Brexit and the Consequences

[counter_violent]

Hi Signalcalc,
I think you're right and the reason for it is that, sadly and to their great shame, the remoaners have equated free movement of people and migration with racism, xenophobia and hate. Anyone who dares venture down this path is hacked to shreds and demonized. This is a terrible shame, not least because very few people on the leave side (that I'm aware of anyway) dispute for one minute the immense value - both culturally and economically - that people of all colours, faiths and political beliefs from around the globe have contributed to the U.K. That is not in doubt and I, like all leave supporters that I know, welcome them. However, what is also not in doubt is that letting in numbers that equate to a city the size of Birmingham every five years is simply unsustainable. The country isn't large enough and there aren't the necessary resources and infrastructure to support them. So, yes, please let's continue to welcome them, but the numbers must be controlled to a sustainable level. This isn't being racist or xenophobic - it's just plain common sense.
Tim.

Excellent summary apart from Three glaringly obvious omissions.

Free movement of people across the EU.

1) Unskilled mass immigration has depressed wages at the lower end for donkeys years. With the knock on effect that the middle have also been dragged down.

This is One of the root causes for the revolt and leave vote.

2) Free movement has ensured that skilled and unskilled people have moved out of less well off under developed countries within the EU to the more prosperous countries.

The consequence of this is that the countries who were supposed to play economic catch up within the EU, could not and did not make the progress they should have cos everyone fit and able or highly skilled had already left.

3) Free movement has attracted outside migration into the borderless EU which has depressed wage growth and economic expansion, ripped apart existing communities, created ghettos where there previously were none, allowed all kinds of undesirables into the EU because it's easy to hide in a crowd. Crime, assault is now also endemic. Not to mention the terrorists who have spread like cancer through the whole region.

 

[Atilla]

1. There is nothing wrong with cutting corporation tax when there is a positive or balanced budget.

There is something very wrong with cutting corporation tax when there is a big negative budget deficit and starving public sector services of resources and the huge burden it places on staff, morale and support they are able to provide.

To say we are putting more money in (which is a lie in real terms) as the economy grows is not true.

Everybody knows someone who either works in public sector or consumes a public service.


2. What benefits have we actually lost since the referendum you ask? The biggest is uncertainty and deferred investment. Fall in interest rates and the pound as well as rise in prices. Read all about it here... or google for your self. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...inancial-banks-insurance-retail-a7695486.html I suspect it'll get much worse before it gets better as future and nature of Brexit still very uncertain.

3. Prices are rising and we haven't left yet. You saying after we leave prices gonna fall?

4. Jobs front is better than anticipated but don't know much about it. As global economies recover I hope we are able to maintain these levels.

5. Membership fees debatable. Depends if we want to be members of the EU free market and what type.

6. wrt Bilateral agreements TM has already done much work here but won't say anything either way. Based on public releases, we haven't obtained any positive signs from US, China or India. There is our 20m Auzzie friends 3000 miles away thank goodness for that


As for free movement of people, I understood that was one of them but different people place different degree of importance or weight on the issues. For Nigel Lawson it's sovereignty. For Timsk it's easing pressure on resources in the NHS and supporting our Fishing industry. For some others it was a case of getting a seat on public transport or not standing behind a EU citizen trying to enter UK.

fwiw Net migration to UK is also down before Brexit... TM and Rudd seems to have achieved this without so much as trying. Well done to them. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/23/net-migration-to-uk-falls-by-49000-after-brexit-vote

 

[counter_violent]

All due respect....But you do talk some b0ll0cks sometimes...

Can you give reference to some of the lies that you were told during the referendum ? Not ones like "the economy will crash" and "the sky will fall in" from the remain camp but from the leave side ?

ill start you off, with one that you thought was a lie....." were giving the whole 350 million eu membership fee to the NHS" :clap: on the brexit bus...

When what was actually written on the bus said..."We send the EU 350 million per week...Lets fund the NHS instead "

Now, I can see where you got confused, but its not the same thing.....I got it straight away as did many others, do you now see the difference :clap:

only sometimes !

 

[Atilla]

only sometimes !

Unlike your leader :whistling

 

[mike.]

I hope i didnt come across as to harsh earlier.... you, me and c-v like to fire harmless insults back and forth for the banter and I wondered if Jason was jumping to your defense...No harm intended..

My perception is that everything is bound with uncertainty until we leave, But the country cant press the pause button for two years...You can see markets rising, Companies hedging by setting up satellite offices abroad etc etc..But in reality, nothing has changed as yet, everything is still the same pre-referendum, what you see is nervousness and forward planning....

 

[counter_violent]

Come on, Mike, one of the worst things about the referendum was that both sides dealt in yah-boo politics with half truths and worse any many an opinion presented as fact. No-one argued through the pros and cons in anything like an informative, responsible and balanced manner.

Way of the world nowadays I suppose. A sound bite will do, no matter if it's factual or not.

The establishment went out of it's way to line up experts all telling us that the sky would fall in. This is undeniable.

Some of these so called experts actually have criminal records ( Christine Lagauard ) Funny how nobody wants to talk about this !

Osborne has since gone on to further his own self interest, not to mention the fact that he was completely 100% wrong on the Brexit argument.

The pros and cons were argued extensively, the vote took place and the sky didn't fall in. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[barjon]

The establishment went out of it's way to line up experts all telling us that the sky would fall in. This is undeniable.

Some of these so called experts actually have criminal records ( Christine Lagauard ) Funny how nobody wants to talk about this !

Osborne has since gone on to further his own self interest, not to mention the fact that he was completely 100% wrong on the Brexit argument.

The pros and cons were argued extensively, the vote took place and the sky didn't fall in. Quite the opposite in fact.

You must be a day trader, cv. What happens to the sky, for good or ill, won't become clear for a good few years. It's a buy and hold strategy doncha know

 

[Atilla]

The establishment went out of it's way to line up experts all telling us that the sky would fall in. This is undeniable.

Some of these so called experts actually have criminal records ( Christine Lagauard ) Funny how nobody wants to talk about this !

Osborne has since gone on to further his own self interest, not to mention the fact that he was completely 100% wrong on the Brexit argument.

The pros and cons were argued extensively, the vote took place and the sky didn't fall in. Quite the opposite in fact.

Still deluding your self.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leave-no-deal-select-committee-a7630626.html

 

[counter_violent]

You must be a day trader, cv. What happens to the sky, for good or ill, won't become clear for a good few years. It's a buy and hold strategy doncha know

The consequences longer term are a different matter altogether, but lets not forget that on the Brexit path chosen, we have more influence on the progression and outcome as time passes.

Less so being part of a big club where influence is diluted, diminished, overruled, etc.

 

[counter_violent]

Still deluding your self.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leave-no-deal-select-committee-a7630626.html

WTF.

You are now off in the fantasy world of known kowns, unknown knowns and all the rest of it.

It must be exasperating for Davis having to even try and answer such stupid questions.

 

[Atilla]

WTF.

You are now off in the fantasy world of known kowns, unknown knowns and all the rest of it.

It must be exasperating for Davis having to even try and answer such stupid questions.

LOL - You are finally losing it. LOL

He can't answer it because he doesn't know. He has said so. Reason why he doesn't know is because they have done no economic assessment of the UK leaving without a deal.

So when they say No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal, what is he comparing to a bad deal?

How would he know if the bad deal is worse than No Deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leave-no-deal-select-committee-a7630626.html

You need to go back to school dude. You really are losing your faculties.

 

[counter_violent]

LOL - You are finally losing it. LOL

He can't answer it because he doesn't know. He has said so. Reason why he doesn't know is because they have done no economic assessment of the UK leaving without a deal.

So when they say No Deal is Better than a Bad Deal, what is he comparing to a bad deal?

How would he know if the bad deal is worse than No Deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leave-no-deal-select-committee-a7630626.html

You need to go back to school dude. You really are losing your faculties.

That's the point isn't it. Nobody knows the answer to damm fool hypothetical questions.

Does he have a real world day job to carry out, or should he spend time wasted navel gazing.

You really are losing the plot.

 

[Atilla]

That's the point isn't it. Nobody knows the answer to damm fool hypothetical questions.

Does he have a real world day job to carry out, or should he spend time wasted navel gazing.

You really are losing the plot.

Happy to accept what you say here but it just doesn't tally up with No deal is better than a bad deal right!


Until they work out what ever "mitigation procedures" he is referring to they could not quantify outcome.

That begs the question what are mitigation procedures he is referring to.

He goes on to say "What he is certain is true (and what you haven't asked me is the upsides - relaxing 60% of trades with countries outside of EU)".

He then adds punishment and beatings and says "we can manage this better than a bad deal..."

He can't quantify it in detail yet but maybe in a years time. It's not frightening but not simple he says.


This is just political speal with no meat on the bone. Basically it's a load of tosh.


Now after TM's diabolical tripes, would you put your trust in this man, Boris or Leadsom or would you like to have Parliamentary scrutiny over their conduct, produce a white paper and examine and quantify what Brexit is likely to look like before you reduce the UK to an Island trading WTO rules digging around for costly bilateral trade deals with rest of the world.

No I wouldn't. I would insist on Parliament voting on that final deal.


These peoples WorldView is considerably different to rest of the UK and they are damn determined to not let anyone get a look in.

Becareful what you put your name to. Always conduct due dilligence otherwise you'll end up like Fred the Shred.

 

[Jason101]

Hi mike,
Spot on as usual with your comments.

It beggar's belief that remoaners are still carping on about the bloody bus! It was then - and remains now - blindingly obvious that if we leave the EU we would save a shed load of wonga and that the money saved could be put to better use. The NHS is just one example of where it could go: nothing remotely contentious about that in my book.


I can think of a reason to cling to Gina Miller - but it sure as hell ain't for her views on Brexit!

Tim.

This is exactly what my post was about, none thinking sound bites.
Why call people that want to stay "remoaners" in my post I refereed to those that want to leave as "people that want to leave". It's just an un-thoughtful sound bite used as a put down and if you care to consider I did not mention the bus, it was in reply to someone else, who did want to leave the EU.

"we would save a shed load of wonga"
More sound bites, How much is a shed load of wonga? Is this before or after the discount (rebate) and is this before or after the EU money spending on the UK?

And after this you have made no case as to whether or not you believe that the final figure is outstripped by benefits such as investment into the UK, Jobs created due to EU and lots of other benefits such as joint health research projects etc etc ?

This is what is so frustrating and you completely missed my point.

PS

Gina Miller is a British business owner who initiated the 2016 R (Miller and Dos Santos) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union court case against the British government over its authority to implement Brexit without approval from Parliament.
Just think about that. whether you agree with what she did or not.
Have you ever done something like that?
Have you got the mental fortitude to take the government to court and to deal with it.
And should you reduce this to her physical being and what you would like to do to her?

 

[Splitlink]

This is exactly what my post was about, none thinking sound bites.
Why call people that want to stay "remoaners" in my post I refereed to those that want to leave as "people that want to leave". It's just an un-thoughtful sound bite used as a put down and if you care to consider I did not mention the bus, it was in reply to someone else, who did want to leave the EU.

"we would save a shed load of wonga"
More sound bites, How much is a shed load of wonga? Is this before or after the discount (rebate) and is this before or after the EU money spending on the UK?

And after this you have made no case as to whether or not you believe that the final figure is outstripped by benefits such as investment into the UK, Jobs created due to EU and lots of other benefits such as joint health research projects etc etc ?

This is what is so frustrating and you completely missed my point.

PS

Gina Miller is a British business owner who initiated the 2016 R (Miller and Dos Santos) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union court case against the British government over its authority to implement Brexit without approval from Parliament.
Just think about that. whether you agree with what she did or not.
Have you ever done something like that?
Have you got the mental fortitude to take the government to court and to deal with it.
And should you reduce this to her physical being and what you would like to do to her?

I told Timsk, ages ago, that the sum the UK would not have to pay the EU was chicken feed with regard to the spending that goes on at home. The amount will, nowhere near, help NHS with its problems, let alone the other services that need funding. There is so much to be done and the conservatives are cutting everywhere. That budget cannot be blamed on the EU. With, or without the EU, that problem exists and, I'm afraid, Jeremy will make it worse. Britain will be able to borrow the money until the lenders cry a halt. But, whatever, the currency is gradually losing its value.

There's a post there, somewhere, that I cannot be bothered to chase up. The slightest figure, nowadays, costs billions

 

[mike.]

Like any business split, Its not a sound strategy to keep throwing money at the NHS to right its problems...It needs radical reform....Example: People are prepared sit in A&E for 4hrs for minor injuries because a G.P appointment is not available for 3wks...


Latest News...DUP has agreed to the principles of a proposal to back the conservatives on a " confidence and supply basis"

Onwards....:clap:

 

[Atilla]

Like any business split, Its not a sound strategy to keep throwing money at the NHS to right its problems...It needs radical reform....Example: People are prepared sit in A&E for 4hrs for minor injuries because a G.P appointment is not available for 3wks...


Latest News...DUP has agreed to the principles of a proposal to back the conservatives on a " confidence and supply basis"

Onwards....:clap:

Supply and demand problem. One of capacity management. Government needs to prioritise spending. What's important and what's not.

1m over 75s and that number is only likely to grow. People live longer in sickness and disability.

We have family planning and I would introduce departure planning. You know like making Euthanasia legal with checks and controls. It's beyond me why stupid fecking people would take the right to die away from individuals. Including from those with rational minds. That to me is like torture and prolongs suffering.

I would also consider introducing health tokens and encourage personal responsibility. Have different tracks depending on what level of tokens used up. George Best comes to mind. Give the feck a new kidney and he'll just drink it to death again. What's the point if we don't see him play football again.

Then there is the usual - spend the same amount of money as our G7 colleagues to keep in step and meet demand.


I hope that's what you mean by 'radical reform' and not management speal about trying to find cost savings and improve productivity by paying people less for doing more work over longer hours.

 

[timsk]

Hi Jason,

This is exactly what my post was about, none thinking sound bites.
Why call people that want to stay "remoaners" . . .?

My post was in response to a comment that Mike made and was in no way an attack on you. Be that as it may, I duly note that you take umbrage at the label 'remoaners' and, after some reflection, have this suggestion for you to consider. You decide on an appropriate collective noun that does not offend you that describes the many remain voters who continually voice their dissatisfaction at the result of the referendum and, in particular, their unhappiness with those who voted to leave. I will then do all I can to encourage Brexiteers to drop 'the r word' and use the new word of your choosing. In return, I ask one small thing. Please will you ask all the _______________ (insert new word here) to respond in kind by not labeling those of us who voted to leave as a bunch of toxic xenophobic racists, consumed by hate and have peanuts for brains that are incapable of understanding the issues. Obviously, these labels aren't anywhere near as offensive as the r word but, nonetheless, they're not very pleasant. That's a fair deal wouldn't you say?

. . .Have you ever done something like that?

Now, on to Mrs. Miller. Yes, I think she's an attractive woman. Unfortunately, my compliments about her begin and end there. You asked me if I've ever done anything like she has? In other words, you're asking if I've ever embarked on an epic vanity project because I have the time, money and influence to take the government down a pointless cul-de-sac that serves no purpose other than to waste everyone's time and heaven knows how many thousands of pounds from the public purse. The woman's a disgrace and she should be ashamed of herself. So, in answer to your question - no I've never done anything so self centered and egotistical. Unlike her, I have the mental fortitude to accept that I live in a democracy and to abide by the results it delivers - even when I don't always agree with them.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

And still no-one is talking about the real and basic reason why we voted for Brexit - to end free movement of people.

Hardly mentioned during the election campaign and seems to be even less so now.

That is the one fundamental reason why so many voted Brexit.

This is one question that really needs addressing as it is skewing and manipulating peoples minds.

I have spoken to many on door steps who've said similar thing whilst pointing out they are not racist as their next door was a foreigner. I have been also told to sod off and other words like "we've had the vote let's just get on with it". I believe them. They are tired and fed up of debate and that's it.


Do the following points change your perception in any way or how you might approach this issue?

1. Foreign student numbers account for 60% of migrant numbers.
- They bring in 50K approx p/a
- Some go back and some stay. Gov has no stats on numbers that stay
- They fill skills shortage

2. Majority of remaining 40% migrants are from non-EU countries like the commonwealth
- More commonwealth citizens bring their families and relatives across to the UK than EU migrants

3. Apparently only 40% of the youth voted in the Brexit referendum. In this 2017 election that number was 70%, most for Corbyn.


So if migration is the most important part of Brexit for you, I would urge you to look at migration issue a little more closely than what Farage and other hard Brexiters may state about the issue. :idea:

 

[dbphoenix]

Hi Jason,

My post was in response to a comment that Mike made and was in no way an attack on you. Be that as it may, I duly note that you take umbrage at the label 'remoaners' and, after some reflection, have this suggestion for you to consider. You decide on an appropriate collective noun that does not offend you that describes the many remain voters who continually voice their dissatisfaction at the result of the referendum and, in particular, their unhappiness with those who voted to leave. I will then do all I can to encourage Brexiteers to drop 'the r word' and use the new word of your choosing. In return, I ask one small thing. Please will you ask all the _______________ (insert new word here) to respond in kind by not labeling those of us who voted to leave as a bunch of toxic xenophobic racists, consumed by hate and have peanuts for brains that are incapable of understanding the issues. Obviously, these labels aren't anywhere near as offensive as the r word but, nonetheless, they're not very pleasant. That's a fair deal wouldn't you say?

Excellent rationalization for behaving childishly. Perhaps if we put as much effort into considering our positions as we do thinking up names to call each other . . .