Brexit and the Consequences

[hhiusa]

Fair points Jon.
Regarding your grandchildren - I rather suspect they'll have much bigger issues on their plate to contend with than the legacy of Brexit - and that's assuming the legacy is a negative one - which I for one don't think it will be. Climate change (environment), nuclear weapons proliferation (war / nutters), unsustainable debt (global financial meltdown) and epidemics (obesity, new strains of flu and the antibiotics resistance crisis etc.)

Dunno about you Jon, but I'm glad I'm not going to be around to have to deal with that lot!
:cheesy:
Tim.

Throwing away the extant present in exchange for a non-existent what-if future is the epitome of absurdity. The bremoaning b.s. reminds me of the movie Blast From The Past with Brendan Fraser. It was set during Cuban Missile Crisis. Fearing that the end was near and a nuclear holocaust between Russia and the US was imminent, the protagonist's father builds a fallout shelter underneath his house. They hide out in it for decades, giving up their freedom and their present, only realize 30 years later that nothing happened.

If the crisis was not to be averted, I would not want to spend it in a bunker. That sounds like a pyrrhic victory, to be the lone survivors.

They hid away for nothing. Fear-mongering about the Brexit in the present about some possible untoward future is irrational. Live in the present, not the future.

Hasn't anyone heard of "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it", "“If you want to be happy, do not dwell in the past, do not worry about the future, focus on living fully in the present.”

 

[timsk]

. . . Hasn't anyone heard of "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it", "“If you want to be happy, do not dwell in the past, do not worry about the future, focus on living fully in the present.”

Lol hhiusa - you are a card.
In broad terms I agree with you, but then there's nothing said or implied in my post recommending anyone throw away "the extant present in exchange for a non-existent what-if future". No bunkers, no fear mongering. Just placing Brexit in a global context and speculating that barjon's grandchildren may have bigger issues to worry about in the future than the fallout from whatever deal is struck between the U.K. and the EU. They may - they may not - who knows. Either way, by any stretch of the imagination, it really isn't a controversial statement!
Tim.

 

[hhiusa]

Lol hhiusa - you are a card.
In broad terms I agree with you, but then there's nothing said or implied in my post recommending anyone throw away "the extant present in exchange for a non-existent what-if future". No bunkers, no fear mongering. Just placing Brexit in a global context and speculating that barjon's grandchildren may have bigger issues to worry about in the future than the fallout from whatever deal is struck between the U.K. and the EU. They may - they may not - who knows. Either way, by any stretch of the imagination, it really isn't a controversial statement!
Tim.

I only brought it up, only in response to the use of grandchildren by barjon, not to accuse you of anything. It was meant more general. I have seen a few people here who seem to keep talking about the possibilities" of lost income, jobs,... if the Brexit occurs. I hear a whole lot of IFs and IFs don't exist. They also seem more worried about the EU, the rest of the Europe, and everywhere else other than their own country. Why don't these British people have more national pride?

They keep saying "we need the EU". Is Britain so weak, it cannot fend for itself? You know the power of positive thinking, Britain has a better chance when people believe it does. And why am I, an American, stressing this to the British? Shouldn't you be doing it yourselves?

 

[timsk]

. . .They keep saying "we need the EU". Is Britain so weak, it cannot fend for itself? You know the power of positive thinking, Britain has a better chance when people believe it does. And why am I, an American, stressing this to the British? Shouldn't you be doing it yourselves?

Hi hhiusa,
Whether you realize it or not - you've rather neatly encapsulated in these few sentences the cultural differences between the U.S. and the U.K. It's just not the British way to shout from the rooftops that Britain is great - or the best - and to put two fingers up to the rest of the world. It's extremely rare to see anyone on any side of the political fence behaving in what one might characterize as jingoistic. No one likes that in the U.K. Also, we'd sooner play down our own skills and abilities, rather than big ourselves up into being something we might not be able to live up to. Running through all of this is a curious sense of humour that you guys in the U.S. seldom understand - let alone appreciate. I don't mean you personally, rather your fellow country(wo)men in general. We are what we are and you are what you are - both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Tim.

 

[sminicooper]

Hi hhiusa,
Whether you realize it or not - you've rather neatly encapsulated in these few sentences the cultural differences between the U.S. and the U.K. It's just not the British way to shout from the rooftops that Britain is great - or the best - and to put two fingers up to the rest of the world. It's extremely rare to see anyone on any side of the political fence behaving in what one might characterize as jingoistic. No one likes that in the U.K. Also, we'd sooner play down our own skills and abilities, rather than big ourselves up into being something we might not be able to live up to. Running through all of this is a curious sense of humour that you guys in the U.S. seldom understand - let alone appreciate. I don't mean you personally, rather your fellow country(wo)men in general. We are what we are and you are what you are - both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Tim.

And that has surprised quite a few nations in the past. It will also surprise the EU.

 

[hhiusa]

Hi hhiusa,
Whether you realize it or not - you've rather neatly encapsulated in these few sentences the cultural differences between the U.S. and the U.K. It's just not the British way to shout from the rooftops that Britain is great - or the best - and to put two fingers up to the rest of the world. It's extremely rare to see anyone on any side of the political fence behaving in what one might characterize as jingoistic. No one likes that in the U.K. Also, we'd sooner play down our own skills and abilities, rather than big ourselves up into being something we might not be able to live up to. Running through all of this is a curious sense of humour that you guys in the U.S. seldom understand - let alone appreciate. I don't mean you personally, rather your fellow country(wo)men in general. We are what we are and you are what you are - both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Tim.

that is all well and good.

I think that that British aspect is encroaching (lol) over here or its the universal far-left view (lol jk). it apropos you should mention "jingoist", it is very much like the left (not that you necessarily are) to exaggerate and inflate simple national pride into jingoism - "extreme nationalism in the form of aggressive foreign policy", just as it is like the far-right to call any non-deregulationist a "commie liberal".

I am not promoting "aggressive foreign policy". Simply having national pride does not make somebody jingoist. If the British way is to be more modest, so be it. I am not trying to split hairs or start an argument, but I think people throw around the word "jingoist" too much. More Americans are indeed calling other Americans "jingoists" for having national pride. I think the subdued modesty of the Brits is what makes them THEM. Like you said, to each their own.

Globalization (globalisation for you) does not mean that we have shed our cultures, national identities, or borders. You can have national pride and still respect other cultures. As for me, globalization just means that we have to realize that we actually have to start to play nice with others in the sandbox.

 

[dbphoenix]

It's just not the British way to shout from the rooftops that Britain is great - or the best - and to put two fingers up to the rest of the world. It's extremely rare to see anyone on any side of the political fence behaving in what one might characterize as jingoistic. No one likes that in the U.K. Also, we'd sooner play down our own skills and abilities, rather than big ourselves up into being something we might not be able to live up to.

OTOH, there is a great deal of shouting about "sovereignty". Some of those who go on about it seek the self-determination that they believe is denied them in the EU. But others go on about it because they dream of lost empire and the days when Britain "ruled the waves", just as so many Trump supporters long for an imagined past in which American was universally loved and admired (and everyone made tons of money and all the children were well-behaved and respectful and non-whites "knew their place").

But none of this is a movie, or a novel, much less -- as in America -- reality TV. And much of the thinking is simply unrealistic.

 

[sminicooper]

.........
But others go on about it because they dream of lost empire and the days when Britain "ruled the waves",
..............

That was the case in the immediate post-war period (WW2) up to the 1960s when the middle and upper classes found it difficult to accept post-war reality. I'd argue that that's certainly not the case anymore and although the British class system is certainly alive and kicking albeit in a diluted form, we are not under any illusions of Empire and ruling the waves.

Nevertheless, many of us do feel that sovereignty has been ceded to the EU and we are glad at the prospect of reclaiming it. Whether or not the reclamation will be just that or some political fudge, we shall find out in due course.

 

[dbphoenix]

That was the case in the immediate post-war period (WW2) up to the 1960s when the middle and upper classes found it difficult to accept post-war reality. I'd argue that that's certainly not the case anymore and although the British class system is certainly alive and kicking albeit in a diluted form, we are not under any illusions of Empire and ruling the waves.

Nevertheless, many of us do feel that sovereignty has been ceded to the EU and we are glad at the prospect of reclaiming it. Whether or not the reclamation will be just that or some political fudge, we shall find out in due course.

It's not so much a subject of argument but rather what is reported in the British media. As to winding down by the 60s, the Falkland Islands kerfuffle took place in '82.

As for the current events, there is what is nearly a belief among certain Brexiters that the world is waiting to throw money at GB, but as yet no one has provided any evidence that this will or is likely to occur.

 

[timsk]

Hi dbp,

OTOH, there is a great deal of shouting about "sovereignty". Some of those who go on about it seek the self-determination that they believe is denied them in the EU.

Yep, I'm very much in this camp.

But others go on about it because they dream of lost empire and the days when Britain "ruled the waves", just as so many Trump supporters long for an imagined past in which American was universally loved and admired (and everyone made tons of money and all the children were well-behaved and respectful and non-whites "knew their place").

Nope, I'm definitely not in this camp. Moreover, my impression is that although you're correct in what you say, the number of people who feel like this is relatively small and in decline. Of the many people I know who voted leave because they (like me) wanted to take back control, I don't know of a single one who hankers after some supposed golden age of the past where, as you put it, Britain "ruled the waves".

But none of this is a movie, or a novel, much less -- as in America -- reality TV. And much of the thinking is simply unrealistic.

Perhaps you're alluding to something I'm not aware of or don't understand but, if your comments are intended to be taken literally, then I disagree that it's unrealistic for a country to want to have it's own laws and be self governing. On the contrary, we made it a reality on 23rd June last year!
Tim.

 

[dbphoenix]

. . . my impression is that although you're correct in what you say, the number of people who feel like this is relatively small and in decline. Of the many people I know who voted leave because they (like me) wanted to take back control, I don't know of a single one who hankers after some supposed golden age of the past where, as you put it, Britain "ruled the waves".

It appears that many UK citizens are as likely to operate within bubbles as so many Americans are. This is perhaps why perceptions of outsiders of the UK can be so different from natives.

Perhaps you're alluding to something I'm not aware of or don't understand but, if your comments are intended to be taken literally, then I disagree that it's unrealistic for a country to want to have it's own laws and be self governing. On the contrary, we made it a reality on 23rd June last year!
Tim.

Wanting may not be unrealistic. But the expectations of the results are another matter.

 

[Atilla]

I don't feel I have any more control than before.

I strongly feel we've lost our more extensive freedoms (at individual and corporate business level).

We now have a bunch of football hooligans negotiating Brexit with their steel capped boots and donkey jackets threatening consequences if they don't get their way.

I thing the so called Great repeal bill says it all. Having criticised the EU her directives and regulations to thy kingdom come, we'll just pass one bill and claim 43 years worth as ours then the EU will know we are still with them and feed us cake.

UKIP will be telling the little elderly peeps in Clacton On Sea, don't worry darlings, we'll have this place heaving and hiving just like the 1960s in no time just as we promised on our red bus.

Peeps going to get some hard reality checks very soon.

 

[Atilla]

I'm still waiting to hear what will be exporting to the rest of the world too.

As it stands we are exporting our super industries for a song with the drop in the pound.

Exporting jobs to EU

Paying more for food and holidays

Handicapping our industry with WTO rules if no soft Brexit option

Whilst EU progresses at looking towards new deals and horizons in the far east, our government and civil service will be sorting out paperwork, directives and regulations for the next 10 years at least.

Oh... and making bilateral deals with who ever we want.


No worry we have our sovereignty to shoot our selves in the foot if we want to coz we can.


Can someone remind me what this government achieved with China and India. Slapped China by pulling the Nuclear plant deal (I guess uncle Sam had a hand in it telling us what to do) and said we'll look at how we can work better with India.

Two freaking biggest markets outside of Europe and that's the best they can do.

If I hear one more time NZ and Ozzie's queuing up to do business with us I'll throw up.

 

[timsk]

Hi dbp,

It appears that many UK citizens are as likely to operate within bubbles as so many Americans are. This is perhaps why perceptions of outsiders of the UK can be so different from natives.

I take your point but, equally, it doesn't necessarily follow that the perception of outsiders is correct!

Wanting may not be unrealistic. But the expectations of the results are another matter.

Possibly. For me personally though, and everyone I know who voted leave, our expectations extend no further than regaining sovereignty so that it's our own elected politicians who tell us what we can and can't do. Sure, they might (and probably will) make a dogs dinner of it - but that's not the point. So, far from being unrealistic, this goal has already been achieved. The point being that It's the principle of the thing that's important: everything begins and ends there, period. And that's why I never bought into project fear from the remain camp: it's about doing the right thing which, thankfully, we are finally going to be able to do.
Tim.

 

[timsk]

. . . If I hear one more time . . .

Well, how can I refuse an invitation like that. So, just for you . . .
NZ and Ozzie's are queuing up to do business with us!

 

[Atilla]

Hi dbp,

I take your point but, equally, it doesn't necessarily follow that the perception of outsiders is correct!


Possibly. For me personally though, and everyone I know who voted leave, our expectations extend no further than regaining sovereignty so that it's our own elected politicians who tell us what we can and can't do. Sure, they might (and probably will) make a dogs dinner of it - but that's not the point. So, far from being unrealistic, this goal has already been achieved. The point being that It's the principle of the thing that's important: everything begins and ends there, period. And that's why I never bought into project fear from the remain camp: it's about doing the right thing which, thankfully, we are finally going to be able to do.
Tim.

Sovereign Parliament decides to invoke Article 50 and pass the Great repeal bill.

I say potaytoe and you say potatoe...

I say politicians messing with peoples minds.

Think about it? :whistling

 

[dbphoenix]

For me personally though, and everyone I know who voted leave, our expectations extend no further than regaining sovereignty so that it's our own elected politicians who tell us what we can and can't do. Sure, they might (and probably will) make a dogs dinner of it - but that's not the point. So, far from being unrealistic, this goal has already been achieved. The point being that It's the principle of the thing that's important: everything begins and ends there, period. And that's why I never bought into project fear from the remain camp: it's about doing the right thing which, thankfully, we are finally going to be able to do.
Tim.

If the goal is to leave, then, yes, that goal was realistic and achieved. Where the Brexiters come up short is the "then what?".

What exactly is "the right thing"? If you mean regaining sovereignty, assigning a value to it may not be the wisest course.

 

[timsk]

Hi again dbp!

If the goal is to leave, then, yes, that goal was realistic and achieved. Where the Brexiters come up short is the "then what?".

That's the criticism leveled at the leave campaign by those that wanted to stay in. Personally, I don't care a jot that that question is largely unanswered. We've got control, that's all that matters. What we do with it is neither here nor there. I might have felt differently if giving control to the EU was working out well. But, as others have gone to great lengths to explain here and elsewhere - it was a disaster. And getting worse by the day. So, given the choice between staying in the EU and going down the toilet - or leaving the EU and making our own way in the world - it's a no brainer. After all, what's the worst that can happen? Answer: we go down the toilet, so we'll be no worse off than we would have been had we stayed in! In trading terms, as many have advised countless newbies on here: 'what would you rather do - give all your money to someone else to lose - or to have a go yourself? Better to lose your own money than have someone else lose it all for you.' Same principle applies to us leaving the EU.

What exactly is "the right thing"? If you mean regaining sovereignty, assigning a value to it may not be the wisest course.

Yes, the right thing is regaining sovereignty. The only value I'm assigning to it is having it in the first place - which we've now got - so I'm happy. What we do with it is another matter entirely. That said, I'm happy with how it's working out so far and I'm very confident it'll work out well in the long run.
Tim.

 

[dbphoenix]

It would appear that the view of Brexiters is not unlike that of Trump supporters.

 

[timsk]

It would appear that the view of Brexiters is not unlike that of Trump supporters.

In some cases, perhaps. Equally, it's easy to jump to conclusions and to draw parallels and think you see similarities where very few exist. What I've said isn't particularly controversial as I doubt there's anyone who doesn't want control of their own destiny - either as individuals or collectively as a country. I'm sure just as many democrats as republicans would sign up to that.