Terrorism????...Blame America!!!!

[Mr Flibble]

You have a poor view of humanity whereas I have a positive view. We'll have to agree to disagree. A human being without any outside influence and who is of sound mind and not under the influence of any intoxicants finds the very thought of killing another human being obscene and totally un-natural.

An uncivilised man who has no concept of right and wrong may think it acceptable to kill for material gain. Our society is truly sick if we think this is human nature.

 

[maiden22]

Terrorism? I blame terrorists.

 

[Atilla]

Terrorism? I blame terrorists.

Define terrorism first then you may be able to blame the terrorists.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...&start=21&hl=en&sa=N&gbv=2&ndsp=21&tbs=isch:1


Here is an extract from a participant...
I mean, that's not a terrorist — That's the man's home we killed
Joshua rejects the U.S. government line that the Iraqis fighting the occupation are terrorists.
"I'm thinking: What the hell?
I mean, that's not a terrorist.
That's the man's home we killed.
That's his son, that's the father, that's the mother, that's the sister.
Houses are destroyed.
Husbands are detained and wives don't even know where they're at.
I mean, them are pissed-off people, and they have a reason to be pissed off.
I would never wish this upon myself or my family, so why would I do it upon them?"

 

[maiden22]

Define terrorism first then you may be able to blame the terrorists.

It is not straightforward certainly. As a broad definition, I would say the deliberate targetting of civilian populations, with the aim of killing or intimidating, or the use of such populations against their will.

An example might be the deliberate and calculated targetting of Israeli civilians by Hamas for their rocket attacks. Another example might be the use by Hamas of Palestinian civilians as human shields, by using civilian centers and populations to hide their fighters and munitions factories.

An example might not be the recent Israeli attacks, where they went to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties, as described by a high ranking British officer.

Of course, one might broaden the definition to include actions by regular armies that have a high probability of unintentionaly causing significant loss of property and human life. I would not call this terrorism, as I am not lazy or hysterical and do not wish to hasten the impoversihment of the English language. However, such things must aways be a consideration, and could cause an otherwise legitimate war or action to become an act of evil.

 

[Pat494]

The taleban must be quite mad.
All they have to do is stop fighting the coalition for a few months so the soldiers are withdrawn and then they take over. Obviously the present situation suits the top taleban living it up in Pakistan. Bin Laden has only just moved out of his walled manor house plus wifes and about 70 retainers. Been there for years apparently according to a piece on telly. Their supporters/apoligists will no doubt say its all a CIA plot or some such rubbish. The usual bearded unwashed suspects from the old Cold War days probably.

 

[Atilla]

It is not straightforward certainly. As a broad definition, I would say the deliberate targetting of civilian populations, with the aim of killing or intimidating, or the use of such populations against their will.

An example might be the deliberate and calculated targetting of Israeli civilians by Hamas for their rocket attacks. Another example might be the use by Hamas of Palestinian civilians as human shields, by using civilian centers and populations to hide their fighters and munitions factories.

An example might not be the recent Israeli attacks, where they went to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties, as described by a high ranking British officer.

Of course, one might broaden the definition to include actions by regular armies that have a high probability of unintentionaly causing significant loss of property and human life. I would not call this terrorism, as I am not lazy or hysterical and do not wish to hasten the impoversihment of the English language. However, such things must aways be a consideration, and could cause an otherwise legitimate war or action to become an act of evil.

Endorsing Gaza war report, UN Human Rights Council condemns Israel

Of the 1000+ people killed in that operation approx 1/3rd of those were children. Another equal proportion were women. Perhaps 250 were fighters killed in the first two days.

Illegal weapons were also used in that operation. Number of people including children burnt to death because of Israel's indiscriminate use of these illegal weapons in civilian areas.

In contrast 3 Israeli civilians and 10 soldiers were killed.

What you describe has caused more damage to Israel recently than pretty much many other disproportionate acts of war against civilian popullations. State of Israel is in denial.

You have a very limited narrow view of terrorism if I may say so.

 

[maiden22]

That UN report is a complete joke, as indeed is the UN's attitude to Israel in general. Come to think of it, as is the UN full stop.

 

[maiden22]

One thing I will say for the UN - thet take the p1ss with style. The following is a link to a website of the Human Rights council, showing current members and scheduled members for the next few years.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/year0610.htm

Among the noted exponents of human rights considered worthy of a seat are:

Angola
Egypt
Indonesia
Madagascar
South Africa
Burkina Faso
Ghana
Pakistan
Zambia
Bangladesh
Cameroon
China
Cuba
Jordan
Kyrgyzstan
Nigeria
Russian Federation
Saudi Arabia
Senegal

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[maiden22]

Colonel Richard Kemp, the British officer I referred to above, stated the following to the UN Human Rights council in response to the Goldstone farce:

[From my] "knowledge of the IDF and from the extent to which I have been following the current operation, I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza."

He also stated that Hamas discarded their uniforms once fighting began and deployed women and children as suicide attackers. He further stated that during the Gaza War "women and children are trained and equipped to fight, collect intelligence and ferry arms and ammunition between battles".

Some more on Goldstone here:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5322971/the-goldstone-showtrial.thtml

and here:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5334541/the-moral-inversion-of-richard-goldstone.thtml

 

[Pat494]

It's a great pity there isn't a decent educational system in certain countries. Not only would the children have better opportunities in life but also they could rout out the extremist elements and not let ageing old extremists like Bin Laden fill their heads with pathological thoughts and pathetic promises of 72 virgins in the after life.

No wonder the Taleban bomb schools

 

[maiden22]

It's a great pity there isn't a decent educational system in certain countries. Not only would the children have better opportunities in life but also they could rout out the extremist elements and not let ageing old extremists like Bin Laden fill their heads with pathological thoughts and pathetic promises of 72 virgins in the after life.

No wonder the Taleban bomb schools

Very true, although we should start by trying to get a decent education system in this country first. Compared to us, the Taleban are amateurs.

So you bomb a school? Just build another one. British education secretaries make sure that the damage they do is permanent. Telban bombs can't compete with the comprehensive system when it comes to ruining life chances and spreading ignorance.

 

[Pat494]

As we are discussing education I was amazed the other day to get the old school mag which states that the Chinese are so impressed with that place they are building a replica in China.
The mind boggles. It used to be a such a dump !!

 

[gamma]

72 virgins in the after life.

This statement just opens up a load of questions for me.
I just wonder if there are any Taliban traders about who could answer a few questions for me.

If male suicide bombers get 72 virgins what do female suicide suicide bombers get?
72 inexperienced male virgins!!
(Not much of a reward for the poor females eh!)
And what if you are a virgin female bomber, Will you be offered up as a reward to the male bombers?

Does heaven not get a bit overpopulated with all these virgins?

And what happens to the virgins once they are de-flowered?
Are they recycled?
And why would anyone want an inexperienced virgin anyway?

 

[Mr Flibble]

Wow so much ignorance where should I start? Cmon guys do I even have to say anything here? Maiden are you speaking from a position of bias? You keep mentioning Hamas. Just forget it. Israel as a nation was set up with the use of terrorism is that true or false?

I'm a human being and so are you and so are muslims, christians and jews. So much hate perhaps its time to think does this hatred actually help us or does it crush our own souls.

The path you guys are heading down is a path that leads to dehumanisation of others. Its the oldest trick in the book to get mankind to kill one another. The moment we realise we are all humans that will cease.

As a muslim I return you harsh words with peace. I want the best for all of you. I have no hatred in my heart.

 

[maiden22]

Wow so much ignorance where should I start? Cmon guys do I even have to say anything here? Maiden are you speaking from a position of bias? You keep mentioning Hamas. Just forget it. Israel as a nation was set up with the use of terrorism is that true or false?

That is false. It was set up in accordance with international law as part of the British obligation when they took on the British Manadate of Palestine, which expressly required that a national home for the Jewish people be established, under the auspices of the League of Nations.

The British eventually got round to doing what they were supposed to after record-breaking genocide, the imposition of arbitrary immigration limits that led to further deaths, and giving away most of the Mandate territory to form arab states such as Transjordan (Jordan).

Isreal has been under constant seige since the day of its inception. Hamas is a terror group that is openly committed to the destruction of both Israel and the Jews. A couple of quotes from the horse's mouth:

"[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel]."
(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz)

"We do not recognize the Israeli enemy, nor his right to be our neighbor, nor to stay (on the land), nor his ownership of any inch of land.... We are interested in restoring our full rights to return all the people of Palestine to the land of Palestine. Our principles are clear: Palestine is a land of Waqf (Islamic trust), which can not be given up."
(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader and candidate to the Palestinian legislative council, Palestinian TV, January 17, 2006, Newsday)

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."
(Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post)

And on and on.

You may say that their is justice in the Palestinian cause, that atrocities have been committed by both sides, and so on. But Israel is not a deliberate purveyor of terror, unlike Hamas, which actively aims to murder (or kill, if you prefer) Jews, and is prepared to hide its military operations behind the women and children of its own people.

Again, you may argue if you wish that such actions are justified. This does not change what these acts are.

 

[Pat494]

As a muslim I return you harsh words with peace. I want the best for all of you. I have no hatred in my heart.

Nice words Sir !!

You would think the Jews might have learnt something while they were being persecuted since the time of Moses. But no it seems not. They take other people's land and now intend to build settlements on it. They treat their own minority with little regard to human rights. Not that Hamas and Fatah are saints. They have not been and probably never will be.
And so the cycle of violence continues until one lot are wiped out I suppose !!
The Jewish lobbies in UK and US pushed them into Iraq war. Took out Israel's biggest threat. Who got paid off for that may I ask !!

 

[maiden22]

I'm a human being and so are you and so are muslims, christians and jews. So much hate perhaps its time to think does this hatred actually help us or does it crush our own souls.

I agree entirely. Do you think that the people I have quoted above agree?

As a muslim I return you harsh words with peace. I want the best for all of you. I have no hatred in my heart.

As do I, although sadly there are many who do not want the best for their fellow men.

Please point to my harsh words - if I have said anything that is untrue, I will gladly retract it. By the way, I fully recognise that the Israelis have been guilty of both wicked and foolish actions, as is inevitable in any conflict.

You may be a peaceful and reasonable person, as may I - most people are. However, there are many who are not. Unfortunately, thse who are often found directing the conflicts in the world, both in the Middle East and elsewhere.

 

[Pat494]

The USA is too biased towards Israel to be an honest broker. Because of the Jewish lobby.

Their support should have only been offered conditionally on Israel behaving.

At last an American President has dared to express disgust at Israel's worst actions.

 

[maiden22]

At last an American President has dared to express disgust at Israel's worst actions.

The peanut farmer beat him to it.

 

[Mr Flibble]

You may be a peaceful and reasonable person, as may I - most people are. However, there are many who are not. Unfortunately, thse who are often found directing the conflicts in the world, both in the Middle East and elsewhere.

I state who I am and what my bias is now will you be honest and state yours?

And far from it your words are anti semitic and hostile. The Palestinians are a semitic people just remember that. You know full well the truth of these matters yet you incite others towards hostility on this forum. You have no case and you know it.

The terrorist actions I speak of were first put into action against the Britosh troops who had let the Jews into Palestin en masse with the Balfour declaration. From a tiny handful of Jews to millions upon millions of people who had no claim to the land. Most were Jewish converts of European descent. The Jews only use religious grounds for their return to those lands and even that is incorrect. They are not entitled to these lands until your messiah returns.

Even now Israel continues to build new settlements. Your lobby is powerful however it will take more than money to silence the truth. Notice I state your.