Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

Have to disagree with you on that Tim! Lady Theresa has already offered this to the EU on condition that they offer reciprocal rights to Brits in the EU. For some reason the Germans wouldn't agree to this (was this during the phase when the feeling was that the UK must be punished for having the temerity to take their future into their own hands?). It's not a case of UK using people as bargaining chips – if anybody is doing that is the EU. I doubt if the PM would get many accolades for allowing EU nationals to remain here while Brits don't have reciprocal rights – I think it is a bit rich to blame UK government.

Theresa quite rightly wanted to get this out of the way before negotiations begin – and who could argue with that as being a decent principle? Anybody who's ever been involved in negotiations knows that when you give away a key principle with nothing in return you can end up looking pretty foolish. The blame for this wholly unsatisfactory state of affairs should be laid fairly and squarely at the door of the EU.

Can you provide evidence of this please?

EU standpoint is that they do not wish to start piece meal negotiations without article 50 being invoked. That would include not discussing citizenship.

UK also wanted to start terms of new negotiations simultaneously alongside exit negotiations.

The mind boggles about just how naive and ill prepared the Brexit camp was / is about the upcoming negotiations. Rogers told you so but would not be listened so the guy left.

Blame games going to get awfully ugly!!!

 

[sminicooper]

Can you provide evidence of this please?

EU standpoint is that they do not wish to start piece meal negotiations without article 50 being invoked. That would include not discussing citizenship.

UK also wanted to start terms of new negotiations simultaneously alongside exit negotiations.

The mind boggles about just how naive and ill prepared the Brexit camp was / is about the upcoming negotiations. Rogers told you so but would not be listened so the guy left.

Blame games going to get awfully ugly!!!

The evidence is, that they haven't agreed to a perfectly reasonable proposal!

 

[petetrades]

WIth all this discussion of the minor details of personalities and proposals regarding Brexit readers can't see the forest through the trees and it's easy to forget the fact that the EU is a globalist new world order operation designed to take resources and rights away from Westerners and that's why so many voters were in favor of its deconstruction.

 

[sminicooper]

WIth all this discussion of the minor details of personalities and proposals regarding Brexit readers can't see the forest through the trees and it's easy to forget the fact that the EU is a globalist new world order operation designed to take resources and rights away from Westerners and that's why so many voters were in favor of its deconstruction.

Not for much longer, I suspect.

 

[Splitlink]

The evidence is, that they haven't agreed to a perfectly reasonable proposal!

"A perfectly reasonable proposal?"

If UK does not leave EU, then the immigration problem does not arise.

If UK leaves the EU, then the immigration position must be dealt with.

Therefore, the question is dependent on the signing of Art. 50

You do not appear to want to understand that there are two sides to every argument.

The Brits want nothing better than to separate immigration from trading since both are major reasons for Brexit. I cannot see how they can do that, since they agreed to these EU proposals decades ago, as one of the members.

This is part of Brussel's bargaining power. Accept it, or not,

Angela Merkel, IMO, made a serious mistake in saying that all those people could enter Germany to work. She has had to backtrack and does not know how to go about it because it is not simply a matter of closing borders. Other member countries do not want to have to deal with, what they consider to be, a German problem.

That is why it is going through Brussels and why they are being so hard-nosed about it. They do not intend to treat immigration as a separate problem.

 

[dbphoenix]

Can you provide evidence of this please?

EU standpoint is that they do not wish to start piece meal negotiations without article 50 being invoked. That would include not discussing citizenship.

UK also wanted to start terms of new negotiations simultaneously alongside exit negotiations.

The mind boggles about just how naive and ill prepared the Brexit camp was / is about the upcoming negotiations. Rogers told you so but would not be listened so the guy left.

Blame games going to get awfully ugly!!!

Seems like a good example of unanticipated consequences. And of wanting to have one's cake and eat it too. And possibly of buyer's remorse (or Brexiter's remorse?).

The reactions of citizens to conservatives as this unfolds will be interesting to watch (the parallels between the UK and the US these days make reality TV look tame).

 

[sminicooper]

"A perfectly reasonable proposal?"

If UK does not leave EU, then the immigration problem does not arise.

If UK leaves the EU, then the immigration position must be dealt with.

Therefore, the question is dependent on the signing of Art. 50

You do not appear to want to understand that there are two sides to every argument.

The Brits want nothing better than to separate immigration from trading since both are major reasons for Brexit. I cannot see how they can do that, since they agreed to these EU proposals decades ago, as one of the members.

This is part of Brussel's bargaining power. Accept it, or not,

Angela Merkel, IMO, made a serious mistake in saying that all those people could enter Germany to work. She has had to backtrack and does not know how to go about it because it is not simply a matter of closing borders. Other member countries do not want to have to deal with, what they consider to be, a German problem.

That is why it is going through Brussels and why they are being so hard-nosed about it. They do not intend to treat immigration as a separate problem.

It certainly isn't a problem to deal with immigration and trade simultaneously after article 50 has been triggered – and that's what it looks like is going to happen. Any reasonable person, regardless of their Brexit position, must surely realise that reciprocal residency arrangements is the civilised answer to existing legal citizens? So why does it need to be delayed? Is this just an example of EU obfuscation and awkwardness?

So – we'll end up doing it the EU way and the only people that suffer stress and strain and uncertainty in the meantime will be the citizens that the EU is supposed to be looking after. What a joke!

 

[petetrades]

https://redice.tv/news/paris-tourists-warned-to-stay-away-as-nonwhite-mobs-attack

Paris: Tourists Warned to Stay Away as Nonwhite Mobs Attack

The Korean embassy in Paris has issued an official warning to its nationals to stay away from the suburb of St. Denis after a busload of Korean nationals were attacked, robbed, and assaulted by an African/Arab mob, while five large areas of France’s capital city have been turned into “no-go zones” by the ongoing nonwhite violence in France.

A spokesman for Seoul’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said: “These South Korean tourists had taken a bus after a visit to the Eiffel Tower and were on their way to Saint-Denis, the location of their hotel.

“Individuals suddenly boarded the coach and snatched the tourists’ Eurostar tickets, which were being kept by the tour guide, whose passport was also taken.”

 

[Atilla]

It certainly isn't a problem to deal with immigration and trade simultaneously after article 50 has been triggered – and that's what it looks like is going to happen. Any reasonable person, regardless of their Brexit position, must surely realise that reciprocal residency arrangements is the civilised answer to existing legal citizens? So why does it need to be delayed? Is this just an example of EU obfuscation and awkwardness?

So – we'll end up doing it the EU way and the only people that suffer stress and strain and uncertainty in the meantime will be the citizens that the EU is supposed to be looking after. What a joke!

If I recall reciprocal residency point was brought up by UK not the EU.

Free movement of EU labour and citizens is a reciprocal agreement known as the Four Freedoms.

European labour does not move to the UK to feed off benefits and NHS. In fact benefits and health service superior in many other EU countries.

This observation is more relevant to migrants from poorer common wealth countries who bring elderly family members across.

It's all hotch potch. Mixem all together whether they are students, migrants or relatives and tell a story to the British people to get your political end away.

Starve NHS and public transport of resources, mismanage utilities ignore aging baby boomers, falling birth rates and rising tax burden and just point the finger at the EU after the banking crises and say it's the migrants fault.

Reason why we are here today is because this wasn't our choice decision, but more because we have signed our sovereignty away and those peskey Europeans have messed us up, tripped us over. All their bloody fault.


Yep makes perfect sense. It's no joke. Let's leave and have done with it.


I'm sure it'll come to pass. Don't worry! Be happy so the song goes.

 

[Splitlink]

It is not being delayed by much and Brussels wants it that way. As far as Europeans are concerned, UK has delayed the signing of Art. 50 too long, anyway. EU has its own agenda and it does not want Brexit in the air until the Brits decide to present it. They have other problems.

Who is to say that, once the immigrant problem is dealt with. that UK won't delay the rest until they are good and ready.? When could that be? I have heard it expressed by many posters, on this thread, that Brussels can wait until the UK is good and ready.

 

[Atilla]

It's not just free movement of persons either.

UK want's to pick and choose over taxation ie Financial Transaction Tax too.

On the contrary Financial Institution should damn well pay for their greed and mismanagement.

Tax payers have bailed them out.


Four freedoms make perfect sense. If a Canadian bank wants to locate in Europe then it should be allowed to move it's personnel as it likes or hire locally. If a European bank locates in Canada, likewise.

Driving licenses should be the same in all countries as well as standards, regulations and laws.

Harmony of life really.


To think, say or imagine anything otherwise now that everyone is so used to it and standards are super we should identify and address our real problems instead of playing into UKIP and Eurosceptics, what will become disastrous policies for the UK for good many decades with little or no cost saving but on the contrary a reduction in living standards and rises in inflation.

 

[sminicooper]

All good points from Split and Attila: as many people have said – it's just like any divorce with good and bad on both sides, lots of grumpiness and some kind of decision in the end which both parties learn to live with. And in 10 years time when both sides have got new lives and forgotten their grudges everybody will be a lot happier. As I said – just like the average divorce!

 

[petetrades]

All good points from Split and Attila: as many people have said – it's just like any divorce with good and bad on both sides, lots of grumpiness and some kind of decision in the end which both parties learn to live with. And in 10 years time when both sides have got new lives and forgotten their grudges everybody will be a lot happier. As I said – just like the average divorce!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...death-substance-abuse-suicide-depression.html

Why divorce is bad for a man's health: Separation increases the risk of early death, substance abuse, suicide and depression

The impact of divorce on men's health 'needs urgent investigation'
Divorced men are more likely to have heart disease, high blood pressure and strokes than married ones - are also 39% more likely to commit suicide
They are more likely to take part in risky activities which also increases their mortality rate

 

[counter_violent]

It is not being delayed by much and Brussels wants it that way. As far as Europeans are concerned, UK has delayed the signing of Art. 50 too long, anyway. EU has its own agenda and it does not want Brexit in the air until the Brits decide to present it. They have other problems.

Who is to say that, once the immigrant problem is dealt with. that UK won't delay the rest until they are good and ready.? When could that be? I have heard it expressed by many posters, on this thread, that Brussels can wait until the UK is good and ready.

Oh they have problems alright and the EU does not have the luxury of time on it's side. Neither does it have a strong bargaining position with the UK, as you will all find out in due course.

Mainstream media is not reporting on riots in France....I wonder why ! Nothing to do with the presidential election I don't suppose.

 

[sminicooper]

Trading under WTO rules

Interesting article here http://brexitcentral.com/government-business-prepare-advantages-trading-wto-rules/

Those of you who are committed Remainers may want to avert your gaze before clicking.

 

[counter_violent]

Interesting article here http://brexitcentral.com/government-business-prepare-advantages-trading-wto-rules/

Those of you who are committed Remainers may want to avert your gaze before clicking.

May has already made it clear to the EU. Play a fair sensible game or the gloves are off. The last thing the UK will do is get involved in complicated, protracted, penal negotiations wasting valuable time into the bargain. I expect if the EU starts down that road, May will quite rightly give them a swift ultimatum.
Deal or no deal !
There's just zero upside for the EU and the UK cannot afford to waste time. Time is money and lost opportunity in this fast paced revolution.

 

[Atilla]

Calm down dears and put your handbags down, no one wants Great Britain to leave the EU.

Just pick a comfy new spot for your selves in this wonderful most colourful map.

EU is very accommodating you know... and we have much experience in negotiating and make sure only our youngest negotiators will receive you at the start :cheesy:

Don't see the new CETA deal on that map but no reason why UK can't have one too called UKETA! Has a nice ring to it no?

 

[sminicooper]

Calm down dears and put your handbags down, no one wants Great Britain to leave the EU.

Just pick a comfy new spot for your selves in this wonderful most colourful map.

EU is very accommodating you know... and we have much experience in negotiating and make sure only our youngest negotiators will receive you at the start :cheesy:

Don't see the new CETA deal on that map but no reason why UK can't have one too called UKETA! Has a nice ring to it no?

It's always important to appreciate the basic simplicity of the EU!

 

[counter_violent]

Ever wondered why the voting public have arrived at their current anti politics position. They would rather vote for any old monkey than for a corrupt politician like this. The western establishment has brought all their troubles upon themselves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39125941

Establishment closing ranks, being put under more pressure. They really do want him out of this race, leaving the way clearer for Macron.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39146848

 

[Atilla]

Establishment closing ranks, being put under more pressure. They really do want him out of this race, leaving the way clearer for Macron.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39146848

I thought you were for locking up these career politicians defrauding the state.

1m Euros is a lot of money for doing nothing. It was available so he took it.

There were no control or checks on use and he was entitled. No audits or verification.

Free Rider => Free Money


People should check their own integrity.

Integrity is not cheap, very expensive indeed as it has no price :!: