

In my time, the way I understood it, an education was something that broadens the mind and teaches something about a little of everything.

The more people of different backgrounds you mixed with and the more traveled better the learned individual becomes. Wiser, cultured and more appreciative of customs far and wide apart.

Traditionally, companies would then hire around their business area but not always and provide the training, building up the individual as it suited them.

I know of one such person who graduated in Greek philosophy and became a charted accountant starting off career hired by Deloitte Haskins.

Companies don't want to spend money training personnel anymore. Obviously with low levels of loyalty, high turn over of staff, it may not be worth the bother when one can hire experienced bodies already available in the job market. In the old days moving also meant a rise in salary.

There is nothing to stop companies starting their apprenticeship schemes and/or training from within.

Polytechnics, I think at some level were better than theoretical university degrees.


Re: tuition fees, make good rationale sense to means test award and subsidise areas where there are skill shortages such as in nursing, teachers & doctors etc. That's what taxation and subsidies are for. Manipulate supply and demand via fiscal controls.

This is a little like pushing the cart. Yes it will work but less effective and slow. Far better to raises wages where there are skill shortages and pull the willing workers in. :idea:

 

[barjon]

"..........Part of the problem, perhaps a large part, has to do with lag time. ................

Probably, but governments are supposed to be able to forecast these things.

 

[dbphoenix]

Probably, but governments are supposed to be able to forecast these things.

Our govt and perhaps yours eventually learned that they suck at it and gave it up. But it's no longer necessary to rely on govt. We have the internet now, and there are a number of organizations that forecast demand, whether five years in the future, or ten, or twenty. Healthcare is of course a biggie, and a giant duh. It's an easy Google to get lists. And one can suggest this to a youngster without assuming the responsibility for his life.

 

[Atilla]

https://www.topuniversities.com/courses/engineering/guide

These courses look like sweets to me. Would love to do one. Anyone.


This captures my imagination :clap::clap::clap:
https://www.topuniversities.com/courses/engineering-environmental/guide

Oh boy, if only I was 18 again

 

[barjon]

Our govt and perhaps yours eventually learned that they suck at it and gave it up. But it's no longer necessary to rely on govt. We have the internet now, and there are a number of organizations that forecast demand, whether five years in the future, or ten, or twenty. Healthcare is of course a biggie, and a giant duh. It's an easy Google to get lists. And one can suggest this to a youngster without assuming the responsibility for his life.

Aye, and government does tend to think short term. Maybe if our second chamber became elected and responsible for the long term strategic goals they could over-ride the government of the day if they tried to introduce policies to the detriment of those long term goals. (Well, something needs to be done )

 

[dbphoenix]

Oh boy, if only I was 18 again

Why 18? People who already have degrees can often get additional degrees in only two years. And now that the expected lifespan is nearing 90 . . .