Brexit and the Consequences

My children's school have different classes within the same comprehensive school for different abilities. I hear there are two different math levels.

Education is different and football is not the same. In football once a player is scouted into the team they get the same training. So I miss what point you are trying to make.


I also feel TM is using grammar school as a political gambit as a ruse to say Tory party gives you choice and rear that old typical labour tripe about them and us.

What we should have is a world class standard education system for all. That should be the ideal.


All this we give you choice sh1t is just trash for them and us. Divides country and nation and does not unite.

The comprehensive you are talking about maybe pretty good; I also know of others like that. But believe me, there are plenty where it doesn't work like that and despite all the good education theory the atmosphere is not conducive to learning – often caused by kids whose aspirations are poor and don't see why others should do any better. There is a comparison with football in my opinion – try being part of a team where the whole aim in life is not to be the best: you wouldn't last very long.

And why is it, that so many socialists and politicians in influential places choose to send their kids to feepaying schools? If the comprehensives are so good why don't they use them?
 
You used to. What happened?

Politicians kept changing things to add value.

Michael Gove the Brexit Champion has become the 'most' hated Education Secretary EVER!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...at-makes-people-hate-him-so-much-7628063.html


Michael Gove is the most hated Education Secretary ever. Discuss. If you had been sitting at teachers' union conferences for the past eight days, you might think so. Do not just take my word for that. Listen to what some of the delegates have been saying.

For instance, Sarah Caffrey, from Bristol, at the National Union of Teachers' conference in Torquay, called him an "evil entity who hovers around and seems to think we're doing such an excellent job we should be working longer and longer hours for less and less pay".

So how has this well-mannered man described by one teachers' leader as "charming" during the past week stirred up such a hornet's nest? (The teachers' leader did add, however: "He doesn't listen.")

The truth is that no Education Secretary of right or left has embarked on such a radical programme of reform so quickly since ... well, possibly since Kenneth Baker introduced his Great Education Reform Bill of 1987 which ushered in Ofsted, the education standards watchdog, national testing of all children at 7, 11 and 14 and the first signs of a move towards school autonomy by allowing schools to opt out of local authority control.

It is a moot point as to which incurred the greater wrath – after all there were boycotts of the national tests as a result of Kenneth (now Lord) Baker's reforms.

On balance, I think it would have to be Gove – his reforms have coincided with the squeeze on public spending which have led to curbs on teachers' pay and cuts to their pension. These are the issues that have prompted the most serious threats of industrial during this year's conference season.

Votes by the NUT and National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers have left schools facing national strikes on pensions. In the NUTs case it will start in the summer term with a proposed national stoppage in June plus regional strikes and further industrial action by both unions on both issues in the autumn.

To be fair to Mr Gove, these issues have not really emanated from his department. All public servants are facing the same squeeze from the Treasury. What has, though, is the drive to promote academies and free schools – another issue that prompted strike demands this Easter. The NUT, in particular, is calling for teachers in every school planning to become an academy to be sounded out on whether they want to take strike action over it.

The likelihood is that there will be some strikes – 22 took place in the past year as the number of academies soared to 1,800 – but most planning to convert will go ahead unscathed. Where Mr Gove may have trouble is in converting schools into academies against parents' and teachers' wishes, as is happening at Downhills primary school in Haringey, north London. This school – where parents differ from Mr Gove and Ofsted in refusing to believe it is failing – could well become a cause celebre if teachers begin strike action.

That brings us on to Ofsted – where NUT members have asked their executive to look at whether they could withdraw co-operation from inspectors and actually show them the door. The likelihood is this will quietly be pushed into the long grass with such action being declared a breach of contract. With all the other battles it has on, the union is unlikely to want to get involved in that one. That it was called for in the first place is in part down to Mr Gove's decision to appoint the hard-nosed headteacher Sir Michael Wilshaw as chief schools inspector (who believes headteachers should model themselves on Clint Eastwood – standing on their own and getting things done). He wants "satisfactory" schools renamed as "requiring improvement", and "no notice" inspections. With his reforms to exams – A-levels to set by leading academies, a reviewed national curriculum focussing on traditional or 1950's values depending on your point of view, teacher training to be done in the classroom rather than those nasty Marxist teacher training colleges, Mr Gove is making a root and branch reform of the whole education system. Small wonder, therefore, that he has inspired so much ire.

Undoubtedly, there will be significant amounts of industrial action in schools in the months ahead – especially as the two big teachers' unions already have a mandate to strike from earlier ballots on pensions and (in the NASUWT's case) pay. Most hated ever, though? Having sat through 33 years of teachers' union conferences, I find that too close to call.

Testing times: past education secretaries

Sir Keith Joseph (1981-86)

Introduced the Technical and Vocational Education Initiative, which teachers saw as dividing children at 14 into academic "sheep" and vocational "goats".



Kenneth Baker (1986-89)

Introduced Ofsted inspections, national-curriculum tests for seven-, 11- and 14-year-olds, proposal to allow schools to opt out of local-authority control and run themselves as grant-maintained schools.



John Patten (1992-94)

Generally thought by teachers to be incompetent but famously diverted attention from a serious report on school discipline by declaring he had been flogged by a monk at school.



David Blunkett (1997-2001)

Faced a demonstration at an NUT conference and was forced to take refuge in a small room after promising as shadow Education spokesman to introduce Fresh Start scheme – closing down underperforming schools and reopening them with a new name and staff if Labour got in.



Charles Clarke (2002-04)

Pushed top-up-fees reforms through the Commons – charging students up to £3,000 a year.
 
Part of the problem, perhaps the problem, is egalitarianism, or at least egalitarianism carried to an extreme. This was certainly the case in the US in the 60s and 70s and may have been what prompted the decline in your schools as well (I did my dissertation over there). One of the things I liked most about your schools is that children were not only allowed but encouraged to seek their own level along with pursuing their own interests (and by that I mean reasonably serious interests). But perhaps that wasn't enough for the "professionals" who've never taught a class. We've now reached a level where everybody must be doing the same thing in the same way and meeting the same standards, no matter what. This of course is at best unrealistic.

All of which is off-topic, but there you are.
 
Londoners Reject British ‘Traitors’ Peddling Terror Dystopia on Fox News

Britain’s capital carried on in defiance of terror attacks Thursday while British ‘traitors’ tell Fox News that London is divided and cowering in fear.

“If it was up to me I’d take Hopkins and Farage’s British passports away and tell them to **** off,” wrote Emma Kennedy, a well-known British author and actress.


Yes super quote. I also thought Sadiq Khan stating he has more important things to do than to respond to Trump Jnr's son's tweet was very apt.

Trump Jnr has re-quoted a 6 month old blurb with respect to yesterdays incident. Stupid and disgusting POS.

Donald Trump Jr called 'a disgrace' for tweet goading London mayor Sadiq Khan
 
. . . We've now reached a level where everybody must be doing the same thing in the same way and meeting the same standards, no matter what. This of course is at best unrealistic.
Hi dbp,
Just as a little postscript to the discussion around education . . .

Here in the U.K. we've got around the problem of meeting the same standards very easily: by lowering them across the board, year on year for decades.

Educationally sub-normal pupils pass their GCSEs these days, and the average pupil gets at least a brace of 'A' grades. It's common for many pupils to get straight 'A's in all subjects. Successive governments then claim that their policies are working as X% of school kids are achieving the same basic standard of education. The results get ever better while standards decline. The consequence of this is that generation snowflake thinks it's unique, talented and clever which masks the true picture in the majority of cases. The fuse on this time bomb is now quite short and many of these kids are kids no more and, as they become adults, reality is starting to hit home.
Tim.
 
Sounds like you guys learned all the wrong things from the US.

Which reminds me of the old joke about the talentless schmuck of limited intelligence and with no skills who at least served as a bad example.
 
Hi dbp,
Just as a little postscript to the discussion around education . . .

Here in the U.K. we've got around the problem of meeting the same standards very easily: by lowering them across the board, year on year for decades.

Educationally sub-normal pupils pass their GCSEs these days, and the average pupil gets at least a brace of 'A' grades. It's common for many pupils to get straight 'A's in all subjects. Successive governments then claim that their policies are working as X% of school kids are achieving the same basic standard of education. The results get ever better while standards decline. The consequence of this is that generation snowflake thinks it's unique, talented and clever which masks the true picture in the majority of cases. The fuse on this time bomb is now quite short and many of these kids are kids no more and, as they become adults, reality is starting to hit home.
Tim.


That explains the last 30 years maybe.

How do you explain the previous 100+ years of decline then clever cloggs? ;)
 
Britain had nothing to be ashamed of during WWII.

Well I was thinking along the lines of industry and not military.

fwiw my perspective is that the unique set of circumstances that gave us an advantage ie essentially being an island, ruling the waves and colonies - being a pioneering adventurous nation, no longer exist.

We've lost the industrial competition and I fear we are embarking on the road to losing R&D and Finance too.

I could be wrong :rolleyes:
 
Well I was thinking along the lines of industry and not military.

fwiw my perspective is that the unique set of circumstances that gave us an advantage ie essentially being an island, ruling the waves and colonies - being a pioneering adventurous nation, no longer exist.

We've lost the industrial competition and I fear we are embarking on the road to losing R&D and Finance too.

I could be wrong :rolleyes:

Not necessarily wrong, but it is not uncommon to overlook the effect of losing such an extraordinary number of young men during WWI, particularly in France. Some say that it is that loss which brought about so many changes in the class system: those who would serve the old households didn't come back.

It would be difficult to separate industrial from military since the British had no choice but to gear everything toward the war effort. The US had its own sacrifices to make, but nothing like those in Western Europe.
 
That explains the last 30 years maybe.

How do you explain the previous 100+ years of decline then clever cloggs? ;)
Hi Atilla.
Yes, I'm specifically referring to the past 30 years or so. I'm no social historian, but in broad terms I'd say standards gradually rose from the back end of the 19th century right up until around the 1980s. When I sat my 'O' levels in the mid 70s, standards were high. The intellectually challenged (or whatever the PC term is) and the lazy left school without (m)any qualifications. The 'clever cloggs' went into white collar professions, while those that did poorly got blue collar jobs. There were a few in the latter category like me that didn't much fancy a life of manual labour and managed to side step the problem by going to art school. But that was in the late 70s when grants were dished out routinely: not so easy to pull off now.
Tim.
 
Hi Atilla.
Yes, I'm specifically referring to the past 30 years or so. I'm no social historian, but in broad terms I'd say standards gradually rose from the back end of the 19th century right up until around the 1980s. When I sat my 'O' levels in the mid 70s, standards were high. The intellectually challenged (or whatever the PC term is) and the lazy left school without (m)any qualifications. The 'clever cloggs' went into white collar professions, while those that did poorly got blue collar jobs. There were a few in the latter category like me that didn't much fancy a life of manual labour and managed to side step the problem by going to art school. But that was in the late 70s when grants were dished out routinely: not so easy to pull off now.
Tim.

Some good points there Tim. Standards did indeed rise from 1870 onwards, date of the Education Act which made education for children compulsory – instead of going up chimneys and assisting their parents in homeworking. The main reason for the Act was because UK was falling behind in international competitiveness due to the poor quality of education of its workforce (ring any bells today?) – And not out of political concern for the welfare of the working classes.

As for educational standards – these have fallen through introduction of wider but more shallow study resulting in lots of relatively worthless certificates. It does of course have the social benefit of enabling many more kids to have a qualification – and that is important in not making the less academically bright kids feel they have been relegated to the junk heap. The important thing is for all kids to have an appropriate education – we haven't yet got this right but I think we are making progress. The most important objective of course, is to enable the politicians to crow about raising standards:rolleyes:

When I was doing A-levels, most of us did 3 whilst the super brain boxes tackled 4 and very few of us got top grades in all subjects. Whereas now, it's not uncommon to attain top grades in 10 A-levels – call me old-fashioned but even allowing for the improvement in teaching standards (which has undoubtedly happened) the brainpower of our kids hasn't improved that much! So could it be that standards have indeed fallen?

A couple of years ago I was looking through an old book of GCE O level physics papers and recognised one question from the past – very nostalgic but thought no more about it. Unexpectedly, a few days later I was looking through some current A-level questions and blow me down, there was the old O-level question now masquerading at A level. Draw your own conclusions.

It's probably not as bad as it sounds because the standards are all relative and employers aren't stupid – they know which universities/subjects/GCSEs are worthwhile. And of course, a five-minute conversation with most prospective employees tells you all you need to know in addition. But of course, we do need to raise our game in mathematics/science/technicals compared to the international competition.
 
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Some good points there Tim. Standards did indeed rise from 1870 onwards, date of the Education Act which made education for children compulsory – instead of going up chimneys and assisting their parents in homeworking. The main reason for the Act was because UK was falling behind in international competitiveness due to the poor quality of education of its workforce (ring any bells today?) – And not out of political concern for the welfare of the working classes.

As for educational standards – these have fallen through introduction of wider but more shallow study resulting in lots of relatively worthless certificates. It does of course have the social benefit of enabling many more kids to have a qualification – and that is important in not making the less academically bright kids feel they have been relegated to the junk heap. The important thing is for all kids to have an appropriate education – we haven't yet got this right but I think we are making progress. The most important objective of course, is to enable the politicians to crow about raising standards:rolleyes:

When I was doing A-levels, most of us did 3 whilst the super brain boxes tackled 4 and very few of us got top grades in all subjects. Whereas now, it's not uncommon to attain top grades in 10 A-levels – call me old-fashioned but even allowing for the improvement in teaching standards (which has undoubtedly happened) the brainpower of our kids hasn't improved that much! So could it be that standards have indeed fallen?

A couple of years ago I was looking through an old book of GCE O level physics papers and recognised one question from the past – very nostalgic but thought no more about it. Unexpectedly, a few days later I was looking through some current A-level questions and blow me down, there was the old O-level question now masquerading at A level. Draw your own conclusions.

It's probably not as bad as it sounds because the standards are all relative and employers aren't stupid – they know which universities/subjects/GCSEs are worthwhile. And of course, a five-minute conversation with most prospective employees tells you all you need to know in addition. But of course, we do need to raise our game in mathematics/science/technicals compared to the international competition.


Agree with what you have outlined here, spot on.

To add further based on my personal studies, referring back to the class system which is still prevalent with us today has much to do with falling standards and abilities.

UK has had a shortage of engineers compared to Germany and Japan. This discrepancy is still with us today. I have written about this before; the study of latin, the arts and music was popular and glorified by the elite. Anyone who worked using their hands and got them dirty were working class.

Those who studied the arts and the classics were the upper crust white collar clean cut well to do gentlemen.

German and Japanese had four to eight time as many engineers compared to UK.

These ratios could be changed if wages and salaries of engineers rose compared to those studying and employed in the soft arts. Sadly, if one looks at steel metal sheet workers salaries compared to how hard their work is, explains much in the way of why there are very few English labourers in these industries and those who do apply for such jobs are from Eastern European countries.

These issues go hand in hand to explaining British Leyland's experience and decline of their poor model designs, poor R&D research and reliability of the cars they produced. If one doesn't invest one can't deliver. Nothing to do with trade union disputes which came much later.

I suspect Trade Unions could have played a pivotal role if they were able to judge numeration packages awarding them to desired skills instead of poor management no doubt would have yielded better results. That stupid moo moo and the Conservatives obviously will tell you otherwise.

The days of the passionate individual inventor working in his shed, producing a world beating product is behind us. Barking about our past similarly whilst coming out of our mouths, may as well come out of our rear. No gas in tank. All talk and whaffle with no substance.

Trade with the rest of the World they say but the big question is trade what? What are we selling? Well if the pound falls further we'll be able to compete on price. That's a losing strategy imo.

So coming back to EDUCATION and what is the government doing now. Promoting exorbitant universities that deliver non functional theoretical students who are not much cop and spending money on grammar schools who produce a bit of the upper crust bodies who don't like to get their hands dirty.


Well spoken and presented young bodies selling and producing what exactly???


I would promote standard schools, raising standards and re-introduce apprenticeship and vocational studies with polytechnics and as John Major said go back to basics of producing real products and world beating top class inventions that simplify and benefit human kind.
 
Ever since the days of the Industrial Revolution this country has undervalued the importance of engineers and engineering. Even today, Chartered Engineers – who really do know about engineering – are hopelessly underpaid in comparison to the undoubtedly clever people in the city and business world. It just seems to be a hangover from the original days of grease monkeys – brilliant guys like George Stephenson faced difficulties due to their working class origins and broad North country accents. The UK has a natural talent for brilliant engineering. Until we put it on the correct footing we're going to continue to struggle in the face of the competition. Isn't this a case of where the "Northern Powerhouse" should be romping home?
 
Ever since the days of the Industrial Revolution this country has undervalued the importance of engineers and engineering. Even today, Chartered Engineers – who really do know about engineering – are hopelessly underpaid in comparison to the undoubtedly clever people in the city and business world. It just seems to be a hangover from the original days of grease monkeys – brilliant guys like George Stephenson faced difficulties due to their working class origins and broad North country accents. The UK has a natural talent for brilliant engineering. Until we put it on the correct footing we're going to continue to struggle in the face of the competition. Isn't this a case of where the "Northern Powerhouse" should be romping home?

Exactly Super Mini and can see you have the same appreciation of our economic history and more importantly what we'll have to do to get there.

As they say great minds think alike and fools seldom differ (y)


What bugs me is the walk Theresa May is walking doesn't match the words coming out of her mouth. Should we be concerned? :rolleyes:
 
What bugs me is the walk Theresa May is walking doesn't match the words coming out of her mouth. Should we be concerned? :rolleyes:

That's probably not a lot different from any previous PM – I've never envied politicians because they have the difficult job of saying what they want to do, but as in most things in life (including trading!) It's not quite so easy when you come to do it.

On the education side, you will not be pleased to hear that I'm an enthusiast of grammar schools – not because they will solve all problems, but because I see them as part of the solution whereby we nurture the very finest academic brainpower. They should be part of the solution and not part of the problem (as they say in the political chattering classes!). It's a great shame that previously some very fine Polys were turned into second-rate universities and in doing so lost some very great opportunities for particular non-academic routes.

I'm keeping an open mind on Theresa May – she looks and sounds like a PM which is more than can be said for the competition. At the moment she seems to be shaping up in political terms a bit like a Tony Blair government – slightly right of centre. Probably the most sensible option in today's climate. And if Tony Blair hadn't believed that God wanted him to start the odd war here and there, he might well have in future gone down in history in a very different way to what I think he will do.

The immediate outcome of Brexit will almost certainly decide the future of Theresa May. It would be very useful to have a decent crystal ball :LOL:
 
That's probably not a lot different from any previous PM – I've never envied politicians because they have the difficult job of saying what they want to do, but as in most things in life (including trading!) It's not quite so easy when you come to do it.

On the education side, you will not be pleased to hear that I'm an enthusiast of grammar schools – not because they will solve all problems, but because I see them as part of the solution whereby we nurture the very finest academic brainpower. They should be part of the solution and not part of the problem (as they say in the political chattering classes!). It's a great shame that previously some very fine Polys were turned into second-rate universities and in doing so lost some very great opportunities for particular non-academic routes.

I'm keeping an open mind on Theresa May – she looks and sounds like a PM which is more than can be said for the competition. At the moment she seems to be shaping up in political terms a bit like a Tony Blair government – slightly right of centre. Probably the most sensible option in today's climate. And if Tony Blair hadn't believed that God wanted him to start the odd war here and there, he might well have in future gone down in history in a very different way to what I think he will do.

The immediate outcome of Brexit will almost certainly decide the future of Theresa May. It would be very useful to have a decent crystal ball :LOL:

Fear not, I'm back !
 
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