Best Thread Keynes Vs. Hayek

[new_trader]

Enhanced capitalism with a fair system of distribution.

Volumes have been written and can't be bothered to type it out again.

Politicians and Chief Execs and Financial System, Pension Funds, Fat Cats it's all there.

We are not maximising profits we are maximising executive management rewards irrespective of whether they return shareholder value or not. Can you not see this are you blind.

Banks possess properties and get bailout.

Individuals are indebted to banks and end up paying higher prices and taxes.

Bankers continue getting rewards and bonuses instead of shoring up capital reserves.


Blah blah blah... Wake up and smell the coffee.

How does taxing 'the wealthy' fix the problems you've highlighted?

We don't need enhanced Capitalism, we just need to let Capitalism function as it should. Why can't you understand this? Why do you still insist calling what we have now Capitalism?

 

[new_trader]

China Diapers you may be new to this site but NT is one of those all me me me and mine mine mine type of characters.

We need capitalism to have a conscience and be fairer. Perfect competition and capitalism maximising profits etc is a load of text book theory based on out dated assumptions which are no longer valid.

I am for capitalism and never been against it. Being a capitalist with a social conscience does not make one a marxist.

Me me me mine mine mine character? Can you elaborate on that in detail or are you just casting aspersions?

 

[Atilla]

OK, fair enough. FWIW I don't agree with banks or any other business receiving taxpayers money but I don't think any company in any industry would turn it down.

If your answer to the fat cats situation is more regulation, I don't see it working but I will read the thread from the start before posting anymore.

Ofcourse we need more regulation.

Precisely why we are here - is because Banks can not be trusted to regulate them selves. Short term risk taking to maximise profits and bonus culture at the expense of ef the long term.

Where was risk management or control processes.

Big bang and self regulation indeed... Raegonomics and Thatcherism has reached its conclusion. Yet profoundly enough some people calling for more freerer markets.

I'm all for small government but self regulation sucks big time.


As for capitalism - why weren't the shareholders asked to put up more money instead of tax payers bailing out these companies.

Do you know the difference between Socialism and Capitalism.


NT is a young dork who thinks he knows economics and what is fair but he is a very selfish egomaniac of the nth degree.

 

[Atilla]

Me me me mine mine mine character? Can you elaborate on that in detail or are you just casting aspersions?

Don't make me troll through your dribbles NT.

I'm sure you'll show your true colours again very soon.

 

[new_trader]

I applaud Gates, Jobs, Buffett etc. Even they question whether any 1 person should have so much money while the guys down the road are short of a meal ! And so would anyone who has a human conscience.
The Gordon Gekko image of "greed is good" is about as absurd as Batman etc. Even most teenagers just treat such stuff as harmless fun. Grow up NT.

Straw man argument and supposition. You are consigning all rich people to the greedy bin based on a stereotype from a movie. When I see someone driving an expensive car I think 'hard working', 'successful', let me guess, you think "Gordon Gekko Greedy Capitalist pig, Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!"

 

[China Diapers]

Ofcourse we need more regulation. Precisely why we are here - is because Banks can not be trusted to regulate themselves. Short term risk taking to maximise profits and bonus culture at the expense of ef the long term.

I may be talking out my ass but it seems to me that as long as you have this cosy relationship between the banks and governments (which has existed for as long as there have been banks from what I understand) more regulations will not help.

As for capitalism - why weren't the shareholders asked to put up more money instead of tax payers bailing out these companies.

Yes that is what I would like to know.

Do you know the difference between Socialism and Capitalism.

Yes I do

 

[new_trader]

Don't make me troll through your dribbles NT.

I'm sure you'll show your true colours again very soon.

Put up or shut up Atilla.

 

[new_trader]

NT is a young dork who thinks he knows economics and what is fair but he is a very selfish egomaniac of the nth degree.

This is just ad hominem diatribe. You never make a compelling case for any of your arguments, you only grab arbitrary events here and there. As I said, put up or shut up.

 

[Atilla]

This is just ad hominem diatribe. You never make a compelling case for any of your arguments, you only grab arbitrary events here and there. As I said, put up or shut up.

Post #217
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/133422-keynes-vs-hayek-9.html#post1680306


Now will you shut up...

 

[new_trader]

Post #217
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/133422-keynes-vs-hayek-9.html#post1680306


Now will you shut up...

That's it? That makes me a me me me mine mine mine character? Any idiot (apart from you obviously) would be able to put what I wrote into context and see that it was in response to the question about certainty.

 

[new_trader]

About 3 years ago I read about the likelihood of the U.K imposing capital controls but I dismissed it as the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist. However, as the Government becomes more and more desperate and resorts to tactics like 'get the people to hate the rich', I can now see it as a real possibility. The clueless and docile public seems to be so malleable and ready to accept what they are told. So as capital begins to flow out of the country, as it no doubt will, the country will be in worse shape.

When the ‘tax the rich’ campaign fails the Government will tell the people that it is all the fault of the gold bugs! The people, led by Atilla, will chant "Kill the gold bugs! Cut their throat! Spill their blood! Take their gold"

When there is no more gold to take and the economy still hasn’t improved, the Government will tell the people that it is all the fault of the Oil speculators and the people, led by Atilla, will chant "Kill the oil speculators! Cut their throat! Spill their blood!"

When there are no more oil speculators, and the economy still hasn’t improved, the Government will tell the people that it is all the fault of the savers, and the people, led by Atilla, will chant "Kill the savers! Cut their throat! Spill their blood! Take their money"

Eventually, the Government will blame Atilla...

 

[Atilla]

That's it? That makes me a me me me mine mine mine character? Any idiot (apart from you obviously) would be able to put what I wrote into context and see that it was in response to the question about certainty.

Well you know dude anybody would have thought it was just you paying interest and taxes and just your wealth was erorded by inflation.

Not to mention you are ciphering your money away to another country. But hey we have free capital flows. Do what you think is best to protect your hard earnt lolly.

I find that you lack economic rationale and simply personalise everything.

As I have said before what you and I do or say is of absolute no consequence none what so ever. However, people rioting on the streets and going on big demonstrates now there is food for thought.

Why do you think people do that? Please don't come up with tripe about how they envy your wealth which you no doubt rightly deserve.

The perfect Capitalist System is not perfect but seriously bent!

It needs to be straightened and then hardened so it will not be so easy to bend next time round. imho :smart:


Stick that into your well contexted brain. :cheesy:

 

[new_trader]

Well you know dude anybody would have thought it was just you paying interest and taxes and just your wealth was erorded by inflation.

Not to mention you are ciphering your money away to another country. But hey we have free capital flows. Do what you think is best to protect your hard earnt lolly. I find that you lack economic rationale and simply personalise everything.

As I have said before what you and I do or say is of absolute no consequence none what so ever. However, people rioting on the streets and going on big demonstrates now there is food for thought.

Why do you think people do that? Please don't come up with tripe about how they envy your wealth which you no doubt rightly deserve.

The perfect Capitalist System is not perfect but seriously bent!

It needs to be straightened and then hardened so it will not be so easy to bend next time round. imho :smart:


Stick that into your well contexted brain. :cheesy:

Wow, looks like I may have been close to the mark.

 

[Atilla]

About 3 years ago I read about the likelihood of the U.K imposing capital controls but I dismissed it as the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist. However, as the Government becomes more and more desperate and resorts to tactics like 'get the people to hate the rich', I can now see it as a real possibility. The clueless and docile public seems to be so malleable and ready to accept what they are told. So as capital begins to flow out of the country, as it no doubt will, the country will be in worse shape. You prescribe to this already don't you. Aren't you the one making investments abroad. For the record, I have no objections to free flow of capital by the way.

When the ‘tax the rich’ campaign fails the Government will tell the people that it is all the fault of the gold bugs! The people, led by Atilla, will chant "Kill the gold bugs! Cut their throat! Spill their blood! Take their gold" You have short memory or somefink. I'm in agreement re: bringing back gold standard at an opportune moment

When there is no more gold to take and the economy still hasn’t improved, the Government will tell the people that it is all the fault of the Oil speculators and the people, led by Atilla, will chant "Kill the oil speculators! Cut their throat! Spill their blood!" This is pretty heavy stuff NT. You ok mate. :-0

When there are no more oil speculators, and the economy still hasn’t improved, the Government will tell the people that it is all the fault of the savers, and the people, led by Atilla, will chant "Kill the savers! Cut their throat! Spill their blood! Take their money"

Eventually, the Government will blame Atilla...

NT mate you ever condsidered giving up trading and writing fiction.


To clarify simply put - to bring us out of our debt crises I prescribe to;

1. Raise taxes
2. Cut spending (and reduce big Gov)
3. Maintain interest rates r < i below inflation to stimulate growth (this also helps with exch rate)

 

[new_trader]

NT mate you ever condsidered giving up trading and writing fiction.


To clarify simply put - to bring us out of our debt crises I prescribe to;

1. Raise taxes
2. Cut spending (and reduce big Gov)
3. Maintain interest rates r < i below inflation to stimulate growth (this also helps with exch rate)

And every time I ask you, every time, you don't have an answer other than "how the f*ck should I know?"

1) How much of their own hard-earned money should people be allowed to keep?

3) What should interest rates be?

how about interest rates 10% with inflation at 15%?

You actually think that the BOE can finesse inflation? What is the right ratio to achieve growth? What could possibly make you think the BOE has a it right when they have been DEAD WRONG for the last 5+ years.

 

[Atilla]

And every time I ask you, every time, you don't have an answer other than "how the f*ck should I know?"

1) How much of their own hard-earned money should people be allowed to keep?Don't confuse the issue dude. You lose clarity. Simple answer to your question is if PAYE is 22% then it should be raised to 23-25%

I also like Boris's mansion tax idea for over 500-1m properties. Council tax collection is already in place simple to connect.

3) What should interest rates be? They should be kept where they are for now as BoE is doing.

how about interest rates 10% with inflation at 15%? Don't confuse the issue as it is difficult enough focusing on the issues at hand with you without going off in tangents. Do you see interest rates at 10%?

You actually think that the BOE can finesse inflation? What is the right ratio to achieve growth? What could possibly make you think the BOE has a it right when they have been DEAD WRONG for the last 5+ years.

On the contrary I've been dead right since 2006. In fact I've been right since the 80s as I was never a fan of Thatcher and always thought her policies would detrimentally effect the UK in due course. I was referring to manufacturing and decimation of jobs but didn't foresee London losing it's global reputation for sound money management.

 

[LuKOs.ro]

In Pat494's world

1. Everyone keeps their jobs
2. full employment is aimed for
3. troops home from Afghanistan etc.
4. wealth tax on multi-millionaires
5. promote the idea of working for public service rather than selfish greed
6. Out of EU
7. Stop giving away tax payer's money to 3rd world
8. Prosecute those responsible for the financial disaster and heavily fine the guilty.
9. Law to stop foreign money taking over British firms like Cadburies/British Steel etc. Foreign ownership of shares limited to 49%.
10. Take the tax off petrol and beer
11. legalize drugs, to be sold by Govt over the counter to over 18s
12. No immigration. Temporary work permits only issued to foreigners if a UK person can't be found to do the job.
13. Wages are more fairly distributed for a minimum 8 hour day
14. Any shortfall in revenue made up by a % decrease in wages in bad times and gradually returned in good times. Keeping Britain solvent for a change.

Unfortunately, reality doesn't work this way

 

[Pat494]

Unfortunately, reality doesn't work this way

One can but hope

:innocent:

 

[Pat494]

Surely The Bottom Line of any reasonable Government's policy should be a safe and prosperous enviroment for its population. Otherwise it is the Govt's duty to make it so.
Attacking either its neighbours or its own people is surely a no-no in this enlightened age.

We have all seen the tyrants of the past come and go, usually in a bloody war. Gaddafi was just another dreadful dictator in a long line. One tyrant less !!

If the politicians can put that problem behind them then they could hurry up and get on with tackling serious problems like pollution, climate change etc.

 

[enragedcow]

your dreams are very protectionist Pat :shock:

to each their own I s'pose but i must say, Keynes would not be impressed.

I think the problem actually lies with the information sets each agent possesses in our world. We have people voting for policies of which they don't really understand the effects on the real economy and are simply backing the ideas because it sounds logical for example the terrible doctrine of yellow peril, Asian people "stealing jobs" ... sickening but it was supported.

One way to tackle this problem is compulsory finance and economics education at school so the agents posses at least similar information as the policy makers that way ridiculous, harmful policies can never be passed.

My favourite solution is of course to strip away the right to vote of those people who don't have a Bachelors degree because i'm a tyrannical draconian psycho.

In short my point is that the assumption made by economists such as keynes and hayek, and philips, and solow and pretty much all of them that the economic agents know their strategies in the game and know the outcome of their strategies is inherently flawed. The effects of this are wide reaching.

Take for example Atilla's urge to "punish" the people who made the decisions leading up to the liquidity trap that characterizes the recent financial crisis, many many people share this view but that doesn't make it any more rational or even correct. They call for the banks not to be bailed out but don't realize the effects of that which range from more and more liquidity trap situations to widespread unemployment, yet they sit there safe in their widget factory thinking their neighbour Mr Tsang (who's daughter is the widget factory's CEO while his son is the CFO) is trying to steal their job.

On a less reflective and well thought out note: yay CMC decreased their spreads on some CFDs for traders in New Zealand (and i think Aussie too) i r happeh