Best Thread Keynes Vs. Hayek

[new_trader]

Well NiT, it seems you have little idea of what fascism is.
Let me inform you that aiming for an ideal world has absolutely nothing to do with fascism, which was an evil and twisted political idea to promote the fortunes of Mussolini by force.
As someone once said " the road to perfection is infinetly long" i.e. impossible to attain but one can make advances down it.

In your Utopian society who is responsible for policing the distribution of wealth? I am saying that this should be left to the free market, where corporations and individuals succeed on their own merit and are allowed to fail because of their incompetence. For some inexplicable reason, you and Atilla think that I support the Bank bailouts even though I have explained on more than one occasion that I don’t and that it isn’t capitalism. I also believe in sound-money not only because it prevents the abuse of Central Bank powers and bailouts would have been less likely, but because history has proven, time and time again, that fiat currency has led to economic ruin.

 

[Atilla]

In your Utopian society who is responsible for policing the distribution of wealth? I am saying that this should be left to the free market, where corporations and individuals succeed on their own merit and are allowed to fail because of their incompetence. For some inexplicable reason, you and Atilla think that I support the Bank bailouts even though I have explained on more than one occasion that I don’t and that it isn’t capitalism. I also believe in sound-money not only because it prevents the abuse of Central Bank powers and bailouts would have been less likely, but because history has proven, time and time again, that fiat currency has led to economic ruin.

You really must be hearing voices in your head dear NT.

As I recall your position as a solution to our crises is;

1. Cut taxes
2. Raise interest rates (10%? you mention)


At no point did I ever think you wanted to bail the banks out.


My position was that I think what Brown did was a good move swapping bank share equity for bailouts. So when the recovery comes the Gov. can sell back to markets - having restored confidence, and inject back into economy and tax payers in terms of tax cuts - who are the people who have bailed out the banks.

You capiche?

 

[new_trader]

You really must be hearing voices in your head dear NT.

As I recall your position as a solution to our crises is;

1. Cut taxes
2. Raise interest rates (10%? you mention)


At no point did I ever think you wanted to bail the banks out.


My position was that I think what Brown did was a good move swapping bank share equity for bailouts. So when the recovery comes the Gov. can sell back to markets - having restored confidence, and inject back into economy and tax payers in terms of tax cuts - who are the people who have bailed out the banks.

You capiche?

Yes, you are furiously back-pedalling now that you've realised you have made a complete fool of yourself with your attacks on capitalism...

Care to argue with wikipedia now? Maybe you should submit your own article on capitalism and fascism .

Economics of fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fascism operated from a Social Darwinist view of human relations. Their aim was to promote superior individuals and weed out the weak.[5] In terms of economic practice, this meant promoting the interests of successful businessmen while destroying trade unions and other organizations of the working class.[6] Historian Gaetano Salvemini argued in 1936 that fascism makes taxpayers responsible to private enterprise, because "the State pays for the blunders of private enterprise... Profit is private and individual. Loss is public and social."[7] Fascist governments encouraged the pursuit of private profit and offered many benefits to large businesses, but they demanded in return that all economic activity should serve the national interest.

No, I didn't say interest rates should be 10%

YOU said, "inflation > interest rates" is a solution.

I asked (do you understand that word?) why you think that inflation @ 15% and interest rates @10% ( i>r the magic formula you prescribe) would be any less "successful" than any arbitrary figures you pull out of your ar5e. You capiche?

A policy such as yours punishes the classes who are on fixed incomes and savers. Hardly fair and equitable

 

[Atilla]

Yes, you are furiously back-pedalling now that you've realised you have made a complete fool of yourself with your attacks on capitalism...:rolleyes:

Care to argue with wikipedia now? Maybe you should submit your own article on capitalism and fascism .

Economics of fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




No, I didn't say interest rates should be 10%

YOU said, "inflation > interest rates" is a solution.

I asked (do you understand that word?) why you think that inflation @ 15% and interest rates @10% ( i>r the magic formula you prescribe) would be any less "successful" than any arbitrary figures you pull out of your ar5e. You capiche?

A policy such as yours punishes the classes who are on fixed incomes and savers. Hardly fair and equitable

You lack comprehension. You really do. Hang on a minute you are mr context aren't you. Or is that out of context. I think debating anything with you turns into a trivial pursuit of links. Wikipedia - now there is rock solid reference library beyond dispute... Must be true then if its up there in the ether cloud.


People on the march at Wall St are only a small token representation of opinions accross the advanced developed world. You must be deaf and blind as well as mentally challenged not to comprehend what they are telling you.

 

[new_trader]

You lack comprehension. You really do. Hang on a minute you are mr context aren't you. Or is that out of context. I think debating anything with you turns into a trivial pursuit of links. Wikipedia - now there is rock solid reference library beyond dispute... Must be true then if its up there in the ether cloud.

Discredit Wikipedia now...ok. Anything but admit being wrong. Provide your own sources, links or recommend a book. You have argued against capitalism and used the bank bailouts as a reason why it failed. If I remember rightly, you said "Socialism saved capitalism".

People on the march at Wall St are only a small token representation of opinions accross the advanced developed world. You must be deaf and blind as well as mentally challenged not to comprehend what they are telling you.

Yes, they are telling me that capitalism is the scapegoat and Politicians with socialist agendas, like Barrack Obama, are milking it for all it is worth. Those protestors should be in front of the White house and the Federal Reserve, the people who were responsible for TARP, QEn and other nonsense that has put America into a Great Depression.

 

[Atilla]

Discredit Wikipedia now...ok. Anything but admit being wrong. Provide your own sources, links or recommend a book. You have argued against capitalism and used the bank bailouts as a reason why it failed. If I remember rightly, you said "Socialism saved capitalism".

Ofcourse it did. How else would you phrase it... You sure don't understand Socialism or Capitalism.

Precisely the reason why Capitalism isn't perfect and needs to be fixed as self regulation and free markets is a load of testicoli.


Yes, they are telling me that capitalism is the scapegoat and Politicians with socialist agendas, like Barrack Obama, are milking it for all it is worth. Those protestors should be in front of the White house and the Federal Reserve, the people who were responsible for TARP, QEn and other nonsense that has put America into a Great Depression.

I have news for you dude - Wikipedia is not science or fact or historically correct.

 

[LuKOs.ro]

Hey friends, how about returning to the real core of the discussion. It is equally interesting to plea in a case of Keynesian economists vs libertarians. Plea for or against state intervention in times of crisis.

This is the main economic debate nowadays. What is your take on this ?

 

[new_trader]

Ron Paul has the answers!

Dartmouth College/Bloomberg Republican Presidential GOP Debate Oct. 11th, 2011 - Part 3 - YouTube

 

[Atilla]

Hey friends, how about returning to the real core of the discussion. It is equally interesting to plea in a case of Keynesian economists vs libertarians. Plea for or against state intervention in times of crisis.

This is the main economic debate nowadays. What is your take on this ?

Here is an alternative approach as a guiding rule.

Look at what other successful countries and continents are doing and emulate their actions. imho.


One does need good governance. Leaving things to free markets will lead to anarchy and collosal swings between extremes.

 

[Martinghoul]

Hey friends, how about returning to the real core of the discussion. It is equally interesting to plea in a case of Keynesian economists vs libertarians. Plea for or against state intervention in times of crisis.

This is the main economic debate nowadays. What is your take on this ?

Everything is good in moderation, but moderation is difficult to achieve and is, generally, an elusive and subjective type of concept.

 

[scose-no-doubt]

This is a most hilarious conversation indeed!

Why don't you make a better thread then?

Oh wait...

:!:

 

[Martinghoul]

Why don't you make a better thread then?

Oh wait...

:!:

Good lord, I have been a proper delinquent, haven't I?

 

[new_trader]

So, freedom leads to anarchy...

Let’s look at the facts.

Country rankings for trade, business, fiscal, monetary, financial, labor and investment freedoms


At number 1: Hong Kong, did the Government need to bail out any of the banks? Not that I know of. Is the government shooting its own citizens in the streets because they are protesting? I haven’t heard about any protests.

At number 2: Singapore, did the Government need to bail out any of the banks? Not that I know of. Is the government shooting its own citizens in the streets because they are protesting? I haven’t heard about any protests.

Down the list at number 9: USA, did the Government need to bail out any of the banks? YES. Is the government shooting its own citizens in the streets because they are protesting? Not yet.

Much further down the list at number 16: U.K, did the Government need to bail out any of the banks? YES. Is the government shooting its own citizens in the streets? No but the people rioted in the streets not long ago.

Way down the list at number 140: Syria, did the Government need to bail out any of the banks? Not sure. Is the government shooting its own citizens in the streets because they are protesting? YES.

Libya is at 173 and we know what is happening there.

Zimbabwe is at 178...print print print!

 

[Martinghoul]

N_T, if you think Singapore is free and democratic, you've got another think coming... People don't protest in Singapore precisely because everyone knows the government won't tolerate any shenanigans and plainclothes police are watching. Obviously, things are a-changing, but to suggest that Singapore is "free" in the Western sense of the word is absurd.

Moreover, you seem to be applying your own metrics very selectively. Have you looked at SGD rates and inflation?

Let me just repeat it again... There are no hard and fast rules for what sort of mix is right, as societies differ. Scandinavian countries are about as different from Singapore and Hong Kong as one can imagine and they are all doing very well, especially compared to the big Western sovereigns.

 

[maxima]

in all arguments of this type is one thing always missing.

you have to compare apples to apples. often noted that finland, sweden, canada (in some sense is australia) etc (here is singapore and hong kong) are more successful than others.

now try to extrapolate what would become of these countries if they were in the centre of the world affairs - massive political pressure, terrorism, general hate of the rest of the world, need to defend and promote your values around the world...

they will burst in 3 days. all their success because they are either uncatchable cowboys* (north europe, canada, oz) or heavily monitored by higher power.

now - the question will be asked why should you spend trillions on wars and subsequence of wars to promote democracy. thats different one. I believe you have to. because I am sure if US didnt irritate the world and coming to the fiends home to f%$ck them up at their home countries - we all be fighting them now on our streets. what you see now here in the UK when your own citizens wants to create their own country based on Sharia laws and collecting money from each other to blow nonbelievers etc - all these would be 10x worse if US didnt do preventive strikes here and there.....

I wont discuss any of these points because majority doesnt really understand whats going on and all these discussions ends up in flame...

this is what i know and what i learnt from real life experience and the rest is my personal believes...

the morale - there is no way you can just do what the others do because the most troubles are on the unexplored territory. you cant disable capitalism because majority now is more vocal - socialism doesnt work. end of story. etc etc

*uncatchable cowboy - it was a joke when a cowboy walks in a saloon boldly and a newcomer ask others - who is this. this is uncatchable cowboy. why? is he so fast? no - nobody cares to catch him.

 

[new_trader]

N_T, if you think Singapore is free and democratic, you've got another think coming... People don't protest in Singapore precisely because everyone knows the government won't tolerate any shenanigans and plainclothes police are watching. Obviously, things are a-changing, but to suggest that Singapore is "free" in the Western sense of the word is absurd.

Moreover, you seem to be applying your own metrics very selectively. Have you looked at SGD rates and inflation?

Let me just repeat it again... There are no hard and fast rules for what sort of mix is right, as societies differ. Scandinavian countries are about as different from Singapore and Hong Kong as one can imagine and they are all doing very well, especially compared to the big Western sovereigns.

Errr...I didn't compile the list so I don't think anything, I'm just presenting something with research behind it rather than an opinion pulled out of thin air. You conveniently ignored that Australia is 3rd and New Zealand is 4th, both are advanced Western economies and ranked above the USA and U.K.

Anyway, the BOE is doing a magnificent job managing the economy

BBC News - UK unemployment total reaches 17-year high

 

[Martinghoul]

Errr...I didn't compile the list so I don't think anything, I'm just presenting something with research behind it rather than an opinion pulled out of thin air. You conveniently ignored that Australia is 3rd and New Zealand is 4th, both are advanced Western economies and ranked above the USA and U.K.

Anyway, the BOE is doing a magnificent job managing the economy

BBC News - UK unemployment total reaches 17-year high

I am not ignoring anything... Because I am offering a counter-example, rather than making a categorical statement, it doesn't matter that Oz and Kiwi are high on this list. But anyways I am only accusing you of cherry-picking your data points, although I am possibly getting ahead of myself. I am aware of all these rankings, but I fail to see what general point you might be making. Can you tell me what exactly the conclusion you're arriving at based on this data? Also, what is your exact point regarding the BoE?

 

[new_trader]

I am not ignoring anything... Because I am offering a counter-example, rather than making a categorical statement, it doesn't matter that Oz and Kiwi are high on this list. But anyways I am only accusing you of cherry-picking your data points, although I am possibly getting ahead of myself. I am aware of all these rankings, but I fail to see what general point you might be making. Can you tell me what exactly the conclusion you're arriving at based on this data? Also, what is your exact point regarding the BoE?

And you are cherry-picking who you contradict even though others have made far more outrageous assertions. The statement was, and I quote "One does need good governance. Leaving things to free markets will lead to anarchy and collosal swings between extremes."

I have never argued for the right to form vigilante's or for individuals to be allowed to take the law into their own hands, or the right to pi55 in the street or to play loud music at anytime they want.

"One does need good governance. Leaving things to free markets will lead to anarchy and collosal swings between extremes."

So, do you agree or disagree?

 

[Atilla]

in all arguments of this type is one thing always missing.

you have to compare apples to apples. often noted that finland, sweden, canada (in some sense is australia) etc (here is singapore and hong kong) are more successful than others.

now try to extrapolate what would become of these countries if they were in the centre of the world affairs - massive political pressure, terrorism, general hate of the rest of the world, need to defend and promote your values around the world...

they will burst in 3 days. all their success because they are either uncatchable cowboys* (north europe, canada, oz) or heavily monitored by higher power.

now - the question will be asked why should you spend trillions on wars and subsequence of wars to promote democracy. thats different one. I believe you have to. because I am sure if US didnt irritate the world and coming to the fiends home to f%$ck them up at their home countries - we all be fighting them now on our streets. what you see now here in the UK when your own citizens wants to create their own country based on Sharia laws and collecting money from each other to blow nonbelievers etc - all these would be 10x worse if US didnt do preventive strikes here and there.....

I wont discuss any of these points because majority doesnt really understand whats going on and all these discussions ends up in flame...

this is what i know and what i learnt from real life experience and the rest is my personal believes...

the morale - there is no way you can just do what the others do because the most troubles are on the unexplored territory. you cant disable capitalism because majority now is more vocal - socialism doesnt work. end of story. etc etc

*uncatchable cowboy - it was a joke when a cowboy walks in a saloon boldly and a newcomer ask others - who is this. this is uncatchable cowboy. why? is he so fast? no - nobody cares to catch him.

You miss the point. The whole point is countries are different and you have to look at the differences between good apples and bad apples.

eg: How US and China approach relations with say other countries in Africa. US takes over installing puppet regime. China doesn't care pays and buys what it wants. Treats incoming outcoming governments with indifference.


The rest of your blurb is typical rubbish imho. But one has to dumb it down for the masses.

 

[Atilla]

And you are cherry-picking who you contradict even though others have made far more outrageous assertions. The statement was, and I quote "One does need good governance. Leaving things to free markets will lead to anarchy and collosal swings between extremes."

I have never argued for the right to form vigilante's or for individuals to be allowed to take the law into their own hands, or the right to pi55 in the street or to play loud music at anytime they want.

"One does need good governance. Leaving things to free markets will lead to anarchy and collosal swings between extremes."

So, do you agree or disagree?

Remind me aren't you the one posting links to clips where people propose for government to take your tax away they need your permission?

Agree or disagree?


You are soooooooooooooo funny...