Terrorism????...Blame America!!!!

[Atilla]

But do the bees sting themselves? All death in war is regrettable, especially when estimated to be such a large number. I'm not debating the rights or wrongs of the coalitions actions, what I'm saying is that i just don't think the US should bare full responsibility for terrorism in and out of Iraq. Don't you think a suicide bomber who blows himself up in the middle of a market intentionally killing 50+ innocent people in one go bares sole and full responsibility for his actions?

I thought this was a constructive debate, it's regrettable you don't think so.

Do you sincerely believe the sole aim of the terrorists is to kill innocent civilians?

Otherwise why doesn't he blow up civilians in the middle of a village?

Have you not heard what their demands are?

Not saying they are right but they have objectives and aims. They go about in a different manner to achieving them.

You are like a scratched record on "Yes but US don't kill innocent civilians. Not intentionally anyway?" Yes US does kill innocent civilians. The level of cover up is undeniable in Iraq.

How about the Italian riddled with bullets whilst rescuing people?

How about Iraqis travelling in their car for driving at 30 km/h being riddled with bullets.

How about orders given to soldiers to shoot if in doubt because it doesn't look good on Bushes record to see US soldier counts rising.

Also, those figures you quoted an independent study found that two thirds were due to military action and one third of deaths due to insurgents (allegedly).

All the dead bodies in 20s and 40s and 60s that have been found with hands tied and executed? Do you seriously believe they are all the work of insurgents and al qaida. Instead of having the embarrasment of Abu Graib, US and Kurds, question torture and then merely execute suspects mostly Sunni and Al-Qadr's men for not complying with the puppet regime.

Do you seriously believe the US is a little angel?

For the 600,000 dead there are 2 million refugees and there are literally millions of people with lost mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and cousins. The tragedy is beyond any stats.

It will take years to rebuild Iraq.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al-Qaida.

What the Fucuk is US doing in Iraq?

If no blame is to be proportioned to US, no accountability what so ever. In your informed opinion how would you go about proportioning this accountability of the events, the deaths and the suffering?

Do you seriously believe the US went into to liberate Iraq and bring about democracry and goodness to all those people, in response to 9/11? If so why Iraq and not any other country?

Wouldn't it been wiser to bring democracry to Saudi Arabia or Kuwait first where there is no democracry and they are a friendly bunch towards the Americans.

Your honest opinion from the depths of your mind and heart placing your self in their existance would be appreciated.

 

[JTrader]

.

 

[wasp]

Whilst I'm here

......

 

[Atilla]

Oh, come on! The Red Indians and the Aztecs, Mayas, Esqimos and Australian aborigines are history. Now we are being flooded with immigrants and, eventually, the white race will merge with the asiatics through reproduction and we will be history, too.

This is because a minority people are dominated by the majority. The same started to happen in Yugoslavia, Nazi Germany, Africa with genicide.

This has, always, happened and it will happen in Iraq. The same thing happens when city people move to a pleasant country village and take the place over, moving into the council, etc. It is change and is a continuous process.

Split

Why do we have domestic and International laws against it then?

 

[chump]

"How about the Italian riddled with bullets whilst rescuing people?".....this is a misconception...the guy was a chef...had just served up the most diabolical spag bol...and the customers voted with their Uzis.

 

[Atilla]

how this turned into an issue with the slave trade i have no idea, the slave trade started long before the US was formed in the 15th century.

But on a Industrial, managed and calculated scale of slave trade there is NO parallel

This is false. how do reconcile black populations in Brazil and the west indies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade#African_versus_European_slavery

some light reading for you.

If you want to debate the slave trade i suggest you start a thread.

i would say for the purpose of this arguement anything before 1950 should be discounted

I think it came about when you brought Christianity and terror into the same sentence. You seem to - like Uncle Sam determine all the rules the game should be played by. Anyway, to me the moral of the story is there are many ways of terrorising people, not just by blowing them up. The journey to US from Africa I'm sure must have been a terrorising experience on those sailing ships, but we'll leave it at that as this kind of Christian white supremist terror doesn't fit in with your arguement.

Moving on, to your thread of blame, US went into Iraq based on:

1. Weapons of mass destruction
2. Links with Al-Qaida

Neither of which have been found to be true by US investigative bodies.

So when someone does something wrong leading to such destruction, how do you think this scenario should be dealt with and what can the US do to put things right? Compensation in billions?

Why is the US still trying to setup the sale of Iraqi oil through Northern Iraq with the Kurds help and claiming 70% of proceeds when it is the easiest to extract with least costs.

If you reply but US don't kill innocent civilians, I'll understand where you are coming from?

 

[fibonelli]

Parallels between the Third Reich and the Bush regime:

1. Hitler's book Mein Kampf (My Struggle) , written in 1925 while he was in jail for an attempted coup (putsch), explicitly described his goals for world domination, stealing Russia for German expansion, and mass murdering Jews with poison gas. It was dismissed as the ravings of a lunatic by most observers.
The Project for a New American Century, a think tank comprising most of the "neo-conservatives" in key leadership positions in the Bush / Cheney regime, published a report in September, 2000 titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses." This report, which was endorsed by Cheney, Jeb Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the gang, predicted that their goals of world domination would be difficult unless there was a "new Pearl Harbor." The PNAC report also noted "the need for a substantial American force presence in the [Persian] Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein" ..., and genetically engineered biological weapons "may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool."
This PNAC report is the "Mein Kampf" for World War IV.

2. Hitler rose to power under the veneer of legality, ensuring that each tiny step toward dictatorship seemed legitimate.
The Bush regime appeared (to many) to have been legitimately elected, if you didn't look too closely at the deliberate disenfranchisements of Democrats in Florida. This sneaky cloaking to steps toward dictatorship in the guise of legality is probably the strongest parallel between the tactics of the Nazis and the tactics of the Bush regime.

3. Reichstag Fire (February 27, 1933) and the refusal of most Germans to question the official story.
September 11, 2001 and the refusal of most Americans to question the official story.

4. Enabling Act passed after Reichstag Fire to temporarily suspend civil liberties to deal with the terrorist threat posed by Communists. The temporary emergency lasted until Germany was in ruins in 1945.
USA Patriot Act passed shortly after 9/11 to temporarily suspend civil liberties to deal with the terrorist threat posted by Islamic fundamentalists. The proposed sequel to Patriot Act is closer to the Enabling Act in content, but public outcry kept it from being enacted as a complete act. If there is another 9/11 type incident, Patriot II is more likely to be passed. Among other provisions, it would remove citizenship from convicted terrorists, similar to the removal of German citizenship of German Jews, a key "legal" step toward their expulsion to concentration and death camps.

5. Dachau (earliest internment camp, which incarcerated political opponents, it was not a "death camp," at least in early days).
Guantanamo indefinite detention camp, built by Haliburton, President Cheney's company.

6. Propaganda ministry.
Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, etc.

7. Kristallnacht (1938), a deliberate effort to destroy Jewish history in Germany.
Destruction of Iraqi museums (2003), which destroyed much ancient history, especially relics that were pre-Islamic, part of the cultural heritage of humanity.

8. Invasion of Czechoslovakia, aggression that the other "great powers" condemned but did nothing to stop.
Invasion of Iraq using the excuse that Iraq had attacked, or was about to attack US (2003).

9. Excuse that Poland was attacking Germany and therefore must be counter-attacked in self-defense (1939).
US attack on Iran, a country that recently made large business deals with China, India and Germany - expanding the Iraq war to Iran could trigger a much larger conflict.

10. Reluctance of the opposition to organize to restore democracy, several efforts were made to topple the dictator but all were half-hearted, poorly organized and none (obviously) succeeded.
The establishment opposition to Bush, Cheney and the other gangsters involved in the crimes of 9/11 and Iraq has been weak and ineffective. Few Democratic leaders were willing to publicly question the vote fraud of 2004 despite overwhelming evidence that the election was rigged in many states (not only Ohio). While there has been violence directed against some opposition politicians (Paul Wellstone, John Kennedy, etc), the danger in the US for dissidents is miniscule compared with Nazi Germany and there is much more freedom of speech and movement and association.

http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html

 

[JTrader]

.

 

[dcraig1]

If the Americans were deliberately targetting Iraqi civilians as a matter of policy (as you imply), the death toll would be far, far higher.

Correct, the US does not as an overriding policy target civilians in Iraq in the same way that the Allied carpet bombing of German and Japanese cities did in World War II. But Iraq is an occupied country. Germany did not engage in the carpet bombing of occupied France either despite the activities of the French resistance.

But cases of deliberate targetting of civilians have certainly happened and will continue to happen. Furthermore US military doctrine sets low casualties for its own forces as an absolute priority over just about everything else including civilian casualties. Hence the constant use of heavy weapons and aerial bombardment in urban areas. Witness the destruction of Fallujah. It is disingenuous to say that this does not target civilians as the net outcome is no different in any respect. This trade off of us military casualties for Iraqi civilian casualties might allow the current administration in Washington to stagger on for a bit longer, but it surely means that the US has already lost the political battle in Iraq. It is Vietnamisation Mark II.

Most attacks in Iraq are against US forces. The overriding objective of the Iraqi resistance is the expulsion of foreign occupiers, not blowing up civilians. I suspect that the great majority of the deliberate car bombings of civilians are due to the foreign Jihadis and Al queda. But who can tell for sure. The situation is very complex, but it is abundantly clear that the majority of Iraqis want the US out and the US is occupying the country by application of military force, and ultimately it doesn't give a fig about the number of civilian casualties this entails. Now where is the moral superiority in this ?

 

[JTrader]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/070807_timeline_to_tyranny.htm

The Timeline to Tyranny

 

[fibonelli]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/070807_timeline_to_tyranny.htm

Martial Law Presidential Decision Directive 51
New legislation signed on May 9, 2007, declares that in the event of a "catastrophic event", the President can take total control over the government and the country, bypassing all other levels of government at the state, federal, local, territorial and tribal levels, and thus ensuring total unprecedented dictatorial power.
Watch out for another false flag terror event.

Destruction of the Dollar
Former World Bank Vice President, Chief Economist and Nobel Prize winner Joseph Stiglitz has predicted a global economic crash within 24 months - unless the current downturn is successfully managed. Asked if the situation was being properly handled Stiglitz emphatically responded "no,".

Harvard MBA graduate speaks about Cramer's emotional outburst over Fed inaction and the parallels to the same Fed inaction in the 1930s which led to the economic depression.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS0ioB2G_bU

 

[JTrader]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0664231179/thewisdomfund

Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action (Paperback)

Book Description
Probing disturbing questions that beg for a response from the Christian community, distinguished scholar of religion and popular writer David Ray Griffin provides a hard-hitting analysis of the official accounts of the events of September 11, 2001. A tireless investigator, Griffin has sorted through enormous amounts of government and independent data and brought to the surface some very unsettling inconsistencies about what really happened. In this, his latest book, he analyzes the evidence about 9/11 and then explores a distinctively Christian perspective on these issues, taking seriously what we know about Jesus’ life, death, and teachings. Drawing a parallel between the Roman Empire of antiquity and the American Empire of today, he applies Jesus’ teachings to the current political administration, and he explores how Christian churches, as a community intending to be an incarnation of the divine, can and should respond.

From the Publisher
"WARNING: If, like most Americans calling themselves Christian, you prefer the comfort of acquiescing to the official version of 9/11 and the imperial wars it facilitated, DROP THIS BOOK NOW. But if you are open to the grace of honest inquiry and the risk of following the historical Jesus in confronting the evils of empire, this rigorously argued book is a MUST READ."

—Ray McGovern, CIA veteran analyst now with Tell the Word, a project of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour, Washington, D.C.

"David Griffin has previously made the case for the Bush administration’s complicity in 9/11 and the cover-up of this evidence by the 9/11 Commission. Here, in this important book, he puts these shocking realities in the context of Christian theology and the challenge to the churches. In a profound exploration of the nature and history of the demonic, Griffin suggests that American empire is a culmination of human demonic alienation from God."

—Rosemary Radford Ruether, emeritus scholar, Claremont Graduate University and Claremont School of Theology

"Do American Christians want the United States to act like the New Rome, invading other countries to impose its imperial rule and its control of other peoples’ resources? That is just what the U.S. is doing, increasingly so since 9/11, explains David Griffin. In this gripping summary of evidence for the truth behind 9/11 and the 9/11 Commission report, Griffin makes a compelling case that the imperial practices of the American government have become a destructive force in the world. And he clarifies the biblical and theological basis for Christians to challenge the resurgent American imperialism that often claims divine blessing on its destructive actions."

—Richard A. Horsley, Distinguished Professor of Liberal Arts and the Study of Religion, University of Massachusetts, and author of Jesus and Empire: The Kingdom of God and the New World Disorder

"Compelling reading. Here is a remarkably thorough presentation of facts regarding 9/11 events. Professor Griffin sets the events of 9/11 in a historical, religious, and philosophical context that is most enlightening. Although this context is also somewhat chilling, he holds out hope in his discussion of where we can go from here. I most highly recommend this book!"

—Steven E. Jones, Professor of Physics, Brigham Young University

 

[Mayfly]

Speaking of books, my money would be on this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Uncouth-Nation-Europe-Dislikes-America/dp/0691122873

Here's one of the reviews to help you on your way: "A brilliant analysis of the ignorance and hypocrisy that underlies the fashionable anti-Americanism of so many in Europe. Making massive generalisations about Americans is a form of licensed racism that would be considered totally unacceptable if applied to other peoples. This book historically locates anti-Americanism deep within the insecurity and snobbery of a troubled Europe, and shows how it is being harnessed by the European elites to force through their own vision of a United States of Europe. It's written in a lively and non-academic style as well. Give it to your left wing friends to wake some of them up."

Don't you just love that! Enjoy?

Cheers

Mayfly

 

[Splitlink]

I hadn't thought of that argument, Not all socialists are anti-American, though.

The Anti-American Obsession: Its Functioning, Its Causes, Its Inconsequentialness/La obsesión antiamericana (2003) ISBN 1893554856 by Jean-François Revel

Split

 

[Atilla]

Speaking of books, my money would be on this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Uncouth-Nation-Europe-Dislikes-America/dp/0691122873

Here's one of the reviews to help you on your way: "A brilliant analysis of the ignorance and hypocrisy that underlies the fashionable anti-Americanism of so many in Europe. That's funny. Making massive generalisations about Americans is a form of licensed racism that would be considered totally unacceptable if applied to other peoples. Calling other peoples makes the thought racist doesn't. What's wrong with equality of mankind?

This book historically locates anti-Americanism deep within the insecurity and snobbery of a troubled Europe That sounds like Rumsfeld talking about the old Europe, and shows how it is being harnessed by the European elites to force through their own vision of a United States of Europe. Hey if America can force it's vision of democracy at gunpoint then European elites can force their vision of a USE. It's written in a lively and non-academic style as well. Give it to your left wing friends to wake some of them up."

Don't you just love that! Enjoy?

Cheers

Mayfly

I think I rather stick my right in-growing toe in to my left good reading eye than read this snotty ignorent book. :idea:

 

[Splitlink]

I think I rather stick my right in-growing toe in to my left good reading eye than read this snotty ignorent book. :idea:

Atilla,

You are talking like a childish radical.

Split

 

[dcraig1]

Atilla,

You are talking like a childish radical.

Split

Not at all. He is affording this garbage the respect it deserves. The suggestion that outrage at US foreign policy arises from some European sense of cultural superiority is pure tripe. The fact the rest of the world takes a dim view of the US under the neocons should lay this one to rest.

 

[Atilla]

Atilla,

You are talking like a childish radical.

Split

Why do you say childish and radical?

I presented a similarly written lively and non-academic reply but merely reversed some words.

Merely presenting an opposing view with tongue and cheek.

Doesn't your reply portray snobbery putting a reply down to a childish level?

I agree with DCraigs reply there is a global rejection of US foreign policy and the US is fast losing it's allies.

Yes I'm sure this is due to the media ramblings along the lines of "The ignorent hypocrits don't like our way of life and civilised democracy!"

Yeah right. Pull the other one it has bells on!

 

[Mayfly]

I think I rather stick my right in-growing toe in to my left good reading eye than read this snotty ignorent book.

It's not a question of left or right in the way you seem to understand it, it's simply a question of quality of thought. No one doubts Norman Geras' left wing credentials - he's a Marxist - and professor emeritus in politics at the University of Manchester. (He's also a compatriot of DCraig, BTW). These guys are not exactly gun totting neocons, are they: http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2007/08/writers-choice-.html and http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/norman_geras/

Food for thought, maybe?

Cheers

Mayfly

 

[Splitlink]

Why do you say childish and radical?

I presented a similarly written lively and non-academic reply but merely reversed some words.

Merely presenting an opposing view with tongue and cheek.

Doesn't your reply portray snobbery putting a reply down to a childish level?

I agree with DCraigs reply there is a global rejection of US foreign policy and the US is fast losing it's allies.

Yes I'm sure this is due to the media ramblings along the lines of "The ignorent hypocrits don't like our way of life and civilised democracy!"

Yeah right. Pull the other one it has bells on!

When you wrote that post pinpointing oil as the US reason for being in Iraq. You were right. The Israel/Palestine problem is a different problem? Well, that's an opinion.

My take of this thread is that most of anti-American posts are so aggressive and, especially on your part, follow the same, beating drum, dogmatism that brooks no argument from anyone and inserts a degree of patronisation towards the person addressed.

I, personally, am, and always have been, pro-American. That does not mean to say that everything they do is correct. The Americans, themselves, are strongly divided on key issues, but go to Iran and tell the government it's full of crap and you'll end up gaol and, if you are lucky, that is all that will happen to you.

Its a way of life. You accept the differences, or you don't. I know where I want to be. I'm glad I'm in the West and so are most of the immigrants who are living with us, too. But the West is only the way it is, because of America. There is no doubt about that. A Frenchman is a Frenchman and a Britisher is British because America has defended us in the past. Part of the price is that some of the American culture has rubbed off on us. Well, I can live with that.

These will be my last words on this matter because, frankly, I believe, as Mayfly's quote suggested, that there is a form of racialism in the rest of the world that does not take into consideration the good that America has done and it has become the done thing to despise them.

Split