The Edge Trading System

[ronfalcone]

what about The Edge?

well appreciated discussions about systems, lagging indicators, free info on the web, etc. But now, back to the original discussion: is the Edge effective or not?

Paulus and Babu think so; they've used the system and are happy with it. Seems that lots of folks are stating opinions who haven't used it. Would love to hear from a few more folks who have used it. I'm seriously thinking about paying for the course seeing as its now selling at discount (less a hundred bucks). What the heck, I've spent nearly as much on crapola before that proved utterly useless. At least, several traders have reported positive experiences.

To those who celebrate it, MERRY CHRISTMAS.

Ron

 

[DaveJB]

I have been watching the system for a couple of weeks,
but as I've said before I don't watch it all day every day - so to get a good number of signals to assess it over I have to watch it for longer than a full time user would. I have the system. I don't "think" I have it, I've got a paid up copy of the real thing, and I'm still unconvinced but perfectly willing to keep working at it to see where it leads me.

The lag etc issue is very relevant, as you can only action a signal when it is obvious one has been given. If the profit exit is 10 pts away and the market moves 5 of them before you see the signal is definitely there, then you've turned a winning system into a losing one. That doesn't stop the system PR machine from pointing to the actual signal point, rather than the price real users would be getting in at.

If you really think this is irrelevant then you are determined to buy, so go ahead and buy - you'll enjoy setting the charts up and so on, and I always find it personally interesting to look for things I have been told will make me wealthy <g>

I've seen some good signals and a fair number less good, it's a little difficult to check against the 'official' version as she's not charting the same thing I am, I'm watching the Dow itself and she's showing e-mini Russell. Which is why I've also asked here for other system owners with Dow experience to consider sharing notes.

I watch Dow 1 min chart with longer timeframes for reference, I suspect part of the difference between my idea of what constitutes a signal and the onsite charts record of such is down to the order you look for signal components... there's a bit of a technique to reading the chart the same way as the system seller, I would suggest, that leads to different users getting different results. I have recently started to see things, I think, more her way.... but the jury is still out. I don't think anyone will buy this and be profitable off the shelf, but the mere fact you are looking in some detail at candles on a chart will mean you are likely to see some benefit. You might like to note that one of the indicators used has recently had a parameter change applied, some will view this as more relevant than others.

Paulus and Babu I have no quarrel with, I have no reason to doubt their integrity at all (sincerely), but every system on sale today has a site plastered with testimonials from gloriously satisfied users - I am happy that many of these are genuine, it seems to me that most systems find users who can make it pay... meanwhile a great many, in most cases the majority, lose. This is not automatic signal generation, there is some discretion in deciding if a signal has fired, you have to decide (for example) how long after the indicators do 'A' you'll wait for the chart to do 'B' and still consider the two related.

Dave

 

[ronfalcone]

reave's experiences

[The lag etc issue is very relevant, as you can only action a signal when it is obvious one has been given. If the profit exit is 10 pts away and the market moves 5 of them before you see the signal is definitely there, then you've turned a winning system into a losing one. That doesn't stop the system PR machine from pointing to the actual signal point, rather than the price real users would be getting in at. >

Well, thanks for that Dave. Sounds like you're trying to be objective but haven't quite reached a 'verdict' yet? Overall, though, how would you rate the system? Okay; not yet decided; good; mediocre? Not trying to pick your brain, just want a sign post to be steered toward before I leap in.

As for the issue of lagging indicators, I think you may have misinterpreted my earlier post (I've been known to lead people astray before!). I totally agree on the 'relevance' of lag vs. less lag. In fact, I am tending to be an indicator cynic having toyed with every indicator known to man and every combination therefore. I hate to say it and sound a bit crass, but I think indicators SUCK overall. That's why, my recent delving into Dow e-minis has been fundamentally focused on using some type of statistical measure of price such as Bollinger Bands or Linear Regression Channels. The latter are tricky as hell though and I tend to refer to them as a "cheap tart;" they'll do anything as long as you're paying <g>. But seriously, there are trade system designers who insist that their platforms contain little or no lag whatsoever---such as Mel Raiman of Precision Trading fame---though I'm not yet convinced of his claims either.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. Keep us informed as to your progress with the Edge if you would so kindly.

Ron
Florida

 

[DaveJB]

Yep,
I'm still undecided - one thing bothers me is that on the customer part of the site there are fully annotated example charts, and some of the signals shown don't look valid to me when applying the system rules. Until I'm happy that I understand how she is managing to get the signals shown, when the price is sometimes doing what I consider to be the opposite to what it's meant to do at signal time, I will remain undecided.
This could just be a question of interpretation - it would be much easier to explain if I were free to detail the signal components, which of course I am not. I'll therefore keep plugging away until satisfied one way or another. The 13:23 (approx) buy on the Dec 15 PM chart is an example of one I consider dubious, should any other customers with access wish to comment further.
Dave

 

[Babu]

13:23 trade

The 13:23 Dec 15 trade actually took place at 13:32 and was a totally legitimate trade. DaveJB you may not be measuring the price "points" properly, it was well within the allowance.

 

[ronfalcone]

which contract

The 13:23 Dec 15 trade actually took place at 13:32 and was a totally legitimate trade. DaveJB you may not be measuring the price "points" properly, it was well within the allowance.

Dave & Babu: are we referring to YM or Russel for the 15th?

 

[TraderAli]

OK Guys,

Its time to spill the beans out.. The Edge System, is it worth $600 ?

In my personal experience I have found that the Edge is nothing but a standard divergence system, however a few bits and bobs are used to make a chart look like a Christmas tree, is that clever ?

As experienced traders know this does not change what you can achieve using a standard MACD and RSI.. the theory is still the same, just look for a divergence in the price patern and enter the trade on a positive candle..

At first when I got my hands on the sytem I did not find it useful but reading the positive reviews on this thread got me curious to look deep into again.

I have tried to match the trades I saw in the past and the recent ones I see on the system sellers website with the exact settings but have not been able to match some or all of the trades yet once again.

Although I have tested this strategy on forex EUR/USD and EUR/JPY using 2min, 10min and hourly charts and did not find it useful, I cannot make any assumptions whether the system works better on the futures market.

Keeping in mind that Paulus and Babu are both using the system to trade futures, I would be interested if someone or any of you could post a few charts taking out the indicators with the exact entry and exit you have been able to trade using this system..

Guys, I know this would be a bit time consuming but the point here is that I did not find the system any different then the standard divergence concept.

Conclusion - Nothing spectacular.

I did not find the strategy anywhere close to 75% on forex. In order to let the trades run you would have to use large stops in the market. Using a sound money management you may be able to profit from it on forex and no you will not come out everyday with a profit in your pockets when used on forex. Hope this helps.

Merry Christmas and a Happy NewYear to everyone !

 

[ronfalcone]

stops

OK Guys,

In order to let the trades run you would have to use large stops in the market. Using a sound money management you may be able to profit from it on forex and no you will not come out everyday with a profit in your pockets when used on forex. Hope this helps.>

I understood her risk/reward on the Russel to be 10 ticks either way? 1:1 isn't the best r/r but it doesn't seem overly extravagant does it?

trader Ali: you say the system is simply a divergence system. Aren't they all? But the question is: are her trade postings synthetic or real? If they're real, then recipients of the course who aren't being as successfull are evidently doing something wrong. But if they're not real, then she's a total fraud correct?

Seems that there often significant 'divergences' between system originators and those who try to implement those systems. For example, there are many students of trading systems who simply can't "see" what others are seeing. And it's in this 'seeing' where I have the greatest skepticism and where trading courses, and hawkers of those courses lose my confidence. I say, show me PROOF in the form of documented, back-tested, non-curve fitted results, good, bad or indifferent. Don't show me charts entered after the fact---especially charts purporting to be honests by 'admitting' lost trades. This ain't proof and it ain't very good science.

Ron

 

[jsp326]

I did an informal backtest with the Edge on Forex 1 hour charts a few weeks ago. I just looked at charts--I'm not much of a coder. Anyway, the results were positive, but not spectacular. However, my trading of it in real time has always been around breakeven. It's easier to "see" perfect Edge setups in hindsight, and perhaps I missed some divergent setups during my backtest--though I tried to be objective and careful.

The most fruitful part of the exercise was when I compared the setups using a longer-term filter. Not surprisingly, the setups worked better when trading with the long-term trend. In fact, there were more net pips while only trading about half as much...

OK Guys,

Its time to spill the beans out.. The Edge System, is it worth $600 ?

In my personal experience I have found that the Edge is nothing but a standard divergence system, however a few bits and bobs are used to make a chart look like a Christmas tree, is that clever ?

As experienced traders know this does not change what you can achieve using a standard MACD and RSI.. the theory is still the same, just look for a divergence in the price patern and enter the trade on a positive candle..

At first when I got my hands on the sytem I did not find it useful but reading the positive reviews on this thread got me curious to look deep into again.

I have tried to match the trades I saw in the past and the recent ones I see on the system sellers website with the exact settings but have not been able to match some or all of the trades yet once again.

Although I have tested this strategy on forex EUR/USD and EUR/JPY using 2min, 10min and hourly charts and did not find it useful, I cannot make any assumptions whether the system works better on the futures market.

Keeping in mind that Paulus and Babu are both using the system to trade futures, I would be interested if someone or any of you could post a few charts taking out the indicators with the exact entry and exit you have been able to trade using this system..

Guys, I know this would be a bit time consuming but the point here is that I did not find the system any different then the standard divergence concept.

Conclusion - Nothing spectacular.

I did not find the strategy anywhere close to 75% on forex. In order to let the trades run you would have to use large stops in the market. Using a sound money management you may be able to profit from it on forex and no you will not come out everyday with a profit in your pockets when used on forex. Hope this helps.

Merry Christmas and a Happy NewYear to everyone !

 

[ronfalcone]

I did an informal backtest with the Edge on Forex 1 hour charts a few weeks ago. I just looked at charts--I'm not much of a coder. Anyway, the results were positive, but not spectacular. However, my trading of it in real time has always been around breakeven. It's easier to "see" perfect Edge setups in hindsight, and perhaps I missed some divergent setups during my backtest--though I tried to be objective and careful.

The most fruitful part of the exercise was when I compared the setups using a longer-term filter. Not surprisingly, the setups worked better when trading with the long-term trend. In fact, there were more net pips while only trading about half as much...

so trading with the trend yielded more positive results? This seems to be the malady affecting many systems; seems as though anyone can have a better shot trading with the trend. In fact, that doesn't seem to elicit much more inspiration than trading a vanilla fudge moving average system.

 

[TraderAli]

I understood her risk/reward on the Russel to be 10 ticks either way? 1:1 isn't the best r/r but it doesn't seem overly extravagant does it?

Seems that there often significant 'divergences' between system originators and those who try to implement those systems. For example, there are many students of trading systems who simply can't "see" what others are seeing. And it's in this 'seeing' where I have the greatest skepticism and where trading courses, and hawkers of those courses lose my confidence. I say, show me PROOF in the form of documented, back-tested, non-curve fitted results, good, bad or indifferent. Don't show me charts entered after the fact---especially charts purporting to be honests by 'admitting' lost trades. This ain't proof and it ain't very good science.

Ron

Ron,

I have not tested the strategy on Russel or the Mini Dow but I am assuming that it works better on the futures as most of the charts on the site and in the ebook are for YM and Rus.

If a trade cannot be spotted clearly on the chart at the time when it is happening then one is led to second guess and the return is poor trading as you make incorrect trades assuming that this maybe a setup..

One of the other things I find is that the trader who develops a strategy often does better then anyone trying to learn the same system..there are many reasons behind this, first the training of the eye, second the belief... then when you get experienced you get more comfortable trading the setups which cannot be clearly seen or explained in words or pictures to anyone trying to use that same system.

I am not saying that the system is not valid but I did not find it useful for someone led to believe to start trading sucessfully in the market using this methodolody by just reading the book.

Experience is the key..!

 

[TraderAli]

I am still interested to see the charts for the Dow and Russel with the exact entry and exit for the previous week with the number of trades won/lost....... anyone ?

I am not interested in the charts posted on the system sellers site but the actual signals anyone using the system has been able to trade.

 

[DaveJB]

Okay, thanks for that Babu,
you're quite right, even though it's annotated I'd not managed to get my head round the leeway she considers okay for a double top/bottom - to me that chart period is diverging in that the upward slope is at a lower rate than the indicators, it's still in the same direction (going flat for much of it after the initial rise) and that's what is throwing me. It's nothing like a double bottom in my view, but it does fit into the allowed variation - I'd probably have been okay if they'd coined a new term for it, but having spent 5 years or so programming chart pattern recognition it's rather contrary to all I hold dear <g>

Thanks for pointing me the right way, this will doubtless make watching the system a great deal easier.... I'll be more than happy to join the band of supporters should this be what I find.

Ron, the chart is the CME Russel emini I believe, code ER2H06 on tradestation chart, not something I trade or have traded so that's about as much as I can tell you about it. The charts are posted for the public minus the indicators etc and the one I'm referring to is the Dec 15 PM one which is included at
http://www.rightangletrading.com/new/more_charts.html


You'll see a blue 'buy' arrow on the chart between 1323 and 1333 on the chart .

 

[DaveJB]

One of the other things I find is that the trader who develops a strategy often does better then anyone trying to learn the same system..there are many reasons behind this, first the training of the eye, second the belief... then when you get experienced you get more comfortable trading the setups which cannot be clearly seen or explained in words or pictures to anyone trying to use that same system.

I think this is true, and holds for all kinds of things in TA, not just systems - to some people L2 is an open book, to others it's random numbers. I'm happy to accept some people are making this work, others aren't, while some of us are still in the middle - practise and a bit of help from those making it work can make quite a difference so thanks again to Babu for helping out on the chart question I posed.

Thanks to all concerned for keeping this civilised, as thess discussions often turn into slanging matches - perhaps if we can keep this going a few more weeks we'll be getting somewhere.... my own chart watching is going to be a bit curtailed next week, family and work commitments will be keeping me very busy, but I will be hoping to get enough chart time in to make a more valid contribution once life gets back to normal.
Merry Christmas!
Dave

 

[SOCRATES]

I think this is true, and holds for all kinds of things in TA, not just systems - to some people L2 is an open book, to others it's random numbers.
Dave

Yes, you are quite right in what you say. This is because of how different people percieve differntly.What is plainly obvious to a visual mathematician is a riddle to one who is not.

 

[ronfalcone]

chart watching

.... my own chart watching is going to be a bit curtailed next week, family and work commitments will be keeping me very busy, but I will be hoping to get enough chart time in to make a more valid contribution once life gets back to normal.
Merry Christmas!
Dave[/QUOTE]

one technique I've used, Dave, which admittedly is a bit primitive but has worked for me. When not home and available to obsess over charts all day (we traders LOVE charts don't we?), I open the chart in question, magnify it so that only the early day is showing, then scroll click by click to the right so as to unfold the chart's progress, all the while trying to discern where I might have considered a trade entry, exit, etc. It's not real time, of course, but at least acts as somewhat of a simulation to keep my sensory input sharp.

To Ali: no truer words were ever spoken (i.e., one's own experience is best). I guess that's why I've been stubbornly laboring on my own and usually reluctant to invest in programs (money is not really the issue). Though still interested in The Edge and keeping an open mind, I am still spending lots of research time with linear regression and Bollinger Bands in multi time frames. If I hit on something, I will let you know.

Toodles,
Ron

 

[fxmarkets]

[/QUOTE]one technique I've used, Dave, which admittedly is a bit primitive but has worked for me. When not home and available to obsess over charts all day (we traders LOVE charts don't we?), I open the chart in question, magnify it so that only the early day is showing, then scroll click by click to the right so as to unfold the chart's progress, all the while trying to discern where I might have considered a trade entry, exit, etc. It's not real time, of course, but at least acts as somewhat of a simulation to keep my sensory input sharp.

[/QUOTE]

hmm for myself I would look at the whole days events and think.. right the price has gone no higher here , whats going on there , no lower here whats going on there. Those are great places to of gone long/short . The best. Doing this day in day out , hour in hour out, focusing on 1 market has lead to what I term as being aware of hindsight in the making. Its helped.

 

[SOCRATES]

one technique I've used, Dave, which admittedly is a bit primitive but has worked for me. When not home and available to obsess over charts all day (we traders LOVE charts don't we?), I open the chart in question, magnify it so that only the early day is showing, then scroll click by click to the right so as to unfold the chart's progress, all the while trying to discern where I might have considered a trade entry, exit, etc. It's not real time, of course, but at least acts as somewhat of a simulation to keep my sensory input sharp.

[/QUOTE]hmm for myself I would look at the whole days events and think.. right the price has gone no higher here , whats going on there , no lower here whats going on there. Those are great places to of gone long/short . The best. Doing this day in day out , hour in hour out, focusing on 1 market has lead to what I term as being aware of hindsight in the making. Its helped.[/QUOTE]

That's right. That is the way to get the footprint. But additionally, ALL OF IT has to be retained as a mind picture in its entirety to which you can refer, be REMEMBERING all the highs and lows IN SEQUENCE so as to be able to RECALL them INSTANTLY and how you would have dealt with them, just like you REMEMBER all the detail on your favourite painting hanging on the wall. If you were to close your eyes, you could then IMAGINE EVERY DETAIL in it as a consequence of your familiarity with it, as if you were LOOKING AT IT in front of you. That is the key, MEMORY and MATHEMATICS, as Jesse Livermore said, and not stumbling mechanical recognition instead.

 

[DaveJB]

Time:Yes,
my problem is actually more like I have very limited time next week at all, I will certainly be watching for the Dow to reach 10,999 to mimic the FTSE as New Year hit prior the TMT crash <g> . Otherwise trading time will be severely curtailed and I tend to just stop if I think I won't be able to concentrate on it for at least a couple of hours.

Soc - fair enough point on the 'don't use systems' front, I find it useful though as you get frequent periods when the system obviously isn't going to fire, and I invariably then go back over the chart looking in detail at the candles. Fair enough, I might do this 100% of the time anyway, but wanting to see how this system works and performs isn't taking very much time up. The system probably occupies about 5% or less of the time, 95% is spent watching the candles and practising getting price chart analysis somewhere near right, so I feel it's time reasonably well spent.

I would defend systems as teaching transferable skills that are of use - watching higher timeframes whilst trading a lower one, how to lay your information out sensibly to minimise the effort taken to absorb it, deciding what information need be on view, these are all things I consider useful and I've no doubt some of the things I do when deciding what to put on my screens is down to some system I took nothing else from.

I suppose some flit butterfly like from idea to idea, and never settle down to work in earnest, which would of course be a disastrous way to go about it.

Ron - I've gone my own way most of the time I've been using TA. I fully identify with the 'money no object' bit, once over I'd have perhaps insisted that as I'd spent $500 on something then it MUST work, not these days <g> Stick with it.

 

[ronfalcone]

[But additionally, ALL OF IT has to be retained as a mind picture in its entirety to which you can refer, be REMEMBERING all the highs and lows IN SEQUENCE so as to be able to RECALL them INSTANTLY and how you would have dealt with them, just like you REMEMBER all the detail on your favourite painting hanging on the wall.>

understood. But there is a real and present danger to looking at whole entire charts after the fact and saying, right, I would have entered here, exited here, etc. The real laborious tedium and stress of watching price unfold for hours as opposed to quickly looking at a chart in hindisght is, in my humble opinion, why many traders fail. Your brain simply processes information much differently in real time than it does when looking at the entire completed picture. To use your example of a painting, it's quite easy to see the forest from the lake while looking at the painting as a completed product. But then, could you do the same if you were allowed only a view of one corner of the painting? The reality is, the brain tends to create patterns and logic often when there isn't any---any this occurs in proportion to the amount of time the brain has to deal with. That's why, quick glances of entire charts can be treacherous when---and I emphasize this point---when ONLY used to the exclusion of practicing in real time.