The Journey from the Basement

[SOCRATES]

None of this whinging is going to prod me in a public forum,
to confide openly in each and every poster what is not necessary,
to explain further what I do not have to explain,
to expand on what I should not expand,
to teach what cannot be taught,
to impart what the great majority are unworthy of,
or to do the work for anyone.
But as an act of generosity,
I am willing to help everyone to progress,
first with themselves and then their own responses.
What is more those who are truly empowered try to persuade me
not to proceed with this at all ~ and they are not posters !

 

[ford]

*shrug*.

To be candid I dont really give a damn what you find extraordinary. The fact is that I actually understand a little bit about psychology and I know a little bit about personae and mindsets; more I think than you do. What I came here for, and what I have managed to do a little of, but not so much as I would have wished, is to learn about the mechanics and the strategies of trading from people who know more about *that* than I do..

[ .. ]

David

I'm affraid you have come to the wrong thread then. Discussion of the mechanical aspects is in my original thread which was annexed from SOCRATES' posts specifically so there would be no complaints and feet dragging by those who wanted what you do.

The theme of this thread is specifically for what SOCRATES has to post, and as we know, there will be no mechanical discussion for a very long time, perhaps never.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=7751

 

[barjon]

pkfryer

I don't think anyone is trying to restrict disagreement or differences of view. All that is being asked is that those alternatives are presented courteously and with reasoned argument. ie) not just flat unsupported statements of the "this is balderdash" type.

Similarly, many posts relate to Socarates' style - usually in pretty discourteous terms - and these are not only totally irrelevant but have proved to be disruptive. His style is not the topic of this thread and whether people like it or hate it is entirely immaterial. What does matter is whether he has anything important to say - you won't be surprised that I think he does.

You also need to wonder why someone like Skim is moderating so heavily. Maybe she too thinks Socrates has something important to offer.

You will know that Skim has proved her trading credentials many times over on T2W over the last few years. Socrates has demonstrated his in real time on the link provided by Paul (post 634) who has also proved his credentials time and time again with real time posts. Maybe they really do know what they are talking about.

Anyway, good trading.

Jon

 

[SOCRATES]

What we have is a thread with 25,000+ views in a 2 week period - I think probably the most viewed thread in the history of the site. The opposition to Socrates’ views has come from a handful of members. Members have repeatedly been told what the ground rules are. 99+% of members accept these as reasonable and necessary. A few do not. How much more patience must be exercised before the small minority accepts the path of least resistance, realises the market is against it and cuts its losses?

Thank you Rognavald, with reference to your last paragraph, and in particular to the last two closing lines, I am very reluctant to deprive a worldwide audience of guidance that many desperately need, even if the great majority do not realise it.

In this connection, because I appreciate that the Art and Practice of Darksiding is not for everyone, let alone taking it beyond what is mechanical, to higher plane of understanding and proficiency, I now have had time to study the quality of posts each individual has made.

I have looked at each poster's posting record, one by one. This means I have taken the trouble to read everything each contributor to the thread has ever posted and in what context and at what level. As a consequence of this I now have a grip of who's who.

Now being in posession of this grip, I am able to decide. If I am forced to take the most important key aspects of these discussions out of public circulation I will do so. Then it will be too late to come back to the public forum. I am sure there are many people who are very interested in this thread and I consider it a shame to deprive nearly everybody, but on occasions like this, I am forced to seriously consider it and do not carry it out in mitigation of the few.

 

[SoupDragon]

"I don't think anyone is trying to restrict disagreement or differences of view"

unfortunately that wasnt the case before the thread split. Moderator seems a bit more tolerant
but when one does join to discuss the "darkside" which might involve disagreements and opposition
"his "style does become very much relevent. I have not as yet seen any poster of disagreement (against the contenet not Soc) be dealt with the basic respect all posters I think deserve. This is unfortunately a relection on Socrates and not theposters and ulimately disrupts the threads. If Socrates stopped refering to posters who disagree as members on a lesser level of proficiency with basic views etc the whole debate will quieten down. It's a two way street imo but one lane is blocked by an over turned Lorry.

 

[SOCRATES]

Hello Soup Dragon, your view is fair. However because in this Profession there is a learning curve which is very steep and difficult, there are many individuals who are impatient or uninformed or both, who argue.

This is very annoying if they are not able to recognise at which level of expertise they are at, and act accordingly. None of us were born knowing, we all had to learn. the infuriating part is that the ones who know less are invariably the ones to cause all the trouble.

Notwithanding that there are many beginners and intermediate members also who work very hard and behave very well, and a joy to everybody, and a credit to themselves.

 

[TheBramble]

Strewth!!! If you don't like the thread, the content, the rules of conduct, the way it's handled, Socrates, his style, his manner, the other posters who do want to carry on, the moderation - don't visit the thread. It's as simple as that.

For those who do use this thread, there are well defined ground-rules and nobody can cry 'foul' if, over-stepping the mark they are dealt with in the pre-determined and defined manner.

This isn't a thread for debating. Or of debating how threads should be debated. Or moderated.

Skim's 'thread split' post should be a 'sticky post' (I know that isn't technically possible...) so that all who enter are reminded that this is a special thread - with special rules - because it can. If you don't like it - fine - don't visit - don't participate.

It amazes me. Many of those who pointlessly attack Socrates' style etc. are experienced (successful?) traders. They can read market conditions. Where the balance of power lies. When to get out, when to stay out - and when to get on board. Why can't they read the conditions here in this thread? It's just the same. It might not be what they like - they may not understand it - but it's just like the market. Learn the rules.

As for those of us who wish to continue (especially those on the balcony who would lose out big time if Socrates goes private with this) can I make a suggestion?

And it is this:- For those posters who want to use this thread to work out their own issues & problems in whatever guise they choose to cloak it - we simply ignore the post. Saves pressure on our mods - saves us wasting our time.

In working on our trading persona, we can make a start by feeling what it feels like to be just that little bit stronger each time we ignore or refrain from a rebuttal (however sorely it's needed!) to an inappropriate post.

The thing is - it's not the poster themselves that's bad or wrong or crap. Most of them are really nice people with lots of good advice - in other forums. But this one just brings out the devil in them!

So, let's do them and ourselves a favour and let them work their stuff out in a more appropriate environment.

Just a suggestion. But one I'll personally be following.

 

[brys]

And it is this:- For those posters who want to use this thread to work out their own issues & problems in whatever guise they choose to cloak it - we simply ignore the post. Saves pressure on our mods - saves us wasting our time.

In working on our trading persona, we can make a start by feeling what it feels like to be just that little bit stronger each time we ignore or refrain from a rebuttal (however sorely it's needed!) to an inappropriate post.

The thing is - it's not the poster themselves that's bad or wrong or crap. Most of them are really nice people with lots of good advice - in other forums. But this one just brings out the devil in them!

So, let's do them and ourselves a favour and let them work their stuff out in a more appropriate environment.

Just a suggestion. But one I'll personally be following.

You just beat me to exactly the suggestion. I understand that this a public forum blah, blah, blah. However, it thread/line of thinking was started by Socrates thus I feel his rules and style apply. I don't understand how some people don't see this is about the pre-requisites for trading and NOT trading itself. Let's not waist any more energy on this and move on {{off to watch some ftv to calm down }}

Regards,

Robert

 

[Mr. Charts]

I have desisted from joining this exchange of views up to now, but I see this situation a little differently to some.
I do see how many people dislike Socrates' approach and I confess that at my very first glance I understood their annoyance. However, very quickly I saw that he has trodden a familiar path to myself and all that entails.
If his style is viewed as unsympathetic and lacking in manners, then perhaps I can express the scenario through a different prism to cast a new light into what some view as a Heart Of Darkness.

You have joined a volunteer army so don't blame the serjeant - major's style when the purpose is trying to re-invent his recruits so they become efficient fighting men and find within themselves the strength to go to war....it's not personal, he's trying to help you survive a dangerous environment by developing the toughness and right persona to do the most dangerous job in the world.

If you don't wish to be part of the volunteer army, you can leave with no disrespect - it is your choice of what you view as best for yourself.

If you wish to carry on and learn from someone who has fought the war and won - it is your choice of what you view as best for yourself.

If you feel you have already been through the war and won through - you can simply observe the proceedings - and feel whatever you feel.


Richard

 

[brys]

fear again!

I think this is hope rather than fear. In my view hope is even worse than fear. Fear makes you 'do' things whereas hope paralyses you. A very useless feeling in trading or otherwise.

cheers,

Robert

 

[Buddhist]

sounds reasonable... though to be candid when I posted that I had very much in mind that hope in this case is actually the fear of losing out...

David

I think this is hope rather than fear. In my view hope is even worse than fear. Fear makes you 'do' things whereas hope paralyses you. A very useless feeling in trading or otherwise.

 

[tomcat]

Lets push things foward.(animal lesson 4)

Lets try and get back to why we are here. I have Just read animal lesson number 4 and here is my initial commmet.



in my view i imagine the rhino as the market.. she is over emotional( like my girlfriend telling me to stop typing this and go into the lounge), he moves quickly with out thought and charges until all the emotional has been realeased. this is the momentum of the market.

The farmer is not thinking. He is not examining the situation to arrive at a conclusion. He is in a emotional state and thinking of his material wealth and property.( he isnt trying to understand the nature of the beast and his emotions are based on fear, loss,( or would it be greed actually). The rhino is strong. This the farmer knows and so do the tribesman. But there thinking about the same thing is completely different.

the tribesman are knowledgable. The know the nature of the animal. they respect the animal and work with the animal rather than trying to overpower and control the animal. The have assesed the risks and are manipulating the animal to do what they want it to do without going against it.

socrates, these lessons are superb. Im i on the right path or am i missing something.

 

[SOCRATES]

No you are not off the path and you're not missing anything, however you can make better use of these stories in order to develop triggers. I am going to proceed to review all the animal lessons and I will show you why it is important to do so.

As we are frequently interrupted by people who do not understand or are not interested in progressing or otherwise and as a consequence of taking a lot of time and effort to read everything everybody has posted on this thread so far I now know who's who in all this. Therefore as we go up the ladder there will be new words used, ciphers utilised to describe specific things and so on.

As I wish to keep it in the public domain but darksiding is a topic we wish to keep amongst ourselves in order not to let cats out of bags to the wrong people, but to be able to allow everyone to see it, I am forced to take this route.

The other route is to discuss this in a private chatroom by invitation only but this will deprive deserving others of the benefit. Therefore I am forced to make a compromise not to penalise deserving others but to keep unwanted troublemakers firmly in the dark as to what , in darksiding terms is being discussed.

This will not please the detractors and I make no apology for that as my patience has been sorely tested and continues to be tested, the difference is that from now on we are going to publicly discuss crucial darksiding issues in exclusively darksiding language, that is fair is it not ?

 

[DaveJB]

Socrates,
do you have a copy of the animal lessons in one file by any chance? I've come to the party late and whilst I've been wading manfully through it all I'm only about 20 pages into this epic... and to be honest the relevant bits are your stories and the occasional reply when somebody tries to interpret one. The 'noise' here is tremendous and it's making it difficult to follow, I'm not even sure I've found the start <g>
Am I way off base here, or are you basically saying that if you watch the market with the correct mindset you will be able to spot the actions of those who determine its course, but that the way we train ourselves to think to cope with everyday life makes us apply interpretations of what we see that are erroneous - we see the events that precede the market's next phase, and promptly misinterpret it because handling life and handling the market require different analysis? A sort of 'see what is really there, not your usual analysis of what is there' ... we see an event and store in our brains our interpretation of the event rather than what actually occurred...
Personally I'm not entirely convinced this is going to lead me somewhere, but it's an interesting journey so I'll continue to read the backlog, whilst my software analyses the action as best I can persuade it to I'm firmly convinced that ace traders need no more than price and volume so I'm happy to to learn what I can.
Dave

 

[SOCRATES]

The philosopher Bishop Berkeley explained that "If you need to understand the meaning of a word, look to its use" As in the higher echelons of darksiding which is the domain of a separate persona created specifically for the purpose of trading without indicators or signals and frequently without a chart and just on the flow of raw numbers and the language these numbers utilise to convey intent to suitably tuned recipients which to my horror is a fraction of one percent.

As there are several methods of dealing with many issues ignored by non darksiders,
then we have to use words specifically constructed to deal with these issues or to recycle words in common usage for the purpose.

This is very high above what most ordinaty people feel they ought to aspire to. This is not elitist, I may add, it is on merit, on ability and on conduct. As I have had the oppotunity to study carefully over several weeks who can and who can't , who behaves properly and who does not, who is deserving and who is not, I have now decided to follow this route as none of this is teaching.

If it were teaching, it would be a different matter, but it is not. Those of you not included as a result of your conduct towards me, the other darksiders and the moderators, will be left out. There is no forgiveness, there are no excuses and there is no appeal.

And that is final.

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates,
do you have a copy of the animal lessons in one file by any chance? I've come to the party late and whilst I've been wading manfully through it all I'm only about 20 pages into this epic... and to be honest the relevant bits are your stories and the occasional reply when somebody tries to interpret one. The 'noise' here is tremendous and it's making it difficult to follow, I'm not even sure I've found the start <g>
Am I way off base here, or are you basically saying that if you watch the market with the correct mindset you will be able to spot the actions of those who determine its course, but that the way we train ourselves to think to cope with everyday life makes us apply interpretations of what we see that are erroneous - we see the events that precede the market's next phase, and promptly misinterpret it because handling life and handling the market require different analysis? A sort of 'see what is really there, not your usual analysis of what is there' ... we see an event and store in our brains our interpretation of the event rather than what actually occurred...
Personally I'm not entirely convinced this is going to lead me somewhere, but it's an interesting journey so I'll continue to read the backlog, whilst my software analyses the action as best I can persuade it to I'm firmly convinced that ace traders need no more than price and volume so I'm happy to to learn what I can.
Dave

No, I am truly sorry. This thread had to be split from No Indicators for two reasons, being that the No Indicators thread was very long and becoming cumbersome to handle from the technical point of view, loading, editing. etc.,
The other reason why it was split is because it attracted all sorts of idiots and troublkemakers and people not interested in contributing constructively and snipers and so on therefore it has been split and all these are supervised with draconian severity, but you can see that there are still remnants, but I am determined to keep as much of this in the public domain as possible against all odds. You will have to read no indicators from the beginning to get a grip on the original line of discussion and then all of From the Basement to continue where that left off. I am sorry you will have to plough though it otherwise you will not be able to grasp what is under discussion in its proper context.

 

[DaveJB]

Okay,
I'll live with it <g> Unfortunately I've got rather a lot on currently and am snatching periods where I can - it would have been nice if the irrelevant posts weren't included, 46 pages and counting just for this 'basement' thread.
Oh well - I'll try to catch up, perhaps a Mod is in a position to do an 'edited highlights' at some point - the problem is only going to get worse, as others decide it's worth a look but are faced with dozens of pages to get up to date.... there must be less than 20 pages of contribution here, it's growing almost faster than I can read it!

 

[SOCRATES]

Let us quietly persist with our objective which is to create a specific persona for the purpose of trading only. As discussed before, the persona we use in daily life is not suitable for this arena. Therefore a new persona in parallel to the original persona has to be created and kept separate.

You will find that the act of creating and developing this new persona which is so different to the original will help to define the dividing line between the original and the created. The original keeps all its humanistic faculties.

The created persona has no such signifiicant humanistic faculties, it has other faculties present in the original but masked and in many instances overwhelmed by humanistic D31.
. Therefore the task in hand is to segregate faculties present in the original and isolate them in a way that they cannot be overwhelmed as a consequence of humanistic influence.

In Animal Lessons No1, and its sequel we see how the twig bird has developed a technique to hunt for worms to feed its family and at the same time avoid predators and competitors. Many of ;you have replied with very interesting and constructive interpretations.

The idea is to try to resist making interpretations in this way and instead view the story to see what parallels it present with your view of the market not as an ordinary person but from your point of view as a trader, to see what, if any realisations you have about it.

If you can do this you cultivate the ability to see in different scenarios all sorts of things you are able to choose whether to absorb them as an ordinary person or as a trader. If you cultivate the ability to absorb things from the point of view of a trader you will succeed in enriching your understanding as a trader.

Furthermore if you begin to cultivate the habit you will discover you are able to consciously choose whether you wish to view whatever it is either from the point of view of an ordinary person, or from the point of view of a trader.

As the persona you need and wish to develop is that of a trading persona you must go about consciously thinking about all sorts of things, not just Animal Lessons in an attempt to allow this new persona that you are creating to set roots.All this has to be done in C20. A failure to do it in C20 leads to C22. This is a disaster.

The correct way to approach it is to immediately grab the idea presented and consider it in the context a trader would consider it. In this way the realisations you may have are related not to your original persona's view of events but to the specially created persona's view of events.

By going back again and again to the trading persona's view , we shall see how that view becomes enhanced , when at first it is flat , then it begins to have depth and ends up being multidimensional.
When I first came across the story of the Twig Bird I immediately viewed it from the point of view of a trader,
to see what I could learn from it. Here is what I learnt.

Pay attention if a bottom is formed that it is not penetrated and the reasons why.
How the time is utilised in the above.
How the instrument is chosen by the predator from a variety of instruments and why.
Why the predator is required to persist.
What is the effect and the result of his persistence.
What causes him to persist.
Why persistence is necessary.
Why it is important to keep an eye out for competitors.
Why it is important to be aware of predators.

and at a mechanical level in trading,

How all the available supply is taken up,
How this is done as part of a strategy in order to ensure completiion.
How the same level is visited again and again to achieve the above result.
How it is that a sloping trend line and a support level are the same thing but at different angles.
The consequence of recognising when a market is being tested.
How it is that as supply dries up it becomes more difficult to obtain.
The consequences of all of the above.

 

[ChartMan]

Sorry to disrupt the thread, but I want you to know that the disrupters will be banned as sure as night follows day. Some have already been banned for a week to see if it does the trick. If not , as Skim has already said, we will ban people permanently as well as their attempts to rejoin using a different name. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. Either enjoy this thread and make sensible posts or 'make my day'. I've said it before. If you want to take a pot shot, do it on another thread. I'm sure your opinions will be read by many. If you do it here, no one will read your posts any more because you won't be here.

 

[bracke]

SOCRATES

What are D31, C20 AND C22 ?

Thank you

Regards

bracke