Brexit and the Consequences

dbphoenix said:
Of interest:

EU migrants contribute far more in tax than they take out in welfare or benefits. Despite frustratingly successful attempts to label immigrants – especially from Eastern Europe – as health and benefit tourists, the facts put such myths to bed. According to 2014 research by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini of UCL, between 2001 and 2011, recent immigrants from the Central and Eastern European countries that joined the EU since 2004 made a net fiscal contribution of about £5bn. Over the same period, native Britons made a negative contribution of an enormous £617bn.

City A.M.
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Poor attempt at spin.:arrowu:

It's a supply and demand issue. Cut off supply, wages go up.

Mass unskilled migrant labour has the effect of keeping wages down. Lowering the standard of living for those at the bottom and increasingly the middle. It also reduces the tax taken by govt coupled with increased demand/pressure and spending on services.
 
counter_violent said:
Poor attempt at spin.:arrowu:

It's a supply and demand issue. Cut off supply, wages go up.

Mass unskilled migrant labour has the effect of keeping wages down. Lowering the standard of living for those at the bottom and increasingly the middle. It also reduces the tax taken by govt coupled with increased demand/pressure and spending on services.
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You're a speed reader.
 
Most of the remain camp politicians have got behind the government now to work on getting the best deal and a smooth transition, The odd numpty like Hesseltine and "pants down paddy" still moaning a bit and of course Atilla :LOL:..

Its almost like you want the country to fail so you can write...


Todd you so..:whistling :whistling :whistling :(

Well, it aint gunna happen, we will thrive. :clap:
 
mike. said:
Most of the remain camp politicians have got behind the government now to work on getting the best deal and a smooth transition, The odd numpty like Hesseltine and "pants down paddy" still moaning a bit and of course Atilla :LOL:..

Its almost like you want the country to fail so you can write...


Todd you so..:whistling :whistling :whistling :(

Well, it aint gunna happen, we will thrive. :clap:
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Not at all. I want the UK to succeed with all my might, heart and soul. :love::love::love:

I will also speak out against the mad Europeans where I feel our interests are trodden on. It's just that at the moment I feel we are doing that for who ever our enemies and competitors are. Sadly so. So so sad. :(

I should also add I don't really care much for nationalism and getting one over the other fellow. It is possible to have a win:win scenario where everyone benefits. That's called negotiating a good deal. :)

Heseltine, Clarke and Nick Clegg and the all the other remainers want best for the country and I don't believe they want the UK to fail at all. Sad to think Brexiters should think that.

We all need to come together and work for each other. I'm all for unity. Not isolationism. Never have been.

I don't think you see through the lies of the politicians. Having made a big song and dance about sovereignty, no sooner they want to rough shod passing laws and making decisions over Parliament.

The whole decision, approach, conduct is all so horribly wrong imho.

Hope I am wrong. (y)
 
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As Tusk and his merry band of negotiators appear to be taking the tough ,if not ignorant approach to brexit it makes perfect sense to adopt all of the current EU legistlation/laws, Time is of the essence here...

These can be adopted, dismissed or amended at later dates, i'm sure many a good argument will be had in parliament about these laws when the time is right, but at the moment everything is working so lets not try and fix it...
 
mike. said:
As Tusk and his merry band of negotiators appear to be taking the tough ,if not ignorant approach to brexit it makes perfect sense to adopt all of the current EU legistlation/laws, Time is of the essence here...

These can be adopted, dismissed or amended at later dates, i'm sure many a good argument will be had in parliament about these laws when the time is right, but at the moment everything is working so lets not try and fix it...
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Aye to that - thought the same thing but what we now have is a big leap in the dark imo.
 
I'll post this on reform.

Once Brexit is out of the way, we really must bring our institutions up to date and fit for purpose going forward. I'm not up for scrapping the second chamber, but it needs serious reform.

 
mike. said:
I'll wind down tonight's debate with a few fib's from a remoaner...:LOL: ...Enjoy.

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Yep, it's up to all us Brexiteers to keep the pressure on the remoaners and take them to task wherever and whenever nonsense is uttered.

:love: The battle for hearts and minds :love:

:LOL::LOL::LOL:
 

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timsk said:
Yes, the right thing is regaining sovereignty. The only value I'm assigning to it is having it in the first place - which we've now got - so I'm happy. What we do with it is another matter entirely. That said, I'm happy with how it's working out so far and I'm very confident it'll work out well in the long run.
Tim.
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I don't know if this is what you mean, but sovereignty should go without saying. You don't or shouldn't ask, "What am I getting in exchange for the sovereignty?" You might as well be Tibet or Hong Kong at that point. It may seem that Hong Kong has sovereignty, but one misstep and China pulls on the reins.

A country without sovereignty is like a car without an engine. The car looks like it works, but obviously doesn't. The EU-UK relationship is like the China-Hong Kong relationship: "you can do what you want as long as it is what we (EU, China) want."

Case in point - You (UK) can fish in your waters as long as you fish what we tell you to fish. Where have I heard that before?
 
So, the UK having played by the rules and given due notice under Article 50, we have the following situation with the EU negotiations already:

1. They want to play dirty tricks over Gibraltar
2. They want £50 billion upfront
3. They don't want to come to an early agreement to safeguard the rights of both EU and UK citizens
4. They want to make an example of us - "Pour encourager les autres"
5. One of their only 2 major & net contributors out of 28 is leaving
6. The leaver has one of the most successful European economies
7. The EU’s political and economic structure is in dire need of reform to cure its own unemployment & other shortcomings.

Hardly the epitome of pragmatism you might think. And yet, leading Remainers are still putting out the idea that the UK is being unreasonable & awkward! :LOL:

The European philosophy rather reminds me of a situation many years ago when I was trying to buy a second-hand car from a guy privately. In place of his totally unrealistic asking price I offered him the going rate – cash on the nail. But he turned me down “I need the asking price to pay off my debt”. As far as I know he is still trying to sell it.
 
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sminicooper said:
So, the UK having played by the rules and given due notice under Article 50, we have the following situation with the EU negotiations already:

1. They want to play dirty tricks over Gibraltar
2. They want £50 billion upfront
3. They don't want to come to an early agreement to safeguard the rights of both EU and UK citizens
4. They want to make an example of us - "Pour encourager les autres"
5. One of their only 2 major & net contributors out of 28 is leaving
6. The leaver has one of the most successful European economies
7. The EU’s political and economic structure is in dire need of reform to cure its own unemployment & other shortcomings.

Hardly the epitome of pragmatism you might think. And yet, leading Remainers are still putting out the idea that the UK is being unreasonable & awkward! :LOL:

The European philosophy rather reminds me of a situation many years ago when I was trying to buy a second-hand car from a guy privately. In place of his totally unrealistic asking price I offered him the going rate – cash on the nail. But he turned me down “I need the asking price to pay off my debt”. As far as I know he is still trying to sell it.
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Gibaltar has been a sore point with Madrid for decades. My personal opinion is that it belongs to Spain, as does Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco. This is just the start. There are 26 other members that have a veto.

As far as Point 3. is concerned, That is one of the first points that EU wants to clear up. At least. by the tv and papers that I am looking at and reading.

The other points you make may, or may not be, correct but some of them are a matter of opinion.

As always, it takes, at least, two to make an agreememt and, in this case, there may never, be one.

de Gaulle vetoed UK entry into the EU on two occasions. I thought, at the time, that he was wrong. History tells me that he was not.
 
sminicooper said:
So, the UK having played by the rules and given due notice under Article 50, we have the following situation with the EU negotiations already:

1. They want to play dirty tricks over GibraltarThis is how UK press chooses to report what to do with Gibraltar which causes a bit of an issue on how to treat the place when UK leaves. Makes sense really given they ar more dependent on Spain. Much ado about nothing!
2. They want £50 billion upfront Negotiation on UK's commitments that amount is likely to come down.
3. They don't want to come to an early agreement to safeguard the rights of both EU and UK citizens We should just make a unilateral announcement here. Once again much ado about nothing
4. They want to make an example of us - "Pour encourager les autres" This really is key imo. EU should not give UK a better deal than what it has now. It would be crazy for her to do so. It's not about punishment. It's simply business. Paid up FULL Membership has advantages above and beyond others. UK politicians and people do not see it. Which is why Brexit means Brexit. Brexit does not mean I'm all in but don't wish to pay for privilages or adhere to 4 freedom principals.
5. One of their only 2 major & net contributors out of 28 is leaving For now yes. Will not remain that way.
6. The leaver has one of the most successful European economies Remains to be seen. The leaver had a lagging failing economy before she joined the EU.
7. The EU’s political and economic structure is in dire need of reform to cure its own unemployment & other shortcomings. Changes are required yes but the unemployment has been in response the global failure of financial insitution and economic recession. EU economy is now growing again.

Hardly the epitome of pragmatism you might think. And yet, leading Remainers are still putting out the idea that the UK is being unreasonable & awkward! :LOL:

The European philosophy rather reminds me of a situation many years ago when I was trying to buy a second-hand car from a guy privately. In place of his totally unrealistic asking price I offered him the going rate – cash on the nail. But he turned me down “I need the asking price to pay off my debt”. As far as I know he is still trying to sell it.
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As for your car argument, you are simply stating the benefits obtained from EU are not worth the annual contributions we make.

That is considerably different to stating we would like our own sovereignty and make up our own rules and determine which directives and regulations to adhere to or not but we still want full comprehensive free access to all European markets.

We do not wish to be subject to ECJ laws in any conflict resolution or pay any monies towards infrastructure and EU bloated admin and institutions for supporting that market.

We would like to pick and choose exactly how many EU migrant labour can come to our country to work and do not wish to be bound by any EU labour laws.

There is more but I won't go on.


When it comes to negotiations, it is the UK who has started this competitive poker game about not showing ones card and we hold the upper hand and what a great deal the EU has to lose and we are walking aaway if we don't get what we want.


Where I think a mistake is being made by Europe is not negotiating on the new agreement to replace the departure. These deals can take hell of a long time and even workshops to outline what the options on the table may be, would be great benefit on both, current leave negotiations and planning for the new one.

Then there is the transition process which would also benefit.

(y)
 
Further to my comments about Gibraltar, I think that it is a bargaining chip that Madrid is using. Probably, involves other agreements between Spain/UK. ie. expats on both sides.
 
Splitlink said:
Further to my comments about Gibraltar, I think that it is a bargaining chip that Madrid is using. Probably, involves other agreements between Spain/UK. ie. expats on both sides.
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I can't help thinking Split, relationship between UK and Spain is very good and strong and that this is just a smoke screen by Spain spreading disinformation displaying unity with EU.

Right now Gibraltar has no bearing none what so ever on negotiations. Suits both Spain and UK. UK citizens will get their backs up and put it self behind Brexit as a way of clipping remainers.

Eye candy for the masses to have their little victory saying we get to keep Gibraltar in exchange for such and such.

I really think its much ado about nothing to play people.
 
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