Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

In some cases, perhaps. Equally, it's easy to jump to conclusions and to draw parallels and think you see similarities where very few exist. What I've said isn't particularly controversial as I doubt there's anyone who doesn't want control of their own destiny - either as individuals or collectively as a country. I'm sure just as many democrats as republicans would sign up to that.

I'm afraid all these lofty words about sovereignty and control are just that. Simply words with no substance, accuracy or meaningful distinction.

We are simply talking about a voluntary membership of a trading club that has integrated to provide economies of scale and efficiencies along with extensive four freedoms.

You will understand this once we start paying for the costs of in housing those administrative duties into our national borders.


The Great repeal bill should shout that to you loud and clear.


Right now business are beginning to think about the curtailment of their freedoms perhaps more than individuals.

Heard Butlins have 40% European staff and wondering how they'll be able to fill same positions as the summer season gets going with British personnel. Farmers and NHS seeing less applications for roles likewise.

 

[barjon]

In some cases, perhaps. Equally, it's easy to jump to conclusions and to draw parallels and think you see similarities where very few exist. What I've said isn't particularly controversial as I doubt there's anyone who doesn't want control of their own destiny - either as individuals or collectively as a country. I'm sure just as many democrats as republicans would sign up to that.

I remember the Cold War in the sixties when either side seemed to be prepared to blow the world to smithereens rather than be subject to the others political system. I was paired with a Russian guy at some conference or another and it transpired that the only real difference in our lives was that I could go on the streets and call our masters idiots (I never did) and he could not, I had choice in what I could buy and he had little choice, I could play a part in choosing my masters (not that it ever made much difference to general living) and he could not.

Very important principles involved, maybe, but very little real difference for both of us as we went about our daily lives.

 

[dbphoenix]

In some cases, perhaps. Equally, it's easy to jump to conclusions and to draw parallels and think you see similarities where very few exist. What I've said isn't particularly controversial as I doubt there's anyone who doesn't want control of their own destiny - either as individuals or collectively as a country. I'm sure just as many democrats as republicans would sign up to that.

Depends. If the sovereignty of the individual comes into conflict with the sovereignty of the group, there will likely be problems, such as with libertarianism. Then of course there are the problems that are attendant to isolationism. "Invictus" is all well and good, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a political philosophy.

 

[timsk]

Depends. If the sovereignty of the individual comes into conflict with the sovereignty of the group, there will likely be problems, such as with libertarianism. Then of course there are the problems that are attendant to isolationism. "Invictus" is all well and good, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a political philosophy.

Dbp,
If you wish to lump together Brexiteers with leave supporters - that's your prerogative. Nonetheless, it's a mistake. All this stuff about Britain ruling the waves, the empire, invictus and isolationism etc. has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with why I (and most other people I know) voted leave. You can think it's about that if you want - but you'd be wrong.

I didn't care for Trump before the election and I care for him even less now he's in office. My political leanings are far more closely aligned with the Democrats than with the Replublicans. Sorry if you find that unpalatable - but I'm afraid you can't put people in the Trump camp simply on the basis that they support leaving the EU. I'm on record here saying that I wouldn't vote for either party. From an ideological perspective, I'd have voted for Clinton. Sadly, at a personal level (as opposed to a political one) she proved herself to be unsuitable for office.

As for political philosophies - they all leave a lot to be desired - we just have to make do with what we have.
Tim.

 

[timsk]

. . .Very important principles involved, maybe, but very little real difference for both of us as we went about our daily lives.

Hi Jon,
I understand your point and accept it completely. But I'd still rather be in your shoes than those of your Russian colleague.
Tim.

 

[dbphoenix]

Dbp,
If you wish to lump together Brexiteers with leave supporters - that's your prerogative. Nonetheless, it's a mistake. All this stuff about Britain ruling the waves, the empire, invictus and isolationism etc. has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with why I (and most other people I know) voted leave. You can think it's about that if you want - but you'd be wrong.

I didn't care for Trump before the election and I care for him even less now he's in office. My political leanings are far more closely aligned with the Democrats than with the Replublicans. Sorry if you find that unpalatable - but I'm afraid you can't put people in the Trump camp simply on the basis that they support leaving the EU. I'm on record here saying that I wouldn't vote for either party. From an ideological perspective, I'd have voted for Clinton. Sadly, at a personal level (as opposed to a political one) she proved herself to be unsuitable for office.

As for political philosophies - they all leave a lot to be desired - we just have to make do with what we have.
Tim.

None of which addresses the question of "now what?". But this particular arc has run its course.

 

[timsk]

. . .The Great repeal bill should shout that to you loud and clear. . .

Hi Atilla,
Sorry you don't much care for my lofty words. And I try so hard!

As for the great repeal bill, I have no issues with it at all. Seriously, I don't see a problem. This was all explained pre-referendum as I recall and is just a logical and sensible way to proceed. Once the EU stuff is incorporated into U.K. law - we can then tinker with it to our heart's content. However, as I've said before, there's lots of good in what the EU has done, so I imagine that in the vast majority of cases we'll leave well alone.
Tim.

 

[timsk]

None of which addresses the question of "now what?". But this particular arc has run its course.

As I've already addressed your 'now what' point, I agree the record is starting to repeat itself.
Have a good weekend dbp.

 

[Atilla]

Hi Jon,
I understand your point and accept it completely. But I'd still rather be in your shoes than those of your Russian colleague.
Tim.

You argue like Trump!

This isn't about shoes. Point is about the consequences of your actions.

Here you can have my shoe.

 

[Mr. Charts]

It would appear that the view of Brexiters is not unlike that of Trump supporters.

I've got to disagree with that statement.

Both Brexiteers and Trumpeteers hold quite a wide range of views, just as most people are not hard left or right politically but have differing views on various subjects. The process of deciding who to vote for is clear to many but others need to think and consider which option to go for - usually the lesser of two evils.
I think it's a mistake to label all people simplistically as either Brexiteers or Trumpeteers. Some decided on a balance of probabilities and views.

I'm very sad that this country won't be enriched by more hard working immigrants/ temporary workers.
Maybe not giving benefits paid for by people who actually work to those who choose to sit at home and watch TV, smoke and drink, might encourage them to go out and work for a living.
Less money going out in benefits might mitigate to some extent the loss in economic wealth walking away from Europe.
And to those people who voted for Brexit and end up losing their jobs as firms move away into the continent.....well, what can you say.
As a rough rule of thumb benefits should go to those who are unable to work, those people who actually need help and support or workers from closed industries who have no work available.
That should set the cat among the pigeons

 

[dbphoenix]

I've got to disagree with that statement.

Both Brexiteers and Trumpeteers hold quite a wide range of views, just as most people are not hard left or right politically but have differing views on various subjects. The process of deciding who to vote for is clear to many but others need to think and consider which option to go for - usually the lesser of two evils.
I think it's a mistake to label all people simplistically as either Brexiteers or Trumpeteers. Some decided on a balance of probabilities and views.

All true. However, both groups have been sold a particular product, and while Trump voters are only beginning to discover that they may not have got what they paid for, Brexit voters may not understand what they bought for quite some time. Nonetheless, the nature of the exchange is much the same.

 

[counter_violent]

Just ignore the trolls Tim

Just ignore the trolls Tim, they lost the argument and the ideological debate long ago.

The Brexit vote itself was a foregone conclusion. Just a rubber stamp exercise.

It was great fun though debunking and demolishing all the remoaner's so called facts.
The world didn't end as they promised it would. They have nowhere to go with their fake protestations either. No organised opposition and certainly no credible leader to put the different splinter groups together, let along argue the case.

I'm actually rather embarrassed for them tbh.

Anyway, putting all that aside, it's clear now that the UK needs to deal with the job in hand. Brexit means Brexit, so lets just all get on with it !

ps Atilla.....I'm still going for gold...time permitting

 

[barjon]

Just ignore the trolls Tim, they lost the argument and the ideological debate long ago.

The Brexit vote itself was a foregone conclusion. Just a rubber stamp exercise.

It was great fun though debunking and demolishing all the remoaner's so called facts.
The world didn't end as they promised it would. They have nowhere to go with their fake protestations either. No organised opposition and certainly no credible leader to put the different splinter groups together, let along argue the case.

I'm actually rather embarrassed for them tbh.

Anyway, putting all that aside, it's clear now that the UK needs to deal with the job in hand. Brexit means Brexit, so lets just all get on with it !

ps Atilla.....I'm still going for gold...time permitting

sure enough the world hasn't ended. Mind you the things your heros said - all that cash for the NHS, an end to immigration etc etc - has been disowned faster than a blinking eye as well.

I know you'd really like us to shut up and stop pointing out the unpalatable truths but you can always keep drowning them out with the handy (but pretty meaningless) slogans like Brexit means Brexit. Or, god forbid, that old "take back control" one that became so tiresome.

 

[counter_violent]

sure enough the world hasn't ended. Mind you the things your heros said - all that cash for the NHS, an end to immigration etc etc - has been disowned faster than a blinking eye as well.

I know you'd really like us to shut up and stop pointing out the unpalatable truths but you can always keep drowning them out with the handy (but pretty meaningless) slogans like Brexit means Brexit. Or, god forbid, that old "take back control" one that became so tiresome.

What unpalatable truths might those be then? Are there some new One's I don't know about

Taking back control means many things. Uppermost in my mind is that our own useless politicians will have no hiding place in the future. For years they have hidden behind the EU façade. They no longer have a hiding place...do a good job or GTFO.

 

[timsk]

. . .This isn't about shoes. Point is about the consequences of your actions.

Hi Atilla,
I was responding to Jon's post which wasn't about consequences of one's actions. However, since you mention it, the consequences of our decision to leave the EU is that we'll be free from the unelected, irremovable, unaccountable, self-serving metropolitan elite who don't care two hoots about the U.K. (other than our money) and are only interested in their own political ambitions and feathering their own nests. How - or why - anyone thinks that's anything other than a very positive and sensible course of action is something I struggle to understand. In all the posts on here, in all the articles I've read, in all the YouTube videos I've watched, in all the radio and TV programes I've tuned into - I've never once come across a single remainer who is able to provide even a half reasonable response to this most fundamental of issues.
Tim.
PS. And it's got sweet FA to do with Trump!

 

[Splitlink]

Well, how can I refuse an invitation like that. So, just for you . . .
NZ and Ozzie's are queuing up to do business with us!

To lighten up a little bit.

Your post about Oz and NZ forming a queue reminds me of a joke.

Spaniards don't, normally, queue. The busier, over-the-counter shops, probably use a number machine. You take the number and your turn comes up on a screen. In the others, the last one in asks, "Quien es el ultimo?" "Who's the last one" and they keep tags that way.

In the UK this joke has, probably, been done to death but it raises a laugh when I tell it to Spaniards.

Q. What is the first thing that two Englishmen do on a desert island?

A. Form a queue.

 

[Atilla]

Hi Atilla,
I was responding to Jon's post which wasn't about consequences of one's actions. However, since you mention it, the consequences of our decision to leave the EU is that we'll be free from the unelected, irremovable, unaccountable, self-serving metropolitan elite who don't care two hoots about the U.K. (other than our money) and are only interested in their own political ambitions and feathering their own nests. How - or why - anyone thinks that's anything other than a very positive and sensible course of action is something I struggle to understand. In all the posts on here, in all the articles I've read, in all the YouTube videos I've watched, in all the radio and TV programes I've tuned into - I've never once come across a single remainer who is able to provide even a half reasonable response to this most fundamental of issues.
Tim.
PS. And it's got sweet FA to do with Trump!

If EU has been running the UK for the last 40 / 20 years - then why do we have Parliament and the Lords?

I bet you don't care for numbers, statistics or facts do you?

80% of the farming and food standards in the EU is the result of British agency standards?

Finally, I recognise it's not about the shoe and your response was to Jon but find it amazing you need to explain. Nor is this about sovereignty, Russian democracy or shoes.

It's about our freaking politicians and their whims.

I recall you voting leave had something to do NHS and fisherman and that's about it. I hope you hold our politicians to account on delivery of benefits. Give a few jobs to fisherman and lose a damn site more to Europe in motor, finance and pharmaceutical industries. Great idea. Hope that works out for all your Brexiteers.

Try painting some numbers see it improves your logic :cheesy:

You read one or two articles about NHS tourism costing 500m ignoring revenue from tourism and get tired of waiting in queues coz government will not spend money. Ignore the 1m more aged over 75 years of age who can't be sent home incase they injure them selves and somehow it's all the fault of EU. I'd bet most of those NHS tourism is from old Commonwealth countries too and nothing about EU migrants who pretty much have equally good if not better Heatlh System in their own countries.


Fecking politicians. TM included, lying two faced moo who simply has her head up her rear. All the same. Not much different to Gove, Boris or Leadsom.

Just horrified how people can trade all the benefits to some sovereignty lies which on the contrary restrict freedoms as business now finding out and soon people will do so too.

 

[counter_violent]

If EU has been running the UK for the last 40 / 20 years - then why do we have Parliament and the Lords?

I bet you don't care for numbers, statistics or facts do you?

80% of the farming and food standards in the EU is the result of British agency standards?

Finally, I recognise it's not about the shoe and your response was to Jon but find it amazing you need to explain. Nor is this about sovereignty, Russian democracy or shoes.

It's about our freaking politicians and their whims.

I recall you voting leave had something to do NHS and fisherman and that's about it. I hope you hold our politicians to account on delivery of benefits. Give a few jobs to fisherman and lose a damn site more to Europe in motor, finance and pharmaceutical industries. Great idea. Hope that works out for all your Brexiteers.

Try painting some numbers see it improves your logic :cheesy:

You read one or two articles about NHS tourism costing 500m ignoring revenue from tourism and get tired of waiting in queues coz government will not spend money. Ignore the 1m more aged over 75 years of age who can't be sent home incase they injure them selves and somehow it's all the fault of EU. I'd bet most of those NHS tourism is from old Commonwealth countries too and nothing about EU migrants who pretty much have equally good if not better Heatlh System in their own countries.


Fecking politicians. TM included, lying two faced moo who simply has her head up her rear. All the same. Not much different to Gove, Boris or Leadsom.

Just horrified how people can trade all the benefits to some sovereignty lies which on the contrary restrict freedoms as business now finding out and soon people will do so too.

Reminder.

It was the people who forced the referendum by keep voting for UKIP and all manner of anti establishment protest votes. This has been going on for years. Did you sleep through it all thinking it couldn't possibly happen?

Wake up...smell the :clover::clover::clover::clover:

 

[Atilla]

Reminder.

It was the people who forced the referendum by keep voting for UKIP and all manner of anti establishment protest votes. This has been going on for years. Did you sleep through it all thinking it couldn't possibly happen?

Wake up...smell the :clover::clover::clover::clover:

Yes, I'm sure as those in Clacton On Sea will get to smell the BS of UKIP very soon too.


Is it not clear the referendum was just one big protest vote for many dimwits who don't have their lights turned on.

 

[dbphoenix]

Of interest:

EU migrants contribute far more in tax than they take out in welfare or benefits. Despite frustratingly successful attempts to label immigrants – especially from Eastern Europe – as health and benefit tourists, the facts put such myths to bed. According to 2014 research by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini of UCL, between 2001 and 2011, recent immigrants from the Central and Eastern European countries that joined the EU since 2004 made a net fiscal contribution of about £5bn. Over the same period, native Britons made a negative contribution of an enormous £617bn.

City A.M.