Brexit and the Consequences

[mike.]

That's great Mikey, it's good to know you'll always be there for me like TM no matter how wrong I am.

A true friend.

I've come across some confidential material online and I think you should pass it to you know who.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ot-softer-brexit-to-keep-u-k-in-single-market

But as Jason was mentioning earlier....He claims there is a clear lack of facts on this thread...So what is "fact" ? Did May's ministers tell you that they were plotting against her ? We just go by what we read...There are 375 pages of debate here, quite a bit of ribbing, quite a lot of non-fact and among that, The odd bit of news that's turned out to be fact... treat everything with skepticism until it's proven...

 

[Atilla]

But as Jason was mentioning earlier....He claims there is a clear lack of facts on this thread...So what is "fact" ? Did May's ministers tell you that they were plotting against her ? We just go by what we read...There are 375 pages of debate here, quite a bit of ribbing, quite a lot of non-fact and among that, The odd bit of news that's turned out to be fact... treat everything with skepticism until it's proven...

Ok let me put it this way.

Theresa May leads us into Brexit negotiations with a strong and stable government.

She has full support of her party, the people and majority of Parliament as well as the House of Lords.

Thank goodness for Theresa May who is there to lead us in our hour of need.

Jeremy Corbyn and Tim Fallon in contrast are losers and very unpopular right now with the public as they weren't clear about where they stood on public service or Brexit matters and hid agendas from their party members.





Zzzzzz

 

[Jason101]

Hi dbp,

I think it's fair to say that everyone who has made substantial contributions to this thread - on both sides of the argument - has put a lot of effort into considering their positions. I certainly have and I know this because my starting position prior to the referendum was to vote remain. I completely changed my views after investigating the issues thoroughly and gaining an insight into how the EU actually functions.
Tim.

It would take a lot of effort on your part. But it would be a fascinating post if you were able to journal your transition of opinion with any links to fact based sourced materials.

 

[mike.]

Ok let me put it this way.

Theresa May leads us into Brexit negotiations with a strong and stable government.

She has full support of her party, the people and majority of Parliament as well as the House of Lords.

Thank goodness for Theresa May who is there to lead us in our hour of need.

Jeremy Corbyn and Tim Fallon in contrast are losers and very unpopular right now with the public as they weren't clear about where they stood on public service or Brexit matters and hid agendas from their party members.





Zzzzzz

:clap: You are starting to grasp the concept....remember how jeremy Corbyn was the most hated leader and nearly all his cabinet resigned last year ? In fact it was the majority of his party that wanted him out.....Well, conservatives have had a little wobble...nothing on the scale of the Labour party and something that will sort its self in a few days...just watch.

 

[Jason101]

But as Jason was mentioning earlier....He claims there is a clear lack of facts on this thread...So what is "fact" ? Did May's ministers tell you that they were plotting against her ? We just go by what we read...There are 375 pages of debate here,...

I am beginning to wonder now if a lot of you guys are just on a wind up, or if you are for real?

I am in danger of getting into the realms of an oxymoron here, which will ultimately prove you correct!

Your above statement is a misrepresentation of the facts.
I have never said "there is a clear lack of facts on this thread..
That is an extrapolation of your choosing in order to fit your purposes.

I am new to this thread and I am sure there are lots of well researched facts on it.
My original posts was about the lack of fact based debate around the brexit campaign and the election.

Then there were a few replies that I thought were to my post, which mirrored my original concerns about the level of debate by the politicians and press.
To which I commented on, can I reiterate here, a few.
How that translates to...".He claims there is a clear lack of facts on this thread.. I am sure only you know.

I am beginning to see a pattern here.

 

[counter_violent]

Ok let me put it this way.

Theresa May leads us into Brexit negotiations with a strong and stable government.

She has full support of her party, the people and majority of Parliament as well as the House of Lords.

Thank goodness for Theresa May who is there to lead us in our hour of need.

Jeremy Corbyn and Tim Fallon in contrast are losers and very unpopular right now with the public as they weren't clear about where they stood on public service or Brexit matters and hid agendas from their party members.





Zzzzzz

At last you are grasping it.
This interview might help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...el-fallon-government-view-on-brexit-unchanged

The parties who have tried to frustrate Brexit didn't make any progress at the election. SNP went backwards. Fact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/scotland
Pro remain party Lib Dems made very little headway overall. Fact.
Nick Clegg lost his seat to a pro Brexit Labour party. Fact.
Lib Dems, on 12 seats, picked up 3 of those seats in Scotland at the expense of the SNP. Fact.
Lib Dems gained 1 seat in England and Wales, but made no real progress. Fact.
Lib Dem vote share went down. Fact.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/england

Conservatives got 43% of the electoral vote. They moved forwards. Fact.
Labour only managed to make headway because they tried to bribe the youth vote with free university education and for those already qualified, writing off student debt. Fact.
Labour have lost the last Three general elections. Fact.

The facts speak for themselves.
As you were chaps, Brexit means Brexit.

 

[mike.]

My point is the lack of factual based debate.

Apologies....I thought you meant in this thread, not in general.

 

[mike.]

At last you are grasping it.
This interview might help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...el-fallon-government-view-on-brexit-unchanged

The parties who have tried to frustrate Brexit didn't make any progress at the election. SNP went backwards. Fact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/scotland
Pro remain party Lib Dems made very little headway overall. Fact.
Nick Clegg lost his seat to a pro Brexit Labour party. Fact.
Lib Dems, on 12 seats, picked up 3 of those seats in Scotland at the expense of the SNP. Fact.
Lib Dems gained 1 seat in England and Wales, but made no real progress. Fact.
Lib Dem vote share went down. Fact.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/england

Conservatives got 43% of the electoral vote. They moved forwards. Fact.
Labour only managed to make headway because they tried to bribe the youth vote with free university education and for those already qualified, writing off student debt. Fact.
Labour have lost the last Three general elections. Fact.

The facts speak for themselves.
As you were chaps, Brexit means Brexit.

Right now.....Atila's googling all of the above......Fact

 

[Jason101]

The establishment went out of it's way to line up experts all telling us that the sky would fall in. This is undeniable.

.

CV, I can promise you that no one has said the "sky will fall in".

I am sure that some people have pointed out some potential negative effects of a brexit.

I can assure you that I have heard TM saying "the sky will not fall in."

When TM said "the sky will not fall in" this was in reply to a question from a reporter about the potential brexit harm to the economy.

TM used this answer to avoid the reporters questions on damage to the economy.
This was not an isolated incident I have also seen another politician (I can not think who now) use the same phrase as a technique in exactly the same situation.

 

[counter_violent]

CV, I can promise you that no one has said the "sky will fall in".

I am sure that some people have pointed out some potential negative effects of a brexit.

I can assure you that I have heard TM saying "the sky will not fall in."

When TM said "the sky will not fall in" this was in reply to a question from a reporter about the potential brexit harm to the economy.

TM used this answer to avoid the reporters questions on damage to the economy.
This was not an isolated incident I have also seen another politician (I can not think who now) use the same phrase as a technique in exactly the same situation.

Hi Jason,

My comments were in regard to the stay/leave campaign itself, obviously way before TM had any involvement.
I have no idea weather TM used this actual statement since she came to prominence post referendum.
Hope that clears it up.

 

[Jason101]

At last you are grasping it.
This interview might help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...el-fallon-government-view-on-brexit-unchanged

The parties who have tried to frustrate Brexit didn't make any progress at the election. SNP went backwards. Fact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/scotland
Pro remain party Lib Dems made very little headway overall. Fact.
Nick Clegg lost his seat to a pro Brexit Labour party. Fact.
Lib Dems, on 12 seats, picked up 3 of those seats in Scotland at the expense of the SNP. Fact.
Lib Dems gained 1 seat in England and Wales, but made no real progress. Fact.
Lib Dem vote share went down. Fact.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/england

Conservatives got 43% of the electoral vote. They moved forwards. Fact.
Labour only managed to make headway because they tried to bribe the youth vote with free university education and for those already qualified, writing off student debt. Fact.
Labour have lost the last Three general elections. Fact.

The facts speak for themselves.
As you were chaps, Brexit means Brexit.

Fact:Love this post.

 

[dbphoenix]

Unfortunately, many of these "facts" are not facts but rather interpretations of data. CV believes they are facts because he believes they support his case. If he believed otherwise, he would not claim that they were facts.

Analytical thinking is in short supply.

 

[counter_violent]

Unfortunately, many of these "facts" are not facts but rather interpretations of data. CV believes they are facts because he believes they support his case. If he believed otherwise, he would not claim that they were facts.

Analytical thinking is in short supply.

The facts do indeed support my contention. Fact.

 

[Jason101]

[/COLOR]Labour only managed to make headway because they tried to bribe the youth vote with free university education and for those already qualified, writing off student debt. Fact.


The facts speak for themselves.
As you were chaps, Brexit means Brexit.

Great Post, Dealing in facts can be thought provoking.
I can not agree with the above though.

I can not agree with the word "only".
While the policy to go back to tax payer funding of university placements would have picked up quiet a few votes. I would be very surprised if "Labour only managed to make headway because they tried to bribe the youth vote with free university education and for those already qualified, writing off student debt"

This would leave out all new Labour voters that were not in education and it would also rule out students who would have voted for Labour even without this policy in the manifesto. These two combined groups are probably quiet large. I would imagine larger than the group currently in university education.

Also the voting pattern can not be taken as an endorsement from voters that a brexit is the right direction for the country to follow. It could well indicate that a certain percentage of voters are resigned to brexit as a due process in democracy. This could potentially lead to a situation where in the time between the original referendum and brexit occurring you could in theory have a very large decline in popularity for brexit, which would continually be ignored. This would not even take into account people that said right after the results that they had voted to leave, as a protest vote, regretting it instantly.

Edit: Also I would add that a lot of people would have voted for a pro brexit Labour in the hope of a hung parliament to facilitate either a watered down brexit or no brexit at all.

 

[dbphoenix]

The facts do indeed support my contention. Fact.

What you interpret as facts appear to support your contention. There's a difference.

 

[counter_violent]

Great Post, Dealing in facts can be thought provoking.
I can not agree with the above though.

I can not agree with the word "only".
While the policy to go back to tax payer funding of university placements would have picked up quiet a few votes. I would be very surprised if "Labour only managed to make headway because they tried to bribe the youth vote with free university education and for those already qualified, writing off student debt"

This would leave out all new Labour voters that were not in education and it would also rule out students who would have voted for Labour even without this policy in the manifesto. These two combined groups are probably quiet large. I would imagine larger than the group currently in university education.

Also the voting pattern can not be taken as an endorsement from voters that a brexit is the right direction for the country to follow. It could well indicate that a certain percentage of voters are resigned to brexit as a due process in democracy. This could potentially lead to a situation where in the time between the original referendum and brexit occurring you could in theory have a very large decline in popularity for brexit, which would continually be ignored. This would not even take into account people said right after the results that they had voted to leave, as a protest vote, regretting it instantly.

Edit: Also I would add that a lot of people would have voted for a pro brexit Labour in the hope of a hung parliament to facilitate either a watered down brexit or no brexit at all.

I don't know how that "only" word got in there.
Not to worry.

You may find the FT's analysis interesting regarding the Brexit issue.

https://www.ft.com/content/dac3a3b2-4ad7-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b?mhq5j=e1

As for any declining support for Brexit, as per my previous post. Anti Brexit parties, ie SNP, Lib Dems, simply did not attract increased voter support, on the contrary, their support declined. So we can only conclude that the majority of people in the UK are happy with the Brexit referendum decision.
What type of Brexit final deal is for those who are negotiating on either side. At this stage, I'm quite sure that no one knows the answer.

 

[Splitlink]

Never mind Boris and the cronies. I'm telling you now, the people made a decision on the EU when asked the question. We will not be changing direction.

If you want proof of this, then you only need look at what happened in Scotland, where the people made a decision to stay part of the UK and Sturgeon was punished for banging on about an issue that had already been resolved.

No, I don't want proof, for Heaven's sake! Just, for the benefit of the UK, get cracking, preferably before the next elections.

 

[counter_violent]

No, I don't want proof, for Heaven's sake! Just, for the benefit of the UK, get cracking, preferably before the next elections.

I'm simply telling it like it is.

I don't think we will even get past stage One, the Brexit bill, before crying foul and stating that the EU are living in cuckoo land. At this point, and if the govt makes a good case, then the Tories troubles could be over. Either whip up the public into a frenzy, call another election, then tough it out.
Or sit and wait and do absolutely nothing for 15 months, pay no exit bill, then do any future business on WTO rules.

Either way, I think we are holding all the aces

 

[Atilla]

Fact:Love this post.

Just interested in how you respond to CV's post before I reply to him.

Are you genuinely impressed with the facts and accept them as they are or just that he has gone to the trouble of listing his pov as opposed to resorting to soundbites?

 

[Atilla]

At last you are grasping it.
This interview might help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...el-fallon-government-view-on-brexit-unchanged

The parties who have tried to frustrate Brexit didn't make any progress at the election. SNP went backwards. Fact. No it is not! It is just your opinion.

1. Some would say SNP lost votes due to IndyRef
2. LibDem increased their seats by 50%
3. To state parties who have tried to 'frustrate' didn't make any progress is at best a leading suggestion. LibDems pov is to put final deal when it is reached to Parliament / People to vote on. Merely an alternative route and a better one imo.
To state SNP's loss of seats as a clear fact is on the contrary a very biased and exclusive opinion to manipulate the mind of the non-thinker and informed bodies - but once again that's just my opinion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/scotland
Pro remain party Lib Dems made very little headway overall. Fact. This is not true. Gross Lie
LibDems increased seats by 50%
Nick Clegg lost his seat to a pro Brexit Labour party. Fact. Sad but true.
Lib Dems, on 12 seats, picked up 3 of those seats in Scotland at the expense of the SNP. Fact. True but he should point out Tories also won 12 seats in Scotland and if not for Ruth Davidson, it would be Labour forming a coalition party right now.
Lib Dems gained 1 seat in England and Wales, but made no real progress. Fact. True but fails to point out LAB won +3 seats and Tories lost -3. Begs the question, if gaining +1 seat is no real progress what is losing -3 seats?


Lib Dem vote share went down. Fact. Not true. Can't have proportional representation in one hand and argue on the other to suit one self.
They increased no of seats from 8 to 12. Perhaps you'd like to vote for proportional representation which was LibDem policy for a long time but one which both Labour and Tories opposed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results/england

Conservatives got 43% of the electoral vote. They moved forwards. Fact. Tosh. I think you must be the only person in England who thinks Tories moved forward.
Conservatives went from a majority of +17 to a deficit of -8. Move forward is incorrect use of the Queen's English or you're comprehension needs a tune up
Labour only managed to make headway because they tried to bribe the youth vote with free university education and for those already qualified, writing off student debt. Fact.More Tosh. In polls, most people including elderly were for removing tuition fees.
Burdening young people with £50K debt and giving corporation tax cuts to some very large global companies along with reducing inheritance tax, along with diverting 500m to Grammar schools (now scrapped) is a policy choice. Moreover, elderly people in their time had free education and maintenance grants.
Labour have lost the last Three general elections. Fact. Yes this is true.

The facts speak for themselves.
As you were chaps, Brexit means Brexit.

+1 more - The facts do indeed support my contention. Fact This one is a tough one to answer but I'll try below..

What you have done is spoken much tosh with one or two statistical facts.

They are more a representation of your failing faculties, lack of comprehension and extreme bias but that's just my opinion.

.