The Journey from the Basement

[SOCRATES]

So they (we) build the necessary persona through training and experience. But what of the character?

If you were setting out to recruit a new member of the LT crew doing this grisly, but unfortunately necessary work, presumably there would be in place an appropriate appraisal and profiling procedure to ensure money, time & effort weren't wasted on training inappropriate personnel or worse still - letting trained, but unsuitable candidates out into the field as it were.

Although more difficult for an abstract art such as trading, I presume there is a parallel 'appraisal and profiling' facility? Or is this, where we're at right at this moment in time, the cutting edge?

The problem is, people do not carry labels stuck to their foreheads stating whether they are
in posession of the right character and whether they are suitable for the task.
Therefore it is a question of elimination of the less suitable by degrees.

In the military this is known as Selection. Whereas many soldiers may have the stamina
and natural strength to carry heavy packs over long distances and over hill and down dale
this is not enough. The candidate now has to prove his character. Those who do not have
the right character do not pass selection.

As character is an invisible, intangible faculty it cannot be immediately identified by the physical presence of the individual, it cannot always be accurately assessed by for example an interviewing technique or otherwise. It requires itself to be verified. This is why these services weed themselves, rather than being completely weeded to start with, as this is not possible.

This is why I am not teaching. I am no longer willing to put up with people pretending to want to master this topic but secretly unwilling or unable to accept all of it, instead of
just the bits they like and not the bits they do not like, while pretending that they have, only to go off and do the opposite of what they ought to be doing and then turning round and blaming everybody but themselves.

Therefore what I am prepared to do is to conduct discussions that constructively will help aspirants to acquire the proper mindset if they have the correct character in the first place and in the second only if in addition they recognise the need to create a separate persona and are willing to cooperate in creating it for themselves.

 

[SOCRATES]

either way I guess one has to question the fact that if one needs a persona to do a particular job....that would highlight the fact that not everyone can do the job due to the inability to develop a persona. Not everyone can be a Officer in the marines, a doctor in A and E and thus is it the same for a trader?

Spot On ! Many can aspire to be an Officer in the Marines. For the reasons you so clearly state above, not everyone can succeed.

But hese are "tangible" occupations. Trading is not a tangible occupation in the sense that what the trader does is invisible because it goes on inside his head. Therefore the rules still apply, but because the tasks that a trader carries out are not tangible like the tasks carried out in the Marines or in A & E, it does nor mean the trader is exonerated from developing the correct persona. Therefore the same rules apply.

In the case of a trader(we are discussing a private trader), who is not subject to a Cadre,
or a Body or Association requiring formal training, nor the creation of a persona alongside it, then the bias is to the opposite :~ i.e.,not only is training not required but it is also perceived as a result of a misconception that the development of a persona is unnecessary. As it is not a seen to be a requirement, therefore the whole topic is seen as not necessary.
Consequently there is no structure.

This is a practical and intellectual disaster.

 

[SoupDragon]

also I would suggest that the formal training that we traders miss can not be made up by purely devloping the right persona. Surely the "experience of winning or losing" can be more of a lesson than just reading about it? It's bit like training to be say an accountant. You can pass all the theory exams but until you've done your 4 years (I think?) you are not a Chartered Accountant. and it's the same with many things so the correct persona develops with experience and how one reacts to those experiences and also how those around you react to those experience.

 

[bracke]

SoupDragon

My impression is that you have to have the appropriate persona in place before you start the trading or very soon after commencing.

Referring to SOCRATES tube workers gathering body parts and soldiers shooting people, they would have great difficulty doing their work without the persona in place at the start.

Regards

bracke

 

[darktone]

I'm stunned. Your making a system available to other t2w members on a commercial basis - and yet you still feel fear when you trade? Do you feel this fear when you trade the system you're selling?

You protect your capital through sound risk & money management - not fear. If fear is genuinely a part of your trading style I can understand why compulsive gambling occurs to you as something you'd rather not consider.

Although Socrates' advanced trading development issues are extremely important, I feel you might want to address the more basic traders' problems first.

To be honest, i dont know any successful trader who doesnt feel a certain amount of fear when placing a trade, whats important is that you recognise this fear and try not to let it intrude to far into any decision making, get to know yourself and find what suits. Fear thats left unconsidered can turn into trade paralysis or at best delayed action, when your in this fragile state you need proof that things are going in the direction of your opinion (weak hands). To much complacence can lead to a gun ho attitude,usually experienced just when your fantastic winning streak is about to come to an end, both are bad imho and a middle ground needs to be found. Im still not convinced this middle ground can be taught but rather earned in the school of hard knocks. IMHO

I still like the term 'strong hands' (the shepherds) . The weak hands (sheep) give to the strong hands. You must make your hands as strong as possible, how do you achieve this? only you can truly answer this

regards
dt

 

[a320]

they all have to create separate personas.
If this persona is not created THAT is the threat to survival.

Interesting use of the word create...Bring into existence out of nothing.. May I be so bold in suggesting, its already in existance, as my post #589 trys to illustrate...??

CJ

 

[darktone]

SoupDragon

My impression is that you have to have the appropriate persona in place before you start the trading or very soon after commencing.

Referring to SOCRATES tube workers gathering body parts and soldiers shooting people, they would have great difficulty doing their work without the persona in place at the start.

Regards

bracke

A friend of mine has just recently joined the police and was called to an RTA. A young fella on a scooter was found at the scene with a leg bent 90 degrees in the wrong direction snapped below the knee, he was screaming with pain. My friend was first on the scene, he nearly puked. He was closely followed by the senior officer (20 years in) whos reaction was "Corrr, that looks painful lol".

Im sure it wasnt pre job education gave him an attitude like that.

 

[Dom1]

Thanks for the welcome Tony

I guess my view of the word persona threw me off. I do believe that we need a certain mindset/persona to trade effectively and that it will not come without great efforts and much time. For some it may never come but for others it may reach an extraordinary level.
Dominic

 

[bracke]

darktone

But the newly recruited officer could not do the job in hand.
He will have to adopt the correct persona quickly otherwise he will not cope, he cannot wait years otherwise he will be of limited use to the police service.

It would be interesting to ask the Senior Officer how long it took him to develop the correct persona.

Regards

bracke

 

[dc2000]

It has been suggested to me in a PM ( thanks member WAQR )

That I should be more humble

I should not ask awkward questions

And that I should jump to the defense of the great man

My ANSWER
I stand in awe of NO MAN least of all a self proclaimed guru

If Naz or Richard posts on these boards the back there strategies with evidence for all to see.
Socrates posts and he doesn't even trade, no one asks why

WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE

 

[Skimbleshanks]

Anyone else want to get themselves banned? Or are all the aggressive ones finally going to heed the clear warnings I've given? Three have now been banned.

Those who are interested in hearing what Socrates has to say wish to do so, I'm sure, without the continual bitching and harassment from a minute percentage of the T2W membership.

Behave, or go - the choice is yours.

 

[Buddhist]

Actually, DC is right, but I suspect you may be defining fear differently from him. In the evolutionary sense in which he was speaking, fear is a natural and essential part of the survival mechanism. You can mitigate it and you can sometimes channel of transmute it but you cannot get rid of it. As always, the devil lies in the detail. fear manifests in differemnt ways, and two of them are caution and prudence.

If you werent motivated by fear as well as greed to some degree, then you wouldnt put your stop losses on and you wouldnt trade (respectively). When you put your stop losses on, do this, it is the more benign aspects of fear which you are responding to.

By the way... buzz you get when the market surges in your favour is the gentle voice of greed... equally primitive and equally essential.

My 2-bob's worth.

David

I'm stunned. Your making a system available to other t2w members on a commercial basis - and yet you still feel fear when you trade? Do you feel this fear when you trade the system you're selling?

You protect your capital through sound risk & money management - not fear. If fear is genuinely a part of your trading style I can understand why compulsive gambling occurs to you as something you'd rather not consider.

Although Socrates' advanced trading development issues are extremely important, I feel you might want to address the more basic traders' problems first.

 

[Trader333]

dc2000,

Check this thread from page 2 onwards:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10136&page=2&pp=15


Paul

PS Oh dear I am too late as he is now banned

 

[SOCRATES]

If you werent motivated by fear as well as greed to some degree, then you wouldnt put your stop losses on and you wouldnt trade (respectively). When you put your stop losses on, do this, it is the more benign aspects of fear which you are responding to.

Before you are able to develop the trading persona you are a prisoner to fear and greed and impatience and impulsiveness because you find yourself in an arena for which you are not prepared. This is not your fault. You are doing your best to tackle a scenario in which you have the choice . If you excercise choice by abstaining, that is OK, because it does not trigger the defence mechanisms (life preservation) that you are accustomed to summonning.

If you excercise choice and this time to enter this arena, bear in mind you are entering the arena not as a trader who has developed a persona specifically for the task, but as an ordinary person (believing yourself to be a trader with a properly developed persona, mindset and tactical proficiency) which you are not, but you believe yourself to be.
Therefore it is imperative that you do not protect yourself, but rather that you protect your INABILITY to respond as you would wish if the position goes against you.

However the odds are that as a consequence of your own humanity doing its best to try to protect you, because it views everything in terms of survival, this response is not the one required to accept failure and execute exit. To the contrary. You are made to believe as a
consequence of this mechanism being in place that you are RIGHT in the face of all contradictory evidence to the contrary because you are in the grip of emotion which has the ability to disable even if you want to exit, you are disabled from enacting. Therefore the
stoploss has to be placed to exonerate you from enacting but at the same time to render you the benefit.

The peversity of this is that you as a person require to be right . If you were not right (and succeeded in learning and doing the right things in life ) you would not be able to survive.
That is why you need to place a stoploss, not as a precaution of the price going against you
~ BUT AS A PRECAUTION IN THE EVENT THAT YOUR ABILITY TO ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH YOUR ABILITY TO LOGICALLY DEDUCE AND REASON IS IMPAIRED BY YOUR RESPONSE TO A SCENARIO IN WHICH EMOTION CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO ENTER.
THE MOMENT YOU ALLOW EMOTION TO ENTER YOUR ABILITY TO ACT IS EITHER IMPAIRED OR DISABLED. THIS IS THE REASON AND NO OTHER.

Otherwise there would be no reason to place a stoploss in advance of an event, would there? No one in his right mind is going to choose to enter a scenario which only offers
disappointment and distress unless the individual suffers from an aberration such as masochism., would he ? But his is not an ideal condition. The ideal condition for a trader
is one of rationality, not the contrary.

 

[Buddhist]

Hrmmm

A touch of over-diagnosis in my humble opinion, it makes it much more complicated than it needs to be. The reality is that caution is the grandchild of fear. More civilised than 'fight or flight', but you dont have to scratch very deeply to find them as well. What you propose as an alternative to fear is merely the mask with which we clothe it .

The sympathetic nervous system functions at a very primitive level. We can learn to mitigate it, even to over-ride it with the intellect, but it is still there. And we need it.

Anyway, not going to debate, like I said, it was just 24 pence worthof opinion.

D

 

[darktone]

darktone

But the newly recruited officer could not do the job in hand.
He will have to adopt the correct persona quickly otherwise he will not cope, he cannot wait years otherwise he will be of limited use to the police service.

It would be interesting to ask the Senior Officer how long it took him to develop the correct persona.

Regards

bracke

Why couldnt he do the job? hes been trained, but he lacks experience 'persona'
As you say, to develop the the correct experience / persona. Will this take weeks / months / years...(perhaps never)? This will surely depend on him as an individual.
Regarding the senior officier, its very possible that he may say his 'development' as an officer is not yet complete.

 

[barjon]

Socrates

How right that is. Hands up all those who have worked with a "mental" stop loss, then ignored it and watched another tranche of points get added to the loss. Hands up, too, those who have set a mechanical stoploss but then extended it (just a bit ) as the price has dived towards it.

 

[darktone]

Socrates

How right that is. Hands up all those who have worked with a "mental" stop loss, then ignored it and watched another tranche of points get added to the loss. Hands up, too, those who have set a mechanical stoploss but then extended it (just a bit ) as the price has dived towards it.

yes and yes... but not for long

 

[barjon]

darktone

mmm, and like stopping smoking the temptation hangs around long after the event.

 

[Trader333]

Hands up all those who have worked with a "mental" stop loss, then ignored it and watched another tranche of points get added to the loss.

I have never on any occasion done this. From the first time I ever used mental stop losses I executed them religiously.


Paul