Best Thread Keynes Vs. Hayek

[Pat494]

your dreams are very protectionist Pat :shock:

to each their own I s'pose but i must say, Keynes would not be impressed.

The spreading of the problem has a great short term appeal to politicians as the problem disappears for a while. But down the road it suddenly becomes everyone's problem as all the smaller problems surface at the same time. This now huge problem can't then be hidden somewhere out of view. This is just what has happened and it may now be too big to solve easily.
Having many watertight doors on the route stops the rot right in its infancy.

 

[new_trader]

What? The problem of too much debt and too much consumption cannot easily be solved with more debt and more consumption? You're joking, right?

Maybe we just need to print more money?

 

[Pat494]

The spreading of the problem has a great short term appeal to politicians as the problem disappears for a while. But down the road it suddenly becomes everyone's problem as all the smaller problems surface at the same time. This now huge problem can't then be hidden somewhere out of view. This is just what has happened and it may now be too big to solve easily.
Having many watertight doors on the route stops the rot right in its infancy.

The "domino effect" is self evident and has happened.

I expect NT would raise banker's wages and have a multi-billion PR campaign to pretend it never happened.
What a 20th century nitwit !

 

[new_trader]

The "domino effect" is self evident and has happened.

I expect NT would raise banker's wages and have a multi-billion PR campaign to pretend it never happened.
What a 20th century nitwit !

What makes you say I would want to raise Banker's wages? Read through this thread before you make spurious assertions backed up with insults.

 

[new_trader]

What? The problem of too much debt and too much consumption cannot easily be solved with more debt and more consumption? You're joking, right?

Maybe we just need to print more money?

I was being facetious...:!:

 

[Pat494]

I was being facetious...:!:

Really ?

 

[Pat494]

Let us suppose back in the Stone Age there is a village of 100 people who decide to have an outing by the seaside. They share the costs.
Enough food is supplied by the caterers for a picnic lunch after a swim.
The village chief is Fat Al and after scoffing his portion decides he is still hungry so he tells his henchmen big Bob, and mean Mike to take 1/2 of each child's portion away and they eat that too. The children dare not protest. They don't quite starve those at the bottom of the heap because otherwise they would have to do the grubbier jobs themselves.
The beginnings of capitalism as we know it imho -
altruistic - no
sensitive - no
Only fat Al and his cronies are happy

 

[new_trader]

Let us suppose back in the Stone Age there is a village of 100 people who decide to have an outing by the seaside. They share the costs.
Enough food is supplied by the caterers for a picnic lunch after a swim.
The village chief is Fat Al and after scoffing his portion decides he is still hungry so he tells his henchmen big Bob, and mean Mike to take 1/2 of each child's portion away and they eat that too. The children dare not protest. They don't quite starve those at the bottom of the heap because otherwise they would have to do the grubbier jobs themselves.
The beginnings of capitalism as we know it imho -
altruistic - no
sensitive - no
Only fat Al and his cronies are happy

Rubbish, this is Fascism.

 

[new_trader]

Let us suppose back in the Stone Age there is a village of 100 people who decide to have an outing by the seaside. They share the costs.
Enough food is supplied by the caterers for a picnic lunch after a swim.
The village chief is Fat Al and after scoffing his portion decides he is still hungry so he tells his henchmen big Bob, and mean Mike to take 1/2 of each child's portion away and they eat that too. The children dare not protest. They don't quite starve those at the bottom of the heap because otherwise they would have to do the grubbier jobs themselves.
The beginnings of capitalism as we know it imho -
altruistic - no
sensitive - no
Only fat Al and his cronies are happy

Ironically, you have just descibed a system that both you and Atilla seem to support...redistribution of wealth, no free market...abolition of greed and 'selfishness'...that is all straight from the fascist handbook!

"The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill."

"To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. While many of these projects were domestic—roads, buildings, stadiums—the largest project of all was militarism, with huge armies and arms production."

nitwit!

 

[Pat494]

Ironically, you have just descibed a system that both you and Atilla seem to support...redistribution of wealth, no free market...abolition of greed and 'selfishness'...that is all straight from the fascist handbook!

"The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill."

"To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. While many of these projects were domestic—roads, buildings, stadiums—the largest project of all was militarism, with huge armies and arms production."

nitwit!

I am not a supporter of Fascism or the other extreme.
I prefer a fair and reasonable system

 

[Atilla]

Ironically, you have just descibed a system that both you and Atilla seem to support...redistribution of wealth, no free market...abolition of greed and 'selfishness'...that is all straight from the fascist handbook!
"The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill."

"To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. While many of these projects were domestic—roads, buildings, stadiums—the largest project of all was militarism, with huge armies and arms production."

nitwit!

NT no amount of communicating with you can address the rubbish you write.

Precisely as Pat says it is about building and administering an efficient working system that is equitable (fair) that we are discussing.

You come up with these concocted statements based on your wild imagination which is most unfair to say the least.

 

[Atilla]

your dreams are very protectionist Pat :shock:

to each their own I s'pose but i must say, Keynes would not be impressed.

I think the problem actually lies with the information sets each agent possesses in our world. We have people voting for policies of which they don't really understand the effects on the real economy and are simply backing the ideas because it sounds logical for example the terrible doctrine of yellow peril, Asian people "stealing jobs" ... sickening but it was supported.

One way to tackle this problem is compulsory finance and economics education at school so the agents posses at least similar information as the policy makers that way ridiculous, harmful policies can never be passed.

My favourite solution is of course to strip away the right to vote of those people who don't have a Bachelors degree because i'm a tyrannical draconian psycho.

In short my point is that the assumption made by economists such as keynes and hayek, and philips, and solow and pretty much all of them that the economic agents know their strategies in the game and know the outcome of their strategies is inherently flawed. The effects of this are wide reaching.

Take for example Atilla's urge to "punish" the people who made the decisions leading up to the liquidity trap that characterizes the recent financial crisis, many many people share this view but that doesn't make it any more rational or even correct. They call for the banks not to be bailed out but don't realize the effects of that which range from more and more liquidity trap situations to widespread unemployment, yet they sit there safe in their widget factory thinking their neighbour Mr Tsang (who's daughter is the widget factory's CEO while his son is the CFO) is trying to steal their job.

On a less reflective and well thought out note: yay CMC decreased their spreads on some CFDs for traders in New Zealand (and i think Aussie too) i r happeh

How do you justify the bonuses given to fat cats irrespective of productivity or capital gains for the companies these people work for?

I note the key words - Rational or Correct?


If bonus and rewards and salary increases and benefits are given to increased output and value then should this not have a counter balance?

I would not have termed it as physical punishment. Merely financial demotement. P45. Redundancy - you know like balancing lifes slings and arrows and outrageous fortunes?

I would also be interested to see how you might rationalise golden handshakes either under these scenarios.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

How do you justify the bonuses given to fat cats irrespective of productivity or capital gains for the companies these people work for?

I note the key words - Rational or Correct?


If bonus and rewards and salary increases and benefits are given to increased output and value then should this not have a counter balance?

I would not have termed it as physical punishment. Merely financial demotement. P45. Redundancy - you know like balancing lifes slings and arrows and outrageous fortunes?

I would also be interested to see how you might rationalise golden handshakes either under these scenarios.

Agreed. These people are quick to shout out about the their contribution to the company and wonders of pristine capitalism etc in good times when they want dividends paid on their/their cross directorship friends' shares but fat cat remuneration is tremendously sticky downwards in the face of poor performance. How many examples of reduced salaries do you hear of outside of the one dollar club?

 

[Pat494]

Steve Jobs put the I into phones etc. Perhaps I can put an I into NT - NIT

 

[new_trader]

NT no amount of communicating with you can address the rubbish you write.

Precisely as Pat says it is about building and administering an efficient working system that is efficient and equitable (fair) that we are discussing.

You come up with these concocted statements based on your wild imagination which is most unfair to say the least.

It is you and Pat that believe in a Utopia that only a child could conceive. It is you and Pat that keep calling what we have in the U.K 'capitalism' when it is much closer to fascism. Nothing I wrote above is from my imagination, Fascism is what you and Pat want.

Ask a child what their idea of a perfect world is and they would say the things you do, a world that is fair, a world where there is no poverty, a world where there is no greed...I can understand that from a child, but from 'intelligent' adults?

Let's take the latest headlines

UK seeing a big rise in poverty, says IFS

BBC News - UK seeing a big rise in poverty, says IFS

This is what happens in a world of 'equitable' distribution that you crave. Everyone is brought down to the lowest common denominator, it is simple arithmetic.

"The government wants a system where people are better off in work than they would be on benefits."

That's a laugh, why work if the state looks after you by taking money away from those that do work!

 

[Martinghoul]

This is a most hilarious conversation indeed!

 

[new_trader]

Good work BOE, print more money...Seems the last round worked

UK economy deteriorating, says BCC
BBC News - UK economy deteriorating, says BCC

 

[Atilla]

It is you and Pat that believe in a Utopia that only a child could conceive. It is you and Pat that keep calling what we have in the U.K 'capitalism' when it is much closer to fascism. Nothing I wrote above is from my imagination, Fascism is what you and Pat want.

Ask a child what their idea of a perfect world is and they would say the things you do, a world that is fair, a world where there is no poverty, a world where there is no greed...I can understand that from a child, but from 'intelligent' adults?

Let's take the latest headlines

UK seeing a big rise in poverty, says IFS

BBC News - UK seeing a big rise in poverty, says IFS

This is what happens in a world of 'equitable' distribution that you crave. Everyone is brought down to the lowest common denominator, it is simple arithmetic.

"The government wants a system where people are better off in work than they would be on benefits."

That's a laugh, why work if the state looks after you by taking money away from those that do work!

Originally Posted by new_trader


Ironically, you have just descibed a system that both you and Atilla seem to support...redistribution of wealth, no free market...abolition of greed and 'selfishness'...that is all straight from the fascist handbook! You mean socialist not facist. Do you know the difference. Even so have said none of the above anyhow. You are surely delusional
"The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill."

"To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. While many of these projects were domestic—roads, buildings, stadiums—the largest project of all was militarism, with huge armies and arms production."

nitwit!

You arguements are so badly constructed and outrageous you are perhaps foaming at the mouth... You haven't been bitten recently by any nits have you. :cheesy:

 

[Pat494]

It is you and Pat that believe in a Utopia that only a child could conceive. It is you and Pat that keep calling what we have in the U.K 'capitalism' when it is much closer to fascism. Nothing I wrote above is from my imagination, Fascism is what you and Pat want.

Well NiT, it seems you have little idea of what fascism is.
Let me inform you that aiming for an ideal world has absolutely nothing to do with fascism, which was an evil and twisted political idea to promote the fortunes of Mussolini by force.
As someone once said " the road to perfection is infinetly long" i.e. impossible to attain but one can make advances down it.

 

[new_trader]

Originally Posted by new_trader


Ironically, you have just descibed a system that both you and Atilla seem to support...redistribution of wealth, no free market...abolition of greed and 'selfishness'...that is all straight from the fascist handbook! You mean socialist not facist. Do you know the difference. Even so have said none of the above anyhow. You are surely delusional
"The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against any law of the Collectivity. The Fascist State with its corporative conception puts men and their possibilities into productive work and interprets for them the duties they have to fulfill."

"To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. While many of these projects were domestic—roads, buildings, stadiums—the largest project of all was militarism, with huge armies and arms production."

nitwit!

You arguements are so badly constructed and outrageous you are perhaps foaming at the mouth... You haven't been bitten recently by any nits have you. :cheesy:

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty