Bang on the money.
Master the emotions and you can master trading, but as humans this is not something we are very good at. Show me someone that has never got mad, upset, or angry within the past couple of years and they might just make a very good trader.
Hi Imran,if I say out of 10 trades,you lose 9 but win 1,I'm sure you'll jump out of your wits. But a lot of professionals have this ratio and still have a strong P/L. The scenario is,they cut their loses short-losing only $2 max for the 9 trades,but letting their profits run(lets say $100-$200) just for that 1 winning trade. It is about perspective.Bottomline,Money Management.... A friend of mine called me one time to tell me "profited" $35.As a friend,I had to congratulate him of course.,but at the back of my mind was saying" why are you happy when your last 8 trades were losers of more than $100 each? Last I heard,he took a break from trading.
Get as many books as you can.
Get as many competent trading friends to learn.
You're a retail trader,so follow a trend,don't try to predict.
Cheers! =)
Get as many books as you can.
Get as many competent trading friends to learn.
You're a retail trader,so follow a trend,don't try to predict.
Cheers! =)
Chorlton
Established member
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Regarding Books, IMO try to limit the number you get on one particular subject. The Key is "Quality" and not "Quantity" !!!
When I first started out, I used to buy every new book which appeared on my local BookShop shelves. After many hours of reading (and spending money on those books) I came to slowly realise that a lot of Authors simple regurgitate the same old material albeit in their own style. In hindsight, my money would have been better spent on trading neccessities such as Brokarage Costs, Data Costs, etc, etc.
A quick search on here will help you locate some of those "key" books. A couple of good ones on Technical Analysis / Fundamentals (depending on what approach you want to take) coupled with a good grounding in Money Management will definately be a good start.
All IMO,
Good Luck,
Chorlton
anandsancheti
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well i read all the comments. the thing is that there are various aspects to trading, mental physical, emotional, etc.
there could be more, but one thing i have figured out is about these 90% of people failing is that either they are undercapitalised like me or they suffer drawdowns that wipe them out. 2 ways of failing with trading, and i guess the most popular ways as well.
Now systems dont work and there is no holy grail.
I dont have lots of capital else would be doing my business than trading, thus the only thing i can do is try and avoid a wipeout drawdown. thus as long as i stay in the markets, and as 90% of the people continue to lose money which is now with the 10% who survived. so as the pot grows bigger there is more money to be had, but one needs survival.
thus i chose a system where drawdowns are in my favour and never against me, thus if a trader is getting thrown out of the market because he is suffering a drawdown, that profit is being made by me. if drawdowns are supposed to be big enough to wipe traders out then my profits should be big as well. well with so many suffering drawdowns and me being safe from that means, i can continue to make money and get myself adequately capitalised.
thus surviving.
JUST FOCUS ON SURVIVAL & NOT MONEY, because with survival money is bound to come.
there could be more, but one thing i have figured out is about these 90% of people failing is that either they are undercapitalised like me or they suffer drawdowns that wipe them out. 2 ways of failing with trading, and i guess the most popular ways as well.
Now systems dont work and there is no holy grail.
I dont have lots of capital else would be doing my business than trading, thus the only thing i can do is try and avoid a wipeout drawdown. thus as long as i stay in the markets, and as 90% of the people continue to lose money which is now with the 10% who survived. so as the pot grows bigger there is more money to be had, but one needs survival.
thus i chose a system where drawdowns are in my favour and never against me, thus if a trader is getting thrown out of the market because he is suffering a drawdown, that profit is being made by me. if drawdowns are supposed to be big enough to wipe traders out then my profits should be big as well. well with so many suffering drawdowns and me being safe from that means, i can continue to make money and get myself adequately capitalised.
thus surviving.
JUST FOCUS ON SURVIVAL & NOT MONEY, because with survival money is bound to come.
cu20052003
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Trading is MUCH worse than GAMBLING
Hi to ALL ( To add my few pence worth ........ )
Recall the 200 fallen angels? Please read the Torah or the Holy Bible if you want to carry on reading this! It was them - due to them that this SIN called tertiary comercialisation came about. They brought with them knowledge of promiscuity, mining, metalworks, cosmetics/ jewellery ( so that Humans can mask their own inner ugliness and promote false sense of richness and thereafter the EVIL pursuit of luxury), weaponry - leading to pillaging and WAR, scapegoat-making ( read about AZAZEL ) and others such as their progeny called the MEN of RENOWN ( Giants )! Gambling and Trading is the direct result of these that are supposedly brought about by these 'Wealth creating' knowledge and ventures or undertakings.
Of course, the gambling and many others were considered secondary even as compared to this SIN of financial trading which is worse being in the category of Tertiary based SIN. KNOWLEDGE itself is SIN in a great number of ways ( eg, ADAM after having the knowledge from Eve of the pleasure of SEX, had SEX WITH EVE causes them to be casted out of EDEN ) as opposed to innocence and naivety ( especially so during the SATYA YUGA - please read texts regarding Hinduism ). As the TAO saying goes, '' THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT of LAW IF EVERYONE IS SAINTLY AT HEART. ''
As the Human SOCIETY is build based upon primary resources/ services and secondary services/ products so is MODERN DEVELOPED/ DEVELOPING SOCIETY built based on TERTIARY services/ products ( like insurance, accounting, banking/ financial services or instruments like stocks and commodities trading, all forms of institutionalised organisations - even employment agencies and advertisement/ plus junk food .......... etc! That which came from SIN is ALSO SINFUL.
As far as History goes, during every major crash ( Wall Street ..... etc ) you would see people suffer ( and examples are many - people would jump down buildings or get themselves killed by swallowing pills ..... etc ). As far as it is concerned, the MARKET is liken a HOLLOW SHELL full of numbers ( RSI/ EMA ), pictures ( charts ) and alphabets ( eg, FTSE, DOW JOWS - for indices and BT - share abbreviations ). There are soooooo many many many types to capture and beguile the individual SOULS! That is itself liken to THE MATRIX.
When each person becomes addicted to it - it is like those in THE MATRIX TRILOGY wanting to have a pact with THE SYSTEM and get a good and EASY LIFE by betraying the CAUSE of NEO, TRINITY and MORPHEUS, plus others to overthrow THE MACHINES.
However, lets get back on to the original track here. To survive in Trading, one requires the necessary info ( which often he/ she has to find out for himself/ herself ). More often than not, there would be requirements of many calculations and effort in the choice of methodologies ( using individuals like RSI/ EMA/ MACD or others ....... etc ) Some would even go to the extend of drawing candle sticks himself/ herself and the lines necessary to get a predict of the future TREND!
In GAMBLING, all that is required is PROBABILITY which is ALSO ALMOST AS USEFUL AS WELL in TRADING. But, even with the aid of Probability or Study of Possibility there is no guarantee in winning ( as in the case of ONLINE GAMBLING DENS ) because the software is made to let the CASINO or HOUSE having a great edge as time pass! Even the Lottery is easier to Win compared to this form of GAMBLING!
For Trading, it is by no means easy. You cannot apply the Rules of Poker ( for eg. ) to the Rules when you want to Trade! The necessary effort required definitely is different - that is why you have people carrying out half to as much as 2 years of paper trading or for systems, HARD and THOROUGH Backtesting! And even then. you have these same group of people having stress and fear while in the course of trading. As Yoda puts it, '' Fear creates Anger. Anger creates Suffering. Suffering leads to Darkness. ''
We do not have hard core gamblers being stressed! Stress leads to eventual heart attacks or even stroke ( and other HUMAN BODY SYSTEM FAILURES )! For a gambler, as long as he or she has a few good bets, he/ she can be VERY HAPPY for the day or might in a Casino, maybe tipping handsomely the Casino wait or recept! Even buying a good lunch or dinner for the Family! It brings in some small ways, happiness in small proportion. A trader, on the other hand do not do this as he/ she feels that it is through hard work that he/ she achieves the success. This type of hard work is basically NO WORK, like as in the case of GAMBLING, unlike tangible work like farming.
As the saying goes, for 100 peasants is required to work to support a chieftain. For a nobleman/ woman, 50 chieftains. For a King, there requires 30 nobles at least. So doth the traders, there is a requirement of the massive numbers ( of farms and mines - with it goes the cheap, but arduous labour ) and oil rigs ( cause of pollution and CO2 emissions - global warming and eventual destruction of habitats ). One might say this is now a paperless trading world - not true 'cos I still accept cheques and paper money!
For a day trader, it is different, the fear and stress when one is locked in trading and especially when the MARKET trend is going against the forecast of his/ her trading system, it is definitely not a good feeling ( it is in fact suffering )! Not many people can handle this! With the stress, fear and anger, it sometimes further causes strain in relationships with the family or even friends. Of course, there is the thing called GREED as well - which will cause BREACH of TRUST and also sours partnerships ( and other forms of outside-kinship relationships ) evetually causing a GREAT DENT in one's reputation. If for unfortunate reasons, that person's reputation is already not good, then he/ she is likely to be reduced to the level of a scumbag! Please do not forget the fact that A PERSON's REPUTATION is the LAST FORM of LIFELINE in a community.
Therefore, it it needless to say that disciplining One's actions during or outside of Trading is VERY VERY NECESSARY! THEREFORE, trading is not as easy as just adopting a trading methodology or buying/ obtaining a system as many rookies/ newbies would have done. It is DEFINITELY NOT JUST MERE SPECULATION. In itself, it is a COMPLETE Science based on MAth ( RSI/ MA/ MACD - using price and figures ) and PHYSICS ( for example Fibo and Waves ) and also psychology ( discovering human behavioural patterns in trading ) leading to fundamental analysis. FA, TA, EA ( Environmental analysis, RAA ( resource availabilty analysis ), also most importantly its brother, CFRAA ( counter fraudulent resource availability analysis ), OMIFA( outside market influence factors analysis - the analysis of spikes or in electronic terms glitches or noise in a signal graph ) to name a few influence like war elsewhere on Earth other than the region in trade and a few others like EOIA ( Extra Ordinary Influence Analysis ) to name a few factors like outside Earth influences ( eg. breaking up of the Moon if it CAN HAPPEN ).
All the above mentioned analysis or rather the many levels of analysis ( by the way, the study forms the basis of my to-be automated software trading system ) let a Trader/ Trading Counter User see the World in a different light ( whether it being good or bad depends on each individual) and bring in a True sense of Perception!
But can there be an EDEN found in trading? Or was it just Professionalism in this area of churning income that One can find a niche? The answer is yet to be found.
S K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi there
Be one with GOD, so that HE may appoint a deliver for your Soul-HariHaraBramKalki(S K)
Hi to ALL ( To add my few pence worth ........ )
Recall the 200 fallen angels? Please read the Torah or the Holy Bible if you want to carry on reading this! It was them - due to them that this SIN called tertiary comercialisation came about. They brought with them knowledge of promiscuity, mining, metalworks, cosmetics/ jewellery ( so that Humans can mask their own inner ugliness and promote false sense of richness and thereafter the EVIL pursuit of luxury), weaponry - leading to pillaging and WAR, scapegoat-making ( read about AZAZEL ) and others such as their progeny called the MEN of RENOWN ( Giants )! Gambling and Trading is the direct result of these that are supposedly brought about by these 'Wealth creating' knowledge and ventures or undertakings.
Of course, the gambling and many others were considered secondary even as compared to this SIN of financial trading which is worse being in the category of Tertiary based SIN. KNOWLEDGE itself is SIN in a great number of ways ( eg, ADAM after having the knowledge from Eve of the pleasure of SEX, had SEX WITH EVE causes them to be casted out of EDEN ) as opposed to innocence and naivety ( especially so during the SATYA YUGA - please read texts regarding Hinduism ). As the TAO saying goes, '' THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT of LAW IF EVERYONE IS SAINTLY AT HEART. ''
As the Human SOCIETY is build based upon primary resources/ services and secondary services/ products so is MODERN DEVELOPED/ DEVELOPING SOCIETY built based on TERTIARY services/ products ( like insurance, accounting, banking/ financial services or instruments like stocks and commodities trading, all forms of institutionalised organisations - even employment agencies and advertisement/ plus junk food .......... etc! That which came from SIN is ALSO SINFUL.
As far as History goes, during every major crash ( Wall Street ..... etc ) you would see people suffer ( and examples are many - people would jump down buildings or get themselves killed by swallowing pills ..... etc ). As far as it is concerned, the MARKET is liken a HOLLOW SHELL full of numbers ( RSI/ EMA ), pictures ( charts ) and alphabets ( eg, FTSE, DOW JOWS - for indices and BT - share abbreviations ). There are soooooo many many many types to capture and beguile the individual SOULS! That is itself liken to THE MATRIX.
When each person becomes addicted to it - it is like those in THE MATRIX TRILOGY wanting to have a pact with THE SYSTEM and get a good and EASY LIFE by betraying the CAUSE of NEO, TRINITY and MORPHEUS, plus others to overthrow THE MACHINES.
However, lets get back on to the original track here. To survive in Trading, one requires the necessary info ( which often he/ she has to find out for himself/ herself ). More often than not, there would be requirements of many calculations and effort in the choice of methodologies ( using individuals like RSI/ EMA/ MACD or others ....... etc ) Some would even go to the extend of drawing candle sticks himself/ herself and the lines necessary to get a predict of the future TREND!
In GAMBLING, all that is required is PROBABILITY which is ALSO ALMOST AS USEFUL AS WELL in TRADING. But, even with the aid of Probability or Study of Possibility there is no guarantee in winning ( as in the case of ONLINE GAMBLING DENS ) because the software is made to let the CASINO or HOUSE having a great edge as time pass! Even the Lottery is easier to Win compared to this form of GAMBLING!
For Trading, it is by no means easy. You cannot apply the Rules of Poker ( for eg. ) to the Rules when you want to Trade! The necessary effort required definitely is different - that is why you have people carrying out half to as much as 2 years of paper trading or for systems, HARD and THOROUGH Backtesting! And even then. you have these same group of people having stress and fear while in the course of trading. As Yoda puts it, '' Fear creates Anger. Anger creates Suffering. Suffering leads to Darkness. ''
We do not have hard core gamblers being stressed! Stress leads to eventual heart attacks or even stroke ( and other HUMAN BODY SYSTEM FAILURES )! For a gambler, as long as he or she has a few good bets, he/ she can be VERY HAPPY for the day or might in a Casino, maybe tipping handsomely the Casino wait or recept! Even buying a good lunch or dinner for the Family! It brings in some small ways, happiness in small proportion. A trader, on the other hand do not do this as he/ she feels that it is through hard work that he/ she achieves the success. This type of hard work is basically NO WORK, like as in the case of GAMBLING, unlike tangible work like farming.
As the saying goes, for 100 peasants is required to work to support a chieftain. For a nobleman/ woman, 50 chieftains. For a King, there requires 30 nobles at least. So doth the traders, there is a requirement of the massive numbers ( of farms and mines - with it goes the cheap, but arduous labour ) and oil rigs ( cause of pollution and CO2 emissions - global warming and eventual destruction of habitats ). One might say this is now a paperless trading world - not true 'cos I still accept cheques and paper money!
For a day trader, it is different, the fear and stress when one is locked in trading and especially when the MARKET trend is going against the forecast of his/ her trading system, it is definitely not a good feeling ( it is in fact suffering )! Not many people can handle this! With the stress, fear and anger, it sometimes further causes strain in relationships with the family or even friends. Of course, there is the thing called GREED as well - which will cause BREACH of TRUST and also sours partnerships ( and other forms of outside-kinship relationships ) evetually causing a GREAT DENT in one's reputation. If for unfortunate reasons, that person's reputation is already not good, then he/ she is likely to be reduced to the level of a scumbag! Please do not forget the fact that A PERSON's REPUTATION is the LAST FORM of LIFELINE in a community.
Therefore, it it needless to say that disciplining One's actions during or outside of Trading is VERY VERY NECESSARY! THEREFORE, trading is not as easy as just adopting a trading methodology or buying/ obtaining a system as many rookies/ newbies would have done. It is DEFINITELY NOT JUST MERE SPECULATION. In itself, it is a COMPLETE Science based on MAth ( RSI/ MA/ MACD - using price and figures ) and PHYSICS ( for example Fibo and Waves ) and also psychology ( discovering human behavioural patterns in trading ) leading to fundamental analysis. FA, TA, EA ( Environmental analysis, RAA ( resource availabilty analysis ), also most importantly its brother, CFRAA ( counter fraudulent resource availability analysis ), OMIFA( outside market influence factors analysis - the analysis of spikes or in electronic terms glitches or noise in a signal graph ) to name a few influence like war elsewhere on Earth other than the region in trade and a few others like EOIA ( Extra Ordinary Influence Analysis ) to name a few factors like outside Earth influences ( eg. breaking up of the Moon if it CAN HAPPEN ).
All the above mentioned analysis or rather the many levels of analysis ( by the way, the study forms the basis of my to-be automated software trading system ) let a Trader/ Trading Counter User see the World in a different light ( whether it being good or bad depends on each individual) and bring in a True sense of Perception!
But can there be an EDEN found in trading? Or was it just Professionalism in this area of churning income that One can find a niche? The answer is yet to be found.
S K
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi there
Be one with GOD, so that HE may appoint a deliver for your Soul-HariHaraBramKalki(S K)
cu20052003...wow. Frankly I read only the first para. What does tertiary comercialisation mean?
So far I have ONLY come across negative comments about TRADING, discouraging forums...and as a matter of fact, that has made me even more DETERMINED to go for it. Hopefully, I will be trading by the end of the month...only and only after that will I read the full reply of cu20052003.
So far I have ONLY come across negative comments about TRADING, discouraging forums...and as a matter of fact, that has made me even more DETERMINED to go for it. Hopefully, I will be trading by the end of the month...only and only after that will I read the full reply of cu20052003.
Windowsill
Well-known member
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cu20052003...wow. Frankly I read only the first para. What does tertiary comercialisation mean?
So you failed to read the whole thing, and then failed to understand the meaning! :clap: Its all perception ...thats very important to understand, i would think.
Even the 10% failed at first, unless they cheated.
For sure they did fail, but they where cautious in that time, to stay in game.
With the time they learned the lessons and developed their own system to trade.
In my opinion you are maybe on half way at this point.
Now the discipline part comes. Are you able to become a slave of your own system?
If not youre in trouble.
Your all wrong , the reason why most traders fail ( don't know if it's 90% but it's gonna be quite high) is apart from perhaps long term buy and hold as an investment , trading is a zero sum game , by that less money comes back to traders as a whole, than goes in , IF ALL TRADERS DID ALL THE THINGS MENTIONED IN PREVIOUSE ANSWERS AND BECAME FANTASTIC TRADERS , MOST WOULD STILL LOSE , BECUASE WE'RE TRADING AGAINST EACH OTHER AND PRODUCING LESS PROFITS THAN ARE PUT IN TO MARKETS AS A WHOLE . the ratio of people winning to losing may vary from time to time or market to market , but a few will make nearly all the money , being more heavily represented in the markets than thier numbers would merit becuase previouse success tends to give them access to greater trading capitol . Most lose through simple mathematics , becuase of commissions less money comes out than goes in, and as winning traders have most money , they need lots of losers ( often smaller traders in terms of maney) to feed these profits .If you'd ask why an individual trader tends not to be in the winning 10%, despite the obviouse simple 1 in 10 chance , then thats a more complicated question , but remember there's a good chance 9 out of 10 of these replies are from traders who arn't profitable.
gamma
Experienced member
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Lets get something right here
Forex is not about simply trading against each other.that is only one aspect of the market.
If you study the options and derivatives market you will see that setting a price for a export or import commodity before production at a effective price to make it profitable has a big impact on the market.Companies like Toyota,Ibm, and others buy options long before they import their raw materials and export their finished goods this is done to make sure they are no massive differences in cost of production and price for finished article.This ensures a smooth operation by having set costs.And very large amounts are involved here.Its control of project from start to finish without the worry of costs changing.
So this is not a sum zero game where we are trading against each other in a dog eat dog fight.
Last edited:
i didn't realise trading was so easy , so all i have to do to "ensure a profit" is to trade fx , does anyone else know this? personally i suspect they were merely trying to mitigate risk of adverse currency movements , but as trading fx now "ensures profits" we can all give up the day job .
cu20052003
Member
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Hi Imran - Allah's messenger cannot be wrong
Hi again, Imran!
Recall that as a muslim, one cannot earn interest ( as it is considered Haram! )? You must know that trading for the muslims as liken to earning interest, except for those who are paid salaries ( as traders for a company ).
While it is a fact that, 90 to 95 % of the traders lost their money, during a War or Market Crash, it is those who had placed their money who would lose everything!! Why? 'Cos nobody would be ablr yo guarantee anything - not the banks, not the govenments and not the UN! Except those who control the supply of resources like food, fuel and energy! But, with the necessary security like weapons to protect their INVESTMENT.
As you know, even money as data ( bits, bytes and words/ long words ) can be hacked and siphoned away from personal or institutional accounts ( like BANKS ) these days, nothing seems secure any more! Recall the recent RBS and NatWest fiasco? A server with undeleted info of hundreds of thousands of clients' personal data was sold on Ebay!!
That's why it is easy to say that with the advent of technology, there is another EVIL coming out of the pandora's box - INSECURITY! Even online companies can be hit and run scams! Ladbrokes ( which provide 10p / tick or pip ) and William Hills might soon go bust! There is no guarantee anymore! In a recession, if you can grow your own food ( cheaply ), if you can produce your own energy ( cheaply ) or if you can try to eat little, but yet survive, you will be within the 10% winning list!!!!!
Of course, you have also to construct your own house or get a traveller's Caravan and place yourself under government benefits! A sure winner for most!
This has got nothing to do with MATH or ANALYSIS - just PURE WISDOM!
S K
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi There
Be one with GOD, so that HE may appoint a deliver for your Soul!
HariHaraBramKalki ( S K )
Yahoo! 360° - S K's Profile
Hi again, Imran!
Recall that as a muslim, one cannot earn interest ( as it is considered Haram! )? You must know that trading for the muslims as liken to earning interest, except for those who are paid salaries ( as traders for a company ).
While it is a fact that, 90 to 95 % of the traders lost their money, during a War or Market Crash, it is those who had placed their money who would lose everything!! Why? 'Cos nobody would be ablr yo guarantee anything - not the banks, not the govenments and not the UN! Except those who control the supply of resources like food, fuel and energy! But, with the necessary security like weapons to protect their INVESTMENT.
As you know, even money as data ( bits, bytes and words/ long words ) can be hacked and siphoned away from personal or institutional accounts ( like BANKS ) these days, nothing seems secure any more! Recall the recent RBS and NatWest fiasco? A server with undeleted info of hundreds of thousands of clients' personal data was sold on Ebay!!
That's why it is easy to say that with the advent of technology, there is another EVIL coming out of the pandora's box - INSECURITY! Even online companies can be hit and run scams! Ladbrokes ( which provide 10p / tick or pip ) and William Hills might soon go bust! There is no guarantee anymore! In a recession, if you can grow your own food ( cheaply ), if you can produce your own energy ( cheaply ) or if you can try to eat little, but yet survive, you will be within the 10% winning list!!!!!
Of course, you have also to construct your own house or get a traveller's Caravan and place yourself under government benefits! A sure winner for most!
This has got nothing to do with MATH or ANALYSIS - just PURE WISDOM!
S K
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi There
Be one with GOD, so that HE may appoint a deliver for your Soul!
HariHaraBramKalki ( S K )
Yahoo! 360° - S K's Profile
Trader333
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Any zero sum activity is based on the view that if someone has more than they started with then someone else or several others engaged in the same activity must have either a liability or a loss. This does not apply to buying and selling of stocks as you can buy at one price and sell at a profit without that sale incurring a new liability or loss to those who have become the new owners.
Paul
Paul
