Italy leaving the EU

[sminicooper]

I don't think they'll leave, that's absurd actually

If Renzi loses there's a good chance of a general election; if, as is possible or even likely, the Five-Star movement gains power then it would be a game-changer with the strong likelihood of an ITAL-EXITIMO referendum. Absurd? – I wouldn't be too sure.

 

[Atilla]

populist is a term used by the establishments with intention to diminish the others, Grillo yes is a comedian but he always been one at the expenses of the corrupt governments.

Corruption springs from every corner in Italian society but mostly if fermented between professional politicians.

He has created this political movement online only seven years ago gaining huge consents trough transparency and honesty.

It is the second force in the Italian political arena and they have a good chance to govern if the Italians are given the democratic right to vote.

Renzi is part of the establishment, some kind of left wing political chic, professional politicians, Renzi never worked outside politics. He has been placed there by the instruction of the Germans.
He does not decide anything, he is muppet, this reform is supported by the European Union and the financial international institutions.

I would not take very seriously what is written in the International newspapers, they are also the establishment or muppet of them. They will ferment what is convenient to them

There is new hope going on in the western counties and Brexit and the Us election are the consequence of it,power back to the people.

It will not be easy because the other side have the best tools to resist but when the people had enough and they get involved it is just a matter of time.

It is not about being right or left wing, those are archaic notions to control masses as religion do, it is about giving dignity back to the people.

Are you not over rating the people and the regions ability to get along in Italy.

Has EU not given Italy some discipline and common direction to manage their affairs.

Does Renzi not have a point that Italian politics is very fragmented and regional some say unmanagable.

How is a NO vote and exit from the EU going to help Italy?

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I fear Italy will leap into the unknown and will be torn apart by the politicians and vested interests tearing people and families apart.


Feel it's more of the same, let's blame the EU for our troubles.

I used to work with a couple of Italian traders and neither liked him thinking he was an embarrassment and disgrace to Italian politics.

 

[counter_violent]

Are you not over rating the people and the regions ability to get along in Italy.

Has EU not given Italy some discipline and common direction to manage their affairs.

A straight jacket is not discipline and One size does not fit all.

Does Renzi not have a point that Italian politics is very fragmented and regional some say unmanagable.

Yes he does have a point and it is unmanageable, but not because of the Italian people. It's because he is in an EU straight jacket. Not only that, but his hands are tied too!

How is a NO vote and exit from the EU going to help Italy?

In the very short term it won't. But once the EU collapses, each country can do what is required and elect suitable govt's, which can be replaced if found not to be working.

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I fear Italy will leap into the unknown and will be torn apart by the politicians and vested interests tearing people and families apart.

What hope is there when you don't even understand that the EU system is fundamentally flawed.

Feel it's more of the same, let's blame the EU for our troubles.

I used to work with a couple of Italian traders and neither liked him thinking he was an embarrassment and disgrace to Italian politics.

Fugs has already told you that Renzi has been placed by the EU as a puppet leader. He does not have the Italian interest at heart, but that of the EU.

 

[Atilla]

Fugs has already told you that Renzi has been placed by the EU as a puppet leader. He does not have the Italian interest at heart, but that of the EU.

For the last 50 years you mean???


Careful what you protestors wish for. Northern Italy much like Catalonians think they support the South. These separatist move can spread. Europe can then turn on it self again.

Heseltine did point this out to Brexiters but people will do what they will.

Same for French. When their minority groups turn to protest torching their shed holes will see how these countries turn to fascism and nazi support gains ground and the common man will get sweapt away.

They can then think about what they had and what they are left with as Latin America and Asia kick Western market into another orbit.

Destroy and rebuild. After another generation and perhaps 50 years EU popullar vote uprising much like the Arab spring uprising and democracy can take its head out of its **** and breath some fresh air.


As for Trump promoting being anti-estab... is a laff considering his GS connections.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016...new-hires-from-goldman-sachs-alumni-directory

Maybe when he said the bank has “total control” over Hillary he meant it as a compliment?

 

[Fugazsy]

For the last 50 years you mean???


Careful what you protestors wish for. Northern Italy much like Catalonians think they support the South. These separatist move can spread. Europe can then turn on it self again.

Heseltine did point this out to Brexiters but people will do what they will.

Same for French. When their minority groups turn to protest torching their shed holes will see how these countries turn to fascism and nazi support gains ground and the common man will get sweapt away.

They can then think about what they had and what they are left with as Latin America and Asia kick Western market into another orbit.

Destroy and rebuild. After another generation and perhaps 50 years EU popullar vote uprising much like the Arab spring uprising and democracy can take its head out of its **** and breath some fresh air.


As for Trump promoting being anti-estab... is a laff considering his GS connections.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016...new-hires-from-goldman-sachs-alumni-directory

Maybe when he said the bank has “total control” over Hillary he meant it as a compliment?

I think CV has answered you rightly.

The north never supported the south but only exploited it, it is a long story...going back to the unification of Italy where Britain also interfered wrongly in it just has they did with the war in Iraq.

The M5S have very well contained the anger of the people stopping them to take action in aggressive extremism and as you know it has happened in the past.

The pulse of the Italian economy was the small medium businesses. They were selling everything to everyone, now we are not competitive anymore, the euro is related to the German Mark, globalization has made it worst, every day many company like those close their doors.

The EU requires the Italians to produce mozzarella with powder milk instead of fresh milk, now I understand many does not see the difference but believe me the Italians do and are ready to go to war for it (I have a bit exaggerated here but I want you to understand where I am coming from).

This EU does not only limit me in what I am good at but is also trying to strip away from me the characteristic which made me who I am. And for what reasons? To me it seems to favor somebody else interests camouflaged by this utopia idea of a greater Europe, but in the mean time I have difficulty to bring food to my own children.

Yes the Italians did change more governments more than anyone else but remember the political party was the same, so in terms of stability none has been more stable then them.

Lets be honest here, who is benefiting here of this idea of the EU? Only the Germans together and supported by international financial worlds. The Germans would not get into this deal if they did not see advantage for themselves, they are cynical when it comes down to this, they always want to be above, they have tried it before but they were stopped twice by war, now this is a modern war and the third attempt, they have the money to conquers. But they have been stopped before and they will be stopped again.

What about the others? why did they get involved? Because they are gullible, they believed the fairy tale, they are romantic by nature, they dream and they get f@cked.

The British did not get involved completely because they are less gullible they are also cynical when they want to be.

Now they smelled the rat and are out completely and who got them out? The people, the so called average people which are showing the finger (to the establishment) and also in the direction of a better Europe if there is going to be one. Because if there is going to be one it has to be based on the needs and wish of the average people.

 

[Atilla]

I think CV has answered you rightly.

The north never supported the south but only exploited it, it is a long story...going back to the unification of Italy where Britain also interfered wrongly in it just has they did with the war in Iraq.

The M5S have very well contained the anger of the people stopping them to take action in aggressive extremism and as you know it has happened in the past.

The pulse of the Italian economy was the small medium businesses. They were selling everything to everyone, now we are not competitive anymore, the euro is related to the German Mark, globalization has made it worst, every day many company like those close their doors.

The EU requires the Italians to produce mozzarella with powder milk instead of fresh milk, now I understand many does not see the difference but believe me the Italians do and are ready to go to war for it (I have a bit exaggerated here but I want you to understand where I am coming from).

This EU does not only limit me in what I am good at but is also trying to strip away from me the characteristic which made me who I am. And for what reasons? To me it seems to favor somebody else interests camouflaged by this utopia idea of a greater Europe, but in the mean time I have difficulty to bring food to my own children.

Yes the Italians did change more governments more than anyone else but remember the political party was the same, so in terms of stability none has been more stable then them.

Lets be honest here, who is benefiting here of this idea of the EU? Only the Germans together and supported by international financial worlds. The Germans would not get into this deal if they did not see advantage for themselves, they are cynical when it comes down to this, they always want to be above, they have tried it before but they were stopped twice by war, now this is a modern war and the third attempt, they have the money to conquers. But they have been stopped before and they will be stopped again.

What about the others? why did they get involved? Because they are gullible, they believed the fairy tale, they are romantic by nature, they dream and they get f@cked.

The British did not get involved completely because they are less gullible they are also cynical when they want to be.

Now they smelled the rat and are out completely and who got them out? The people, the so called average people which are showing the finger (to the establishment) and also in the direction of a better Europe if there is going to be one. Because if there is going to be one it has to be based on the needs and wish of the average people.

Well one needs to look at why the EEC was formed adn how the evolution of the EU came about. Here is a brief summary... https://www.jstor.org/stable/4407131?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


We have had a major crises in 2008 originating in the US and spreading to UK and the EU once it was realised just how much Western economies are meshed together.

Out of our response, which has not been successful due to continuing inequity that's inherently in Capitalism and mismangement of economies.

Inevitably some countries benefit more than others. Some do better than others.

I hear what you are saying and I concur the relatively weaker countries of the EU weaken the Euro to the advantage of Germany and the stronger countries and lack of fiscal integration and discipline has compounded issues between nations and regions but to devide and split the EU will not help with any of these fundamental issues that can not be resolved internally enduring some hardship and pain. Italy suffered much from inflationary periods and falling Lira. The Euro does provide Italy with economic discipline in the absence of which regional devide with grow making politics considerably worse.


On a side note it is interesting where in the UK we have prosperous South and relatively poorer North, there is a reversal in Italy with a prosperous North and relatively poorer South. Difference being here in the UK the sentiment is that Northern regions were left unattended and left behind but you feel North has exploited the South.

Taking the human aspect out of this issue, the centre always attracts and regions at the periphery do less well. Without government intervention or manipulation of regional policy these developments will sadly continue.

 

[Fugazsy]

Well one needs to look at why the EEC was formed adn how the evolution of the EU came about. Here is a brief summary... https://www.jstor.org/stable/4407131?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


We have had a major crises in 2008 originating in the US and spreading to UK and the EU once it was realised just how much Western economies are meshed together.

Out of our response, which has not been successful due to continuing inequity that's inherently in Capitalism and mismangement of economies.

Inevitably some countries benefit more than others. Some do better than others.

I hear what you are saying and I concur the relatively weaker countries of the EU weaken the Euro to the advantage of Germany and the stronger countries and lack of fiscal integration and discipline has compounded issues between nations and regions but to devide and split the EU will not help with any of these fundamental issues that can not be resolved internally enduring some hardship and pain. Italy suffered much from inflationary periods and falling Lira. The Euro does provide Italy with economic discipline in the absence of which regional devide with grow making politics considerably worse.


On a side note it is interesting where in the UK we have prosperous South and relatively poorer North, there is a reversal in Italy with a prosperous North and relatively poorer North. Difference being here in the UK the sentiment is that Northern regions were left unattended and left behind but you feel North has exploited the South.

Taking the human aspect out of this issue, the centre always attracts and regions at the periphery do less well. Without government intervention or manipulation of regional policy these developments will sadly continue.

Hi Atilla

It is not a feel, it is a fact.

I do not know any south Italian person wherever he went (australia, england, germany, canada, france, us and so on) did not make it one way or another.
Why? Because in those places he found the real support he needed to live his life in a dignified way. Keep in mind their suffered very much leaving their places and their loved one (and lets not talk about the food....), as a consolation they brought in as many members of the family as they could to compensate that pain.
There was not any support supplied to them in the old country, if they had it they would not have left.
Of course the abuser always blames his victims to justify himself in front of the evidence and his propaganda can be so strong to make the victims believes they were guilt of something. A bit like a violent husband in relation to his victim wife.

The Italians have great difficulty at the moment in dealing not only on the home front but also with people with the intention to rule the world.

 

[TexasRangersFan]

How is a NO vote and exit from the EU going to help Italy?

Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I fear Italy will leap into the unknown and will be torn apart by the politicians and vested interests tearing people and families apart.


They were on the verge of bankruptcy a few years ago. IF they left the EU would it improve their financial situation or would they leave so they don't have to conform to the required austerity measures?



I used to work with a couple of Italian traders and neither liked him thinking he was an embarrassment and disgrace to Italian politics.

I think CV has answered you rightly.


The EU requires the Italians to produce mozzarella with powder milk instead of fresh milk, now I understand many does not see the difference but believe me the Italians do and are ready to go to war for it (I have a bit exaggerated here but I want you to understand where I am coming from).


No wonder people are upset with the EU. When I heard that the EU banned GMO seeds I thought it was a good thing. But when they regulate mozzarella cheese, that is too much detail. Someone has too much time on their hands.



This EU does not only limit me in what I am good at but is also trying to strip away from me the characteristic which made me who I am. And for what reasons? To me it seems to favor somebody else interests camouflaged by this utopia idea of a greater Europe, but in the mean time I have difficulty to bring food to my own children.

Yes the Italians did change more governments more than anyone else but remember the political party was the same, so in terms of stability none has been more stable then them.


When I have heard of Italy establishing a new government over the years, I always thought that it was because they lost confidence in the current government and they voted the guy out of office, voted in a new president and new administration. Is that pretty accurate or is there more to it ?



Lets be honest here, who is benefiting here of this idea of the EU? Only the Germans together and supported by international financial worlds. The Germans would not get into this deal if they did not see advantage for themselves, they are cynical when it comes down to this, they always want to be above, they have tried it before but they were stopped twice by war, now this is a modern war and the third attempt, they have the money to conquers. But they have been stopped before and they will be stopped again.


The Globalists, Major Bank houses and people like Soros ?



What about the others? why did they get involved? Because they are gullible, they believed the fairy tale, they are romantic by nature, they dream and they get f@cked.

Now they smelled the rat and are out completely and who got them out? The people, the so called average people which are showing the finger (to the establishment) and also in the direction of a better Europe if there is going to be one. Because if there is going to be one it has to be based on the needs and wish of the average people.

Just curious ...is the average European as informed as the people on this forum about European politics? Everyone posting in here seems to be well informed about current events. Half of American can't even identify the Vice - President and I bet we would be lucky if ten percent could identify the Prime Minister of Canada.

Americans are too centric. Part of that is because of our size and location as well the fact that our media seems to be more focused on the Kardashians and sports heroes than events beyond our borders.



I saw this article about Austria and they suggested that the presidency of Austria is a ceremonial post. Is that because their powers are limited? So who wields the power?

Mr Van der Bellen’s supporters claim a Hofer presidency would steer Austria (Österreich in German) towards an “Öxit” referendum on leaving the European Union; Mr Hofer half-heartedly denies this. After a year of campaigning, Austrians are tired of the election for a mostly ceremonial post.

https://espresso.economist.com/1ce83e5d4135b07c0b82afffbe2b3436

 

[Fugazsy]

Just curious ...is the average European as informed as the people on this forum about European politics? Everyone posting in here seems to be well informed about current events. Half of American can't even identify the Vice - President and I bet we would be lucky if ten percent could identify the Prime Minister of Canada.

Americans are too centric. Part of that is because of our size and location as well the fact that our media seems to be more focused on the Kardashians and sports heroes than events beyond our borders.



I saw this article about Austria and they suggested that the presidency of Austria is a ceremonial post. Is that because their powers are limited? So who wields the power?

Mr Van der Bellen’s supporters claim a Hofer presidency would steer Austria (Österreich in German) towards an “Öxit” referendum on leaving the European Union; Mr Hofer half-heartedly denies this. After a year of campaigning, Austrians are tired of the election for a mostly ceremonial post.

https://espresso.economist.com/1ce83e5d4135b07c0b82afffbe2b3436

If they leave they probably would renegotiate how to pay back. If the renegotiation is not accepted then another solution needs to be found including the one to get lost.

they continually changed the front face of the government and reshuffle their own positions but the people were just the same.

 

[hhiusa]

Just curious ...is the average European as informed as the people on this forum about European politics? Everyone posting in here seems to be well informed about current events. Half of American can't even identify the Vice - President and I bet we would be lucky if ten percent could identify the Prime Minister of Canada.

Americans are too centric. Part of that is because of our size and location as well the fact that our media seems to be more focused on the Kardashians and sports heroes than events beyond our borders.

Amen to that. There used to be a funny quiz show called "Street Smarts". Never have I laughed so hard at people before.

 

[tar]

As for Trump promoting being anti-estab... is a laff considering his GS connections.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016...new-hires-from-goldman-sachs-alumni-directory

Maybe when he said the bank has “total control” over Hillary he meant it as a compliment?

His presidency will be the most corrupt , how many billionaires did he appoint up to the moment ?

 

[counter_violent]

TexasRangersFan

Just curious ...is the average European as informed as the people on this forum about European politics? Everyone posting in here seems to be well informed about current events. Half of American can't even identify the Vice - President and I bet we would be lucky if ten percent could identify the Prime Minister of Canada.

Americans are too centric. Part of that is because of our size and location as well the fact that our media seems to be more focused on the Kardashians and sports heroes than events beyond our borders.



Sadly, most people in most countries are not well informed, but the US surely comes top of that particular league.
Big govt likes to keep everyone dumb, hence the rise of media trivia to keep the masses in their place.
If Trump only succeeds at One thing, it would be to make ensure that he does drain that Washington swamp. A return to founding principles.



A proper anti-swamp agenda should consist of two things. First, and most fundamentally, it should seek to reduce the size of the federal government, and cut regulations and make them as simple as possible. The more government does, the more incentive every special interest has to hire swamp creatures, for both protection and advantage. And the more complex government is, the more opportunity those creatures have to thrive in niches unknown or poorly understood by everyone except insiders.

Second, and more specifically, the federal government should be wrenched out of its cozy relationship with large, established businesses and institutions in areas ranging from health care to finance to education.

 

[darktone]

How is a NO vote and exit from the EU going to help Italy?

If for no other reason than ditching the euro having their own money again would be a

 

[Fugazsy]

You need to watch those guys (M5S).

They have already change the face of Italian politics (not easy task, believe me).

They do not believe in professional politics, after two mandate you need go back in doing something else or what you were doing before.

They do not take money from the government like all the other political parties and they cut their own wages as politician and give it to new business starters.

They are real fighters and monitor everything making it difficult for the rest to make dirty deals (which was the norm before).

I would not be surprise if similar movements will spring as well in the rest of the globe.

 

[counter_violent]

You need to watch those guys (M5S).

They have already change the face of Italian politics (not easy task, believe me).

They do not believe in professional politics, after two mandate you need go back in doing something else or what you were doing before.

They do not take money from the government like all the other political parties and they cut their own wages as politician and give it to new business starters.

They are real fighters and monitor everything making it difficult for the rest to make dirty deals (which was the norm before).

I would not be surprise if similar movements will spring as well in the rest of the globe.

Very interesting Fugs, I've been having similar thoughts for years. How to design a cooperative system that includes, investors, workers, shareholding, community etc, that cuts out crony capital and govt.

M5S
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/10/economist-explains-22

 

[Atilla]

If for no other reason than ditching the euro having their own money again would be a

It will be back to inflation, falling Lira, more inflation and re-distribution of wealth and more turmoil.

fwiw - I'd recommend the efficiency and discipline of the Germans to that of the Italians or the French.

People have short memories.

 

[Atilla]

Very interesting Fugs, I've been having similar thoughts for years. How to design a cooperative system that includes, investors, workers, shareholding, community etc, that cuts out crony capital and govt.

M5S
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/10/economist-explains-22

Have you done any serious work on this. I'd be happy to contribute.

Sounds like you are a closet tree hugger in some respects.

Why not live in a commune for a short while to see what sparks fly in your appreciation of work and reward. :idea:

I say this sincerely as it will open your eyes to experiences and rewards, connecting people you'll see how what works and what does not.

 

[darktone]

It will be back to inflation, falling Lira, more inflation and re-distribution of wealth and more turmoil.

fwiw - I'd recommend the efficiency and discipline of the Germans to that of the Italians or the French.

People have short memories.

They would have control of their money supply back. Theyd have an opportunity to do something different.
I like to think the Italians would rather chance that over 'we are robbing you!'.

People fear change n cant see past the past

 

[Fugazsy]

Very interesting Fugs, I've been having similar thoughts for years. How to design a cooperative system that includes, investors, workers, shareholding, community etc, that cuts out crony capital and govt.

M5S
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/10/economist-explains-22

That is good article from the economist.

Yes it is difficult to run the city of Roma, but one has to understated Roma is a huge mess and it will take time. Different story for Torino because it is not in such mess.

Both Majors are women, the major of Roma refuse rightly to participate in the bid of the next Olympics because not considered essential for the time being. (the debts is very high due to the past governance)

Of course that decision has not being taken nicely by the usual crooks establishment which normally take a big share in the "business" where businesses and politicians blend together, and here you have the modern notion of "cosa nostra".

Relationship also with the Vatican (another bunch of parasites) do not seems very warm, which is a good signal.

Said that is not going to be easy because the b@stards have deep pockets but the awareness is gently shifting .

This is what is all about, the classic politicians do not represent us anymore and they probably never did, they only create more problems, the people participation needs to expand to embrace many and take their own destiny in their own hands. This is what I am taking about when I say there is a new evolution coming out from the western world, people had enough, we need a change and they are moving.

And Brexit is the first pragmatic move towards that, I am not sure about Trump, I think he will reign and fail just like Berlusconi did, but it will be a step towards that awareness that brings participation.

 

[counter_violent]

That is good article from the economist.

Yes it is difficult to run the city of Roma, but one has to understated Roma is a huge mess and it will take time. Different story for Torino because it is not in such mess.

Both Majors are women, the major of Roma refuse rightly to participate in the bid of the next Olympics because not considered essential for the time being. (the debts is very high due to the past governance)

Of course that decision has not being taken nicely by the usual crooks establishment which normally take a big share in the "business" where businesses and politicians blend together, and here you have the modern notion of "cosa nostra".

Relationship also with the Vatican (another bunch of parasites) do not seems very warm, which is a good signal.

Said that is not going to be easy because the b@stards have deep pockets but the awareness is gently shifting .

This is what is all about, the classic politicians do not represent us anymore and they probably never did, they only create more problems, the people participation needs to expand to embrace many and take their own destiny in their own hands. This is what I am taking about when I say there is a new evolution coming out from the western world, people had enough, we need a change and they are moving.

And Brexit is the first pragmatic move towards that, I am not sure about Trump, I think he will reign and fail just like Berlusconi did, but it will be a step towards that awareness that brings participation.

I can't for the life of me understand all these people who want things to remain the same. It's obvious that things are not working as they should, and yet they offer up no new thinking and seem quite content to put up with over regulation, barriers to entry, crony corporate capitalism, corruption, the list is endless !

The difference now is, nobody on this side of the divide is listening to them