The Journey from the Basement

[SOCRATES]

Dear Barjon, I say this to you and to all of you reading this as well, try the following :~

Now you choose a tree in a quiet spot away from all distractions and sit under it and apply concentrated thought to the problem you just described. It is not rational is it, to make a decision and then tinker with it in the knowledge that the moment you tinker with it you are negating what you intended to do ?

This is not common sense, is it ? It is a very odd way to behave, because if you could alter the outcome by doing this then it could be justified. But this is not the case, to the contrary, it potentially makes what is developing into a bad situation into a potentially terrible one.

You never entered with the idea that if you did not achieve a satisfactory result you would then turn round and make the result awful instead. This is not normal behaviour. Why not ? It is not normal behaviour because it defeats the original object.

What happens here is that you enter in a logical and deductive mode, you place a stoploss and you are in full command of your faculties when you do this ~ BUT ~ no sooner are you contradicted that your emotions rise to the challenge.

Emotions cannot logically deduce and reason, yet you allow your emotions to countermand what you have decided in advance in the event of you turning out to be wrong or for market conditions to suddenly change. Yet you take it personally as if it were a personal affront or a threat.

What happens is that the ordinary persona views the contradiction as a threat. As the ordinary persona is constructed to preserve life at all cost it responds with the only reflex it can respond with, which happens to be the wrong one.

This may be brutal, but a fact. Now what has to be done is to modify this behaviour but not through the original persona because it is evident that this persona is not built to handle this kind of problem.

 

[SoupDragon]

darktone

But the newly recruited officer could not do the job in hand.
He will have to adopt the correct persona quickly otherwise he will not cope, he cannot wait years otherwise he will be of limited use to the police service.

It would be interesting to ask the Senior Officer how long it took him to develop the correct persona.

Regards

bracke

I think there are verious stages of developing persona and probably developing more than one. Entry into trading is fairly easy it probably attracts more players with the wrong "natural" personas than say the Police Force would. Probably also as the benefits and more importantly the pitfalls of being a Police Officer are much more apparant. Then I think there is, as mentioned, an experience persona that I really dont think you can develop anyother way than by experience. Sure you might be able to accelerate that learning process but not as quick as one really needs to. Also I think you Life Experience also plays a major role. ONly being in my late 20s I have notest that life experience are still playing a part which applies a sort of maturity to my trading that I could not have had when I started 2 years ago. Some say that to use a great example the lovely 17 year Russian Sharaprova(spelling?) is very mature for her age because of her tennis ability and experiences. Maybe a little bit but I saw the girl on Wednesday and she was atypicla teenager.
And regardless how good and mature she is now.......when she looks back in 4 years time she will think "god I was young" and maybe even nieve to some extent. Only time and history can make up that final missing piece if the jigsaw imo.

 

[Trader333]

Buddhist and Barjon,

I am not claiming to have the right persona but I have always had unusually high discipline and certainly when compared to others that I know. Once I make a decision I have the discipline to stick to it even if painful. I have also never had an issue with being wrong about things. If I look back on the reasons why, I think it may be down to the fact that as far back as I can remember I have had people tell me that I am not good enough or that I am wrong about most things. There are two ways you can react to this, one is to become aggressive and prove to others that they are wrong and you are right. The second is to say OK I am wrong so what should I do about it ? So when applied to trading if I have entered a trade and been wrong I know what to do about it and I dont even think as it is all automatic.

On the discipline side I think my youth as an athlete helped there. When others of my age group were out drinking and having a good time I was getting up at 5.00am and training for 2 hours then doing the same again in the evening. This was in addition to dieting to such an extreme that my fat level at one point was at around 3% which for all intents and purposes is as low as you can go without being dead. Anyway during this time I often felt hungry but just didnt eat. So I am used to feeling very uncomfortable but being disciplined about it and almost ignoring it. This has certainly helped in my trading but I wouldnt claim to know it all.


Paul

 

[SOCRATES]

333, you have succeeded in developing a strong mindset. If you think carefully about this, pause to consider how your life experiences have helped you to develop your resolve in this direction.
You were making an effort beyond what can normally be expected from an amateur athlete, it seems to me from your post. As a consequence of this you are accustomed to pushing the envelope with yourself and to focus very intensely. This is not a common faculty among people who aspire to enter this arena.
People who enter this arena are not prepared in this way. It is not their fault. But they have to be made to recognise that there is an envelope there to be pushed, and not for the envelope to push them in the direction they want. Their problem is that to a large extent they have not had an envelope to seriously push and now that one appears it is very easy to skirt round it. This is why the use of indicators is so popular and is widely promoted since it is known that this is an inability to which most people easily succumb. This is the character and persona aspect of trading, and if this were not daunting enough now they have to get to grips with the market, and all the distractions around it.

 

[barjon]

This may be brutal, but a fact. Now what has to be done is to modify this behaviour but not through the original persona because it is evident that this persona is not built to handle this kind of problem.

Socrates,

Brutal, but a fact that I fully realise.

Now then - when I was young I lacked self-confidence, but I wrapped protective layers around myself until no-one could see (unless they were particularly astute) that I lacked confidence. Over the years these layers thickened to the extent that I was regarded as being fully self-confident and I behaved in a confident fashion without it causing me thought or concern. It is a moot point as to whether my persona had changed or whether, deep down, I was still that same person lacking in self-confidence and I was not only fooling all the people but myself as well.

The point of this story is - does it matter? Using the stoploss story it's clear that Paul had the persona to activate his mental stoploss religiously from the off. I did not, but I have wrapped the protective layer of discipline around me until our behaviour is the same even though our personas may be quite different and he does it intuitively and me mechanically.

(Vodaphone excepted, of course )

 

[SOCRATES]

That is OK Barjon, it is not ideal but it is OK. The ideal condition is for you to create a separate persona in a similar construction to the self - confident one. Notice how it is that they are not allowed to clash.
This is because you are not consciouly aware of the construction and you keep them separate. If you were to muddle them then your confidence might be dented with less than would now be required to dent it.

 

[Buddhist]

Quite right. No, of course it doesnt matter. Like I said earlier. It is over-diagnosis. Whether or not you went through a process (it is called character amouring by the way - as well as a couple of other things) is neother here nor there.

To be honest, the whole concept that you develop a persona for trading is so obvious as to be facile in the extreme; we all develop multiple personae as a matter of course; one for work, one for down the pub, one for the wife (or husband), one for the kids etc etc.

I cant imagine why there has been so much air time on this.

3-bob;'s worth this time.

David

Socrates,

Brutal, but a fact that I fully realise.

Now then - when I was young I lacked self-confidence, but I wrapped protective layers around myself until no-one could see (unless they were particularly astute) that I lacked confidence. Over the years these layers thickened to the extent that I was regarded as being fully self-confident and I behaved in a confident fashion without it causing me thought or concern. It is a moot point as to whether my persona had changed or whether, deep down, I was still that same person lacking in self-confidence and I was not only fooling all the people but myself as well.

The point of this story is - does it matter? Using the stoploss story it's clear that Paul had the persona to activate his mental stoploss religiously from the off. I did not, but I have wrapped the protective layer of discipline around me until our behaviour is the same even though our personas may be quite different and he does it intuitively and me mechanically.

(Vodaphone excepted, of course )

 

[SOCRATES]

Dear Audience, does it not occur to you that our friend Barjon has inadvertently created another persona which coincindentally he can funnel his trading through without involving his original persona that lacks
self confidence ? This is why he has been having all these lightbulbs going on inside his head for weeks !
I am very pleased with this !

 

[barjon]

I go along with that. For a long time my own feeling of self-confidence in the working environment was considerably greater than in life in general. I suppose you could say I had created a "work" persona....... now for the trading one!!

 

[SOCRATES]

Gawd. Socrates, come on. No offence, and I know that people get banned for disagreeing with you, but for goodness sake. Do you really not see how patronising and condescending this is?

Crikey!

David

Buddhist I can see you mean well but this is not condescending . I am trying very hard to raise the awareness of the audience to go in a direction which is the correct one, but because it is never discussed it is unfamiliar. Barjon is already making progress and I am very pleased that he is. If you had my experience over many years you would immediately recognise what is and what is not relevant , please.

 

[SOCRATES]

I go along with that. For a long time my own feeling of self-confidence in the working environment was considerably greater than in life in general. I suppose you could say I had created a "work" persona....... now for the trading one!!

That is absolutely right. But it does not happen overnight. I will help you to help yourself to do the work to construct it.

 

[SOCRATES]

David, what I find extraordinary is that you are a Hypnotherapist by profession.
Yours is not a pick and shovel activity.
The difficulty here is that people have life experiences that are formative.
therefore the cling to their life experiences and they try to apply these to what they now attempt.
I am telling you this to put you in the picture because I think that you ought to undserstand this dilemma better than others.
People have a great reluctance to enter domains which are unfamiliar and which on first inpecition they may view as unnecessarry. But I assure youthat it is necessary for them to undergo change.
They cannot do the work they need to do with the toolkit that they use in ordinary daily life.
They need a new and different set of tools that first they have to acquire, and then they have to learn to use them properly.
I am doing my best to get people to cooperate for their benefit.
I do not have to do this. I am doing it because for me it is very easy, and I would feel guilty
if I saw people having huge difficulties they cannot surmount because in the first instancce they
cannot pin what it is they have to surmount. I have acquired the ball of string that leads through
the maze they find themselves in. That is all.

 

[Buddhist]

*shrug*.

To be candid I dont really give a damn what you find extraordinary. The fact is that I actually understand a little bit about psychology and I know a little bit about personae and mindsets; more I think than you do. What I came here for, and what I have managed to do a little of, but not so much as I would have wished, is to learn about the mechanics and the strategies of trading from people who know more about *that* than I do..

What I find is a few experienced traders from whom I can learn, and a few other people who want to learn. Fine. Unfortunately, the signal to noise ratio, particularly in threads in which you participate, is very poor, and people who challenge you or disagree with you get banned by a partisan and over-zealous moderator who appears to have something in his/her pants for you.

Any message contained in your posts is confused and shrouded in poor English. It is pompous, condescending and patronising. In short, so far as I am concerned, it is useless.

In my 54 years on God's Earth, I have met (and treated) more people with a guru complex than you can shake a stick at. Typically they all pretend to want to shed a little light on the path of les fortunate mortals, but in fact all they are doing is feeding their own ego. If you are not one of these insufferable bores, then my sincere advice for you is this: if you wish to try and help people, then try not to be so self-obsessed. What you think of as a great wisdom and knowledge and learning, useful though it may be to others, is probably only a little bit of the picture. Forget the pop-psychology which you clearly don't understand very well. Forget the 'come hither my children and worship at my feet while I patiently try to bring you to the light' approach, and instead apply some direct and commonsense language; in this way you may actually benefit people with an IQ of over 100, instead of merely irritating them.

I am quite prepared for flames from your admirers; I am quite prepared for banning by your tame moderator, and I dont actually care. You are an adult and entitled to direct opinion. Also, I cant be bothered to flannel and I suspect that subtlety will be lost on you - I doubt I am the first to have made these observations. You just won't have listened to the others and probably won't listen to me either but since you have attempted to patronise me directly on 2 occasions now, I feel entitled to be direct and to the point.

If you have something to impart then kindly do so. I for one would be happy to learn from you, or anyone else for that matter, but for goodness sake lose the pretentious bull**** because it is just plain irritating. Please.

David

 

[Bigbusiness]

It is a shame that those who want to read this thread have to wade through so many posts about Socrates use of English and manners and not about the content regarding trading.

I can see both sides of the argument here and surely the best solution is for Socrates or Skim to open a private board for this thread. Then those that want to read it could apply to one of them and those that don't can easily ignore it.

The threat of a ban seems to have spurred on a few TTW members that might not have taken such action in more usual circumstances. I hope some action is taken to sort this out as the present solution doesn't seem to be working.

 

[SOCRATES]

Good Morning Bigbusiness, the question of a private board is premature but it is inevitable and then the detractors will rue the day they detracted. For the moment I am willing to work through the noise as I have already detected a small contingent of true darksiders who recognise the value of what is laid in front of them, and also there are members like you for example who have ben busy observing and even printing off tracts, but not posting.

What seems to infuriatae the detractors is the fact that I am not teaching.They want to be taught and they want to be taught in three minutes or thereabouts and I am not doing it. This thread is for the purpose of encouraging people to lay the correct foundations upon which to construct the correct mindset that a really serious trader recognises is imperative for continued success.
And they get frustrated because all of this is above their heads and it is not my fault but theirs.

 

[Rognvald]

With respect, private boards are not the answer for the membership as a whole although they may be for a poster who is being hounded in this fashion and for those who want to engage with him.

Socrates is a trader with many years of experience and much to offer to a membership that wishes to learn.

A few members recognise this and openly let their views be known. Many recognise it and stand and watch (from the balcony - lurk) but do not wish to be involved in the sort of sniping and malicious bickering that occasionally mars this site. A few individuals (sometimes very ignorant ones) whose own egos cannot accommodate an original approach and style take refuge in petty and personal insults and disruptive behaviour. If this is allowed to continue the result is bad for the site and by definition bad for the members.

Socrates is not posting to engage in an ego trip, as he has nothing to prove. He posts to pass on the benefit of his experience in the best way he knows to what he originally believed would be an interested and appreciative audience. He is not teaching but is stimulating and provoking constructive thought and discussion thought on aspects of trading at a number of levels.

Members should be able to distinguish between the personality and the content and should also learn to set aside their prejudices in the common good. These are lessons taught mostly by life experience but a few either don’t have the experience or are not willing to be gain the benefit of that experience or cannot. They spoil the party for those who have it and ensure that in future knowledgeable posters may think twice or more before spending their valuable time being rubbished in this fashion.

If members don’t like the content of a thread or the method of delivery or accept the logic of posters then they don’t have to look at it. If they want to discuss the same topics from another perspective they are free to start a new thread and make it plain what it is about.

What is being said by moderators on behalf of the site is that, within the boundaries laid out, anyone has the right to open up threads and respond to threads and in so doing to discuss trading related matters.

Common courtesy dictates that members have the manners to let Socrates and those who wish to read his posts and engage with him get on with it. As with “residents”, members have a right to the quiet use and enjoyment of the site and its contents.

 

[SOCRATES]

*shrug*.
To be candid I dont really give a damn what you find extraordinary. The fact is that I actually understand a little bit about psychology and I know a little bit about personae and mindsets; more I think than you do. What I came here for, and what I have managed to do a little of, but not so much as I would have wished, is to learn about the mechanics and the strategies of trading from people who know more about *that* than I do..

What I find is a few experienced traders from whom I can learn, and a few other people who want to learn. Fine. Unfortunately, the signal to noise ratio, particularly in threads in which you participate, is very poor, and people who challenge you or disagree with you get banned by a partisan and over-zealous moderator who appears to have something in his/her pants for you.

Any message contained in your posts is confused and shrouded in poor English. It is pompous, condescending and patronising. In short, so far as I am concerned, it is useless.

######################################################################


This is a special explantion for you and for your friend Harryp.

You may well shrug. You have come to the wrong thread to learn about the mechanics of trading, by which you really mean the mechansism of how supply and demand is handled.
The handling of supply and demand incorporates individual trading methods, and within those methods there are there are posibilities of employing different stategies.

In this thread we are not discussing the above. We are beyond that. This thread is for members who already have mastered mechanics and strategies, as you call them.
These members now are on to a higher level of proficiency at which they need to perfect their methodologies which is very different to where you are, the pair of you.

All else you say in your diatribe above is totally irrelevant, except that if you call yourself a hypnotherapist you ought to at least in limited measure be able to keep up with what is being discussed here, which is very high above what you are currently seeking, which appears evidently by your comments to be the very basics. There are other threads where you can find discussions along lines more suited to the level you seek, not in this one, sorry.

 

[pkfryer]

I have to say that I agree with Buddhist and dc2000, and disagree with skimbleshanks and co.

A thread should have both sides of the story, and differences of opinion posted. It is freedom of speech which many millions of people died for over the centuries. If a poster or an idea cannot survive an intelligent person questioning it, or disagreeing with it, then it is obviously a very unsound idea. I find it very strange that moderators inappropriately ban people for merely discussing ideas and not actually abusing someone. This is very draconian and immature!

Disagreements and difference of opinion actually spur on intellectual discussions, it is as vital to a thread and to a community as air and water is to survival!

I personally have no time for threads like this as I too find Socrates style very condescending. I dont like the guru act and have no time for it, so haven't even been bothered to post. But i have been spurred on to post by the fact that freedom of speech is being restricted. It comes accross as if no one can possibly be allowed to quite reasonably disagree with someone. People who are interested in a subject but just so happen to have other thoughts or questions about certain points. Discussion is exploring an idea, thinking around a subject... it is not blind affirmation . Restricting freedom of speech is not the act of intelligent people... and I question the intentions of moderators and their true motivations.

I have read dc2000's other posts and he is not an offensive poster at all. If I find that buddhist has been banned it will raise serious questions about moderators suitability for their positions.

I also have to point out that in various threads I have created explaining some of my ideas I have had other posters disagreeing with me using sound logic and reasoning.... they weren't banned! Why is this? Someone posted on my thread that didn't agree with what I said, but was still interested in the subject matter... they didn't say: "Yes sir! You are correct and a genius" but said "I dont agree with that... I think this". I wasn't upset but took their ideas on board or clarified my reasoning to address their point of view.

That is good and vital to the formation of new ideas. I find it incredible that people think that differences of opinion and thought is somehow offensive.

 

[Rognvald]

From one “and co”

Pkf

Let’s discuss the meaning of some words please:

Moderator: - One that moderates, as: One that arbitrates or mediates. - One who presides over a meeting, forum, or debate.

The officer who presides over an assembly to preserve order, propose questions, regulate the proceedings, and declare the votes.

Appropriate: - suitable for a particular person or place or condition

Draconian: – often applied to laws of unnecessary rigour

Internet BB sites like all debating forums require rules of conduct. They require individuals with the patience of saints who volunteer and are prepared to put up with hours of work day and night, rudeness and insults to allow you and others to have the freedom of speech we all wish for expressed in an orderly and polite way.

So we have an Internet BB with 16083 members. We have moderators appointed by the site owner who has confidence in them and has vested certain power in them (i.e. laid down the law of the site for the moderators to enforce).

We have a large democratic membership with the vast majority accepting the laws as appropriate. We have a small number of members who use words loaded with emotive content: “Freedom of speech which millions of people died for over the centuries”, “very draconian”. We have statements that are nonsensical “If a poster or an idea cannot survive an intelligent person questioning it, or disagreeing with it, then it is obviously a very unsound idea”. Ideas survive because they are supported by stronger cohorts than those supporting other ideas (that then disappear). Price moves up because there is more pushing it up than down (path of least resistance)

What we have is a thread with 25,000+ views in a 2 week period - I think probably the most viewed thread in the history of the site. The opposition to Socrates’ views has come from a handful of members. Members have repeatedly been told what the ground rules are. 99+% of members accept these as reasonable and necessary. A few do not. How much more patience must be exercised before the small minority accepts the path of least resistance, realises the market is against it and cuts its losses?

 

[bracke]

Staggering, absolutely @!&"£$# staggering !

The thread is moved from it's original site to get away from the sniping and it all starts again !

If visitors to this thread consider SOCRATES so objectionable why come back ?

If I visit a thread which I think is no good I don't criticise the posters, I might ask a questiion and if I still don't like it I don't go back.

Alright you may not like SOCRATE'S style, or his choice of words, or his message, or anything else about him, so be it. Others do so, please let him get on with it and if you don't like it go to threads that you do like.

I am not a 'Disciple' of SOCRATES, nor am I wanting to stifle genuine questions. I just want to get on with it and see where it takes us

This post is not an invite to debate SOCRATES the poster, there is no point as it's all been said.

My exasperated persona has been used to write this post.

Regards

bracke