Mike Baghdady - should I take a course or not?

[Bint_Crusher]

what would be great is that if peoples ip addresses were displayed.. that way we can see how many aliases all these chumps on this site have!! theres a good idea for you mr trade2win!

I think you'll find that IP in IP security can fool this real easy. Its a tactic I sometimes use when I get someones IP address verified over a number of occasions, I replicate/imitate it and then send it back to them along with the message "if you wanna fork with me I will link this address to illegal sites along with your user name. Most people have something to hide so it works every time.:smart::smart:

 

[pipsplease]

What a story unfolding!!!
Like many on here I am waiting to hear Mr Baghdadys official spokesman (was never politically correct) give the viewers and particularly The Leopard a more substantial response to the 11 questions posed.
Me thinks that if Mr Bagdady and Training Traders think that this will now gently drift into the sunset they could be greatly mistaken.

 

[pipsplease]

It seems that recently Mr Baghdadys former accountants took him and Spyglass Trading Solutions to court over unpaid invoices. Don't know what the outcome was but surely someone can find out and let us know. Bailiffs and court cases, makes you wonder, although Matt at Training Traders has denied that Bailiffs were ever involved - so that must be true.

 

[Digbyarbuthnot]

It seems that recently Mr Baghdadys former accountants took him and Spyglass Trading Solutions to court over unpaid invoices. Don't know what the outcome was but surely someone can find out and let us know. Bailiffs and court cases, makes you wonder, although Matt at Training Traders has denied that Bailiffs were ever involved - so that must be true.

Amazing isn't it that people take such a (self-proclaimed) successful trader and businessman to court for not paying invoices? Maybe he couldn't pay all the company bills because, having refused to pay the accountant he had no one in his accounts department to pay the bills on his behalf?!

Hands up Mike Baghdady does NOT owe you any money!!

 

[The Leopard]

It is no secret that I am one of the biggest and most vocal supporters on T2W of Mr Baghdady and his various companies. When I initially gathered together the questions raised by other members it was in expectation of a full and exonerative response from Mr Baghdady (via his official spokesman). I confess I had already determined to purchase two of his courses (Day and Long Term Trading), and would have advised anyone to do the same, for two reasons.

First, the cost. These two courses can be obtained for only £10,200 - a paltry sum when one considers that one will have access to the expertise of so distinguished a personage as Mr Baghdady. Second, the numerous testimonials posted which praised the tutoring of Mr Baghdady (some of these have sadly been deleted). These testimonials were particularly impressive since they contained almost no substance and consisted chiefly of unsupported opinion, and I like most people place a high value on a total lack of evidence when evaluating such things. The nature of the posters also impressed me. They seemed mostly to be people who had signed up very recently and had one or two posts at the most. I feel this lends weight and credibility to their opinions, and dispels any concern about their motives.

The fact that many of these posters apparently used the same computer to post their opinions seems to have aroused suspicion in the hearts of some forum members. To me it merely indicates an admirable concern for the environment - they are so concerned with the well-being of our planet and have such a wish to conserve its precious resources they have taken to sharing computer equipment.

Sadly, in light of the official response from Training Traders, my opinion has altered. I will no longer be purchasing their courses, nor would I recommend them to anyone (should anyone ask me for an opinion). In the next few posts I will set out my reasons for the change.

 

[The Leopard]

The official response posted by Malcolm Steel, whilst excellent in every respect and absolutely adequate, is sadly extremely poor and completely inadequate. It contains sins both of commission and omission. Taking the latter first, the official response inexplicably entirely fails to address any of the following points:

1. The absence of any trading income revealed in court documents posted on this site. This is extraordinary given Mr Baghdady's claimed status as a millionaire trader.

2. The question of whether bailiffs did or did not make repeated visits to Training Traders seeking to recover monies owed.

3. Whether or not Training Traders or Mr Baghdady was placed on a media blacklist for non-payment of monies owed.

4. Whether "Joe" (possibly Joe Tuckey) is in fact an institutional trader, and if so which institutions he has traded for, in what capacity and with what success.

5. The strange claims about crashes and so on raised in Mr Steel's previous posts.

6. The claims about "recent volatility" made by another supporter of Training Traders.

7. The claim made that Mr Baghdady is the world's "foremost expert".

I find it extraordinary that no attempt was made to address these issues (particularly the one relating to the apparent absence of trading income) and this would on its own be enough to put me off purchasing training. Alas! This is only the beginning.

 

[The Leopard]

Mr Steel does address some of the points raised - after a fashion. Sadly, this has not been done in a way likely to silence his critics. First,

"Requests for personal or company financial data to be posted on an online forum are simply ridiculous especially since we are a privately held company with responsibility primarily to our clients, employees and shareholders. No-one in their right mind would post such data on an open website with anonymous members. Also the request for our clients contact details is equally ridiculous, as this is proprietary information and rival companies would welcome this information."

You were asked to confirm that the list of clients is genuine, that the services you provided were relevant to the use of their names in promoting your services (i.e. that the services you provided were training services) and that you had their permission to use their names for the purposes of promotion. You have entirely failed to answer these questions, and there is nothing in the relevant section of your post that is relevant. How, for example, would it profit your rivals to know that you had provided trading training to the companies named, and that you had their permission to use their names for the purposes of promotion?

 

[The Leopard]

Mr Steel does address some of the points raised - after a fashion. Sadly, this has not been done in a way likely to silence his critics. Second:

"Chapter 11.
In 1997 Mr Baghdady sued his broker for the wrongful liquidation of his account as a result of erroneous entries in his account. After 12 years of Mr Baghdady pursuing the litigation and despite the broker admitting to his mistakes in court, the court found for the broker as there was no malice. In mid 2010 Mr Baghdady was ordered to pay the brokers costs and legal fees. Mr Baghdady filed for the Chapter 11 in order to protect his assets and negotiate a financial settlement with the broker (standard practice in the US). This case was dismissed in its entirety shortly after filing, as the broker and Mr Baghday agreed to settle their differences to their mutual benefit. This issue no longer exists and is history. Please see attached document."

As already noted, you have failed to address the main issue arising from this episode, namely the apparent absence of any trading income. But your post also contains some disturbing comments. You state that the court found for the broker because "there was no malice". I would suggest that a court normally finds for one side because their case is proven. Perhaps the absence of malice was sufficient in this case however.

You also speak of "mutual benefit". As far as I am aware people rarely take legal action for mutual benefit, having a rather keener eye on their own benefit, and but scant regard for the benefit of the party they are taking action against. The facts of the case are that the court found in favour of the broker and ordered Mr Baghdady to pay substantial sums of money to it.

 

[The Leopard]

Mr Steel does address some of the points raised - after a fashion. Sadly, this has not been done in a way likely to silence his critics. Third:

"“World of Trading” live trading champion.
Mr. Baghdady was invited to live trade against 6 other bankers and institutional traders at the “World of Trading” live trading event in Frankfurt in 2009. Mr Baghdady traded live on a stage for several hours in front of 1000 viewers and won the “World of Trading” live trading competition in 2009."

I understand that it is alleged that Mr Baghdady used to style himself "World Trading Champion", although to his credit he has now ceased to do so (for what reason we can only speculate). Nonetheless, I believe that the claim is still misleading and you should consider using it less prominently, even in its amended and more accurate form. Winning a trading contest in the evening that lasted three hours against a few other contestants is not, in my opinion, a very impressive thing. This is only opinion of course.

 

[The Leopard]

Mr Steel does address some of the points raised - after a fashion. Sadly, this has not been done in a way likely to silence his critics. Fourth:

"Mr Tuckey.
Mr Tuckey operated, and was a director of, a fund called Alpine Capital for 5 years. Through pure conjecture, one particular forum member has assumed that this fund did not exist simply because they could not find a corporate website! The fund did not require a public website, as it was a closed fund that was not soliciting communication with the general public.

The existence of Alpine Capital is irrefutable and was of course registered with Companies House.
During the operation of the fund, Mr Tuckey purchased and utilised the Training Traders software and methodology. Mr Tuckey appeared on the commercial stating he had used these techniques – a statement of fact, and he was represented as a ‘Hedge Fund Manager’ – also, a statement of fact. Mr Tuckey has since become a Director of Training Traders, and is still a trader. The forum member erroneously assumed that Mr Tuckey’s directorship of Training Traders had meant that he had never been a Hedge Fund Manager.

For those wishing to exercise due diligence please check Companies House ( see attached screenshot) and check the ‘INCORPORATION DOCUMENT CERTIFICATE OF INCORPORATION’."

The rapid response from Pboyles demonstrated that your answer raised more questions than it answered.

What exactly was the nature of this hedge fund? Did it or its manager not require FSA registration? If not, why not? If so, what were their numbers?

What was the performance of this hedge fund? Was it publicly audited?

Why was Mr Tuckey only FSA registered before June 2004?

Why was Alpine Capital LLP listed as "dormant" for most of its existence? Can an active company be listed as "dormant"?

Most reasonable people would I suspect want clarification of these matters. Bear in mind that you have used Mr Tuckey's status as a "hedge fund manager" to promote your services. It is therefore important that he was a hedge fund manager, and his performance was such that people would wish to be taught by someone who had taught him.

People might also wonder why a successful hedge fund manager (if indeed he was such) would wish to give that up to work as a trainer.

As I say, in my opinion at least, your reply has raised far more questions than it has answered.

 

[pboyles]

Well you can make your own mind up, here is a screenshot from his website some time ago.

 

[The Leopard]

Mr Steel does address some of the points raised - after a fashion. Sadly, this has not been done in a way likely to silence his critics. Fifth:

"Turtles Program .
The Turtle program and the turtles are our pride and joy. We are extremely proud of our Turtles and their performance, hard work and the dedication day in and day out to acquire the great skill of trading.

This is a pure apprentice program, we shoulder all expenses because we have the confidence in our training and methodology to take a group of people and fund their training and trading in order for them to trade based on the methodology we teach.

This is a well thought investment on our part and we fully expect that our Turtles performance will gives us more than the expected returns on our investment.

As has been recognised, we selected candidates from a large number of applicants. These ‘New Turtle Traders’ have been trained, mentored, equipped and funded all by Training Traders. As anticipated, performance between individuals has varied based upon rate of learning, selection of instruments to trade and adapting to the psychological demands of trading. As is normal in any trading team, some traders are in positive territory, some are flat and some are down. This is by no means a reflection on the performance of any one trader. These traders are participating mostly in longer term trading and require a longer period than 4 months for the process and themselves to fully come to fruition.

We owe it to nobody whatsoever to disclose any information beyond what we choose and hope that any individual with a fair and reasonable intellect would understand this and appreciate our inherent confidence in our trading approach to undertake such a time consuming and financially significant task."

I trust you won't think me rude when I say that this strikes me as pure waffle. You were asked simply whether the turtles (these ones, not the real ones, the Richard Dennis ones) were trading live and if they had been given the full hundred thousand as was widely claimed in the numerous places where this project was promoted.

As for your last paragraph, people with "fair and reasonable intellects" might be able to think of a number of reasons why you might undertake "such a time consuming and financially significant task" - for example, it might be a simple promotional exercise.

Whatever the case, I suspect many will be interested by the fact that you have (doubtless inadvertently) avoided the question.

 

[The Leopard]

There are other matters that your post raises - examples are given below.

I feel very sorry for you if ex-employees have defaced your building. This is criminal behaviour and I hope you have contacted the relevant authorities. It is odd though. These must either be very disturbed individuals (few people, however their employment ended, seek revenge upon their former employer by means of criminal damage conducted in a public place in full view of cctv cameras) or they must have had a very serious grievance.

You state that "There have been a number of unsubstantiated and untrue allegations posted on this and other similar forums some of which have been removed. These posts are libellous (see: Defamation)".

This is a serious allegation, and you should state clearly which posts are libellous. Failure to do so, and the curious inclusion of a link to a lawyer's website, might be construed as a crude and clumsy attempt to silence your critics through intimidation. Of course, I am sure that this was not your intent but there is certainly the danger that it might be perceived as such.

 

[The Leopard]

In Conclusion

The OP posed the question "Mike Baghdady - should I take a course or not?".

My initial answer would have been "By all means, and Godspeed".

Sadly, in the light of responses seen in this thread, I can no longer support this opinion. And of course, one's mind turns inevitably to the question "What do we really know about Mike Baghdady?". The answer surely is "very little".

Where is his publicly-audited track record? Can we be sure that he is a millionaire who has made his money from trading? As far as I am aware, all that is known for sure is that he sells training courses for substantial sums of money. It has not been unknown in the past for people who do not actually trade to do such things. I might believe that this does not apply to Mr Baghdady, but can I be sure? Where is the proof that he is a successful trader?

The official responses have I feel been lacking. Almost all of the questions posed await a satisfactory response. As far as I am aware there is no proof of his own success as a trader (please contradict me if I am wrong, and post such proofs).

This is in contrast with the original turtle trainer, Richard Dennis. He was well-known and highly regarded in professional circles, and I believe had an extremely impressive public record. He undertook his project for sport rather than financial gain. Mr Baghdady might be just the same, but can anyone doubt that his "turtle" idea is an excellent promotion for his training business? The same business, let us not forget, that he told a New York court supplied his sole income in 2009.

So my answer to the OP would now be this. It is your money, and you must judge how best to dispose of it. But if it were my money, I would certainly not spend it on training provided by Mike Baghdady.

 

[The Leopard]

One final question for Training Traders.

On the home page of your website there is a video prominently displayed. It features a woman wandering (inexplicably) around London and extolling the virtues of Mike Baghdady and Training Traders.

From about 1 minute 38 seconds a section begins where the woman says:

"You've probably lost money trading in the past, and Training Traders will prevent that from happening in the future".

That is an exact quote from your video. Note it is unequivocal - Training Traders WILL prevent you from losing money in the future through trading.

Why on earth would you put such a nonsensical claim on the home page of your website? It is not possible for you to lose money trading, because Training Traders will PREVENT this from happening.

Does that sound like a sensible, realistic or true claim? Does Training Traders really believe that?

Etholle SD Copy-TRAINING TRADERS VERSION 2.mpeg - YouTube

Training Traders, Forex, Stock Market, Trading Courses

Please note, the statement is clear and unqualified - Training Traders WILL prevent you losing money from trading.

 

[pboyles]

I have to point out the obvious, Malcolm has already admitted some of the fake turtles have lost money trading.

 

[The Leopard]

I have to point out the obvious, Malcolm has already admitted some of the fake turtles have lost money trading.

Ah, but is that money, or "money"? They seem reluctant to say.

 

[Lightning McQueen]

they seem also to be reluctant to say how many turtles there are.

from the video you posted up there leapard, it most clearly says 20.

Etholle SD Copy-TRAINING TRADERS VERSION 2.mpeg - YouTube

in cnbc interview, it's clearly stated as 20.

New Turtle Traders Official CNBC Launch - YouTube

cnn interview, clearly says 15.

Mike Baghdady Interview Live on CNN - Turtle Trader Program - YouTube

prnewswire has the number at 20.

'New Turtles Traders' Start Trading Live Today in Landmark Experiment -- LONDON, September 19, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --

with photo lineup of only 13 new turtles.

Press Releases | Presswire

from the new turtles web page

"Training Traders and Mike Baghdady will select 10 people from a diverse range of backgrounds and take them under our wings as true apprentices of old and teach, train, mentor and have them work under a master artisan to be molded to become the new masters of the financial markets."

which is it, what is the definitive start number? how many turtles are left? and how many touched cloth?

 

[DionysusToast]

These turtles are an endangered species, obviously...

 

[The Leopard]

which is it, what is the definitive start number? how many turtles are left? and how many touched cloth?

It is strange how much uncertainty there is. On some outlets £100,000 was claimed for each, on others $100,000.

So the money at risk is between 1 and 2 million dollars or pounds - either way, a large sum to risk. Except that in another media piece it said that the turtles would be canned if they lost half of their stake.

So are they giving £100,000 to 20 turtles, or $50,000 to 10 turtles, or something in between?

And there is still no confirmation that they are actually using real money. I can't be bothered to trawl back through the thread to see where that question first came from, but surely it is a very easy one to answer?