Italy leaving the EU

[forker]

I think you got it right, but my perception is that if he resign nothing will go in turmoil, it is just part of the scaring campaign made by some media, just at it was made prior to Brexit and the US elections

If he resigned (I doubt he will, he is like Pinocchio), they will appoint a brief technical government before and finally we will have democratic election, maybe due in six months time. If the M5S wins those election they will call the people for a referendum to stay or leave.

If they decide to leave then the European Union is at risk.

But before it I think the new possible government (M5s) will try to talk with the EU about renegotiate some deals including having a different euro based on the strength of the economy......and many other issues.

Don't underestimate the scare campaign or the level that people will go to in their discontent with the outcome.

 

[Fugazsy]

This is another major F-up imo. It is almost out doing the Brexit referendum in its magnitude on what exactly are the Italian people voting on.

Is it to change the constitution?

Is it to get Renzi out?

Is it to get Italy out of the Euro?

Is it to get Italy to renogiate a new EU relationship?

Is it a protest vote against the establishment - what ever that means to anyone who has some gripe against politicians and bereaurcrats?


Someone should read what referendum's are about and how they should be conducted and formulated. Good practice and all that integrity business.


Brexit was the same. Did the people vote to;

Leave the EU

Stop illegal migration

Stop free movement of people

Stop free movement of labour

Leave the single market

Stop contributing

Stop international trade being regulated with directives from the EU


These are conflicting objectives.


I fear Italy going down the same route.


Just very p155 poor way to conduct politics and referendum. Asking disenfranchised and not very well informed or educated people to make a decisions on all this complicated stuff in response to a global crises impacting just about every nation on the planet.


Good luck to the Italians 👍

The mistake Renzi made on this referendum was to personalize it, when the polls where in his favor he said: if the NO vote wins I will resign and get out entirely of politics"

Well....since then the polls have shifted ( Hello, anybody there?)....strangely now he is not sure he will quit (welcome to the world of professional politician)...

In doing so he has divide in country in two.

If you call a referendum to reform the constitution which was put together by all the parts at the time (right, left, monarchs, republicans...) you cannot divide the country, the constitution is the mother of all the legislation.

Beside this government is not elected, it cannot modify the constitution.

 

[Pat494]

Looks like he is about to do a David Cameron mistake. And will have to resign.

A pity the idiots in Brussels didn't put together a club worth joining. I doubt they will get a second chance at it.

 

[Atilla]

The mistake Renzi made on this referendum was to personalize it, when the polls where in his favor he said: if the NO vote wins I will resign and get out entirely of politics"

Well....since then the polls have shifted ( Hello, anybody there?)....strangely now he is not sure he will quit (welcome to the world of professional politician)...

In doing so he has divide in country in two.

If you call a referendum to reform the constitution which was put together by all the parts at the time (right, left, monarchs, republicans...) you cannot divide the country, the constitution is the mother of all the legislation.

Beside this government is not elected, it cannot modify the constitution.

Thank you Fugazsy and that was pretty much my point. What is the referendum about?

It is about changing the way constitution and politics work in Italy!


I hear and agree about Renzi, typical politician gets carried away with his ego and extension of his poweress until he falls flat on his face or sword which ever.


I think the way the debate is going, the Italian referendum is in danger of being hijacked by UK Eurosceptics, Right Wing fascists (inluding France and Austria).


If you say he like our PM Theresa May is not elected then the referendum sounds like one which is advisory for an elected Italian PM to consider in Parliament.


Need to bring some control, light and simplification to the fevour which is gripping some people. Otherwise, Italy will just be another tool for other peoples political plays.


I would also put it to you, with the Italian constitution and regions what they are, you may find you are giving a bigger platform to Giovanni Roversi and similar to our UK you'll have a Scotland and a Wales on your door step.


Blaming Germany and the EU has nothing to do with this referendum.

 

[Pat494]

Is there a cushion for the referendum ? Say a 10% majority is needed to change things ? Or will it be a simple majority and a simple mistake like Cameron made ?

 

[forker]

Is there a cushion for the referendum ? Say a 10% majority is needed to change things ? Or will it be a simple majority and a simple mistake like Cameron made ?

A simple majority works for elections.

 

[Pat494]

A Garibaldi quote is:-

Give me the ready hand rather than the ready tongue.

Dammi la mano pronta piuttosto che la lingua pronta

 

[counter_violent]

Thank you Fugazsy and that was pretty much my point. What is the referendum about?

It is about changing the way constitution and politics work in Italy!


I hear and agree about Renzi, typical politician gets carried away with his ego and extension of his poweress until he falls flat on his face or sword which ever.


I think the way the debate is going, the Italian referendum is in danger of being hijacked by UK Eurosceptics, Right Wing fascists (inluding France and Austria).


If you say he like our PM Theresa May is not elected then the referendum sounds like one which is advisory for an elected Italian PM to consider in Parliament.


Need to bring some control, light and simplification to the fevour which is gripping some people. Otherwise, Italy will just be another tool for other peoples political plays.


I would also put it to you, with the Italian constitution and regions what they are, you may find you are giving a bigger platform to Giovanni Roversi and similar to our UK you'll have a Scotland and a Wales on your door step.


Blaming Germany and the EU has nothing to do with this referendum.

So what you're saying is, those poor politicians don't like plebs playing politics !

Personally, I think it's hilarious. How dare those plebs out politic the professionals. 😆

Back in 2008 when the sh1t hit the fan, the politicians somehow managed to divert attention away from themselves and onto the banks. The banks were only partly to blame. The simple fact is that politicians are supposed to set a suitable economic regulatory framework in which everyone can operate. Additionally, they are supposed to be fit and proper people and run the country on a budget, not on endless unlimited credit.

Well, the public are now setting the agenda and for any politicians who refuse to listen, then they can expect to be toast ! That includes all those who think they are above it. (EU)

I wrote about all this back in 2008. Some of us knew exactly where this would end up, and here we are, getting closer and closer to the day of reckoning.

 

[dbphoenix]

Well, the public are now setting the agenda and for any politicians who refuse to listen, then they can expect to be toast ! That includes all those who think they are above it. (EU)

Unfortunately, the public has no idea how we got here, so its agenda is essentially busywork, the sort of thing one gives to children on a road trip.

 

[Fugazsy]

Thank you Fugazsy and that was pretty much my point. What is the referendum about?

It is about changing the way constitution and politics work in Italy!


I hear and agree about Renzi, typical politician gets carried away with his ego and extension of his poweress until he falls flat on his face or sword which ever.


I think the way the debate is going, the Italian referendum is in danger of being hijacked by UK Eurosceptics, Right Wing fascists (inluding France and Austria).


If you say he like our PM Theresa May is not elected then the referendum sounds like one which is advisory for an elected Italian PM to consider in Parliament.


Need to bring some control, light and simplification to the fevour which is gripping some people. Otherwise, Italy will just be another tool for other peoples political plays.


I would also put it to you, with the Italian constitution and regions what they are, you may find you are giving a bigger platform to Giovanni Roversi and similar to our UK you'll have a Scotland and a Wales on your door step.


Blaming Germany and the EU has nothing to do with this referendum.

Atilla

Thank you for your post.

You cannot compare England to Italy.

Institutions in England are a guarantee, in Italy they are considerate the enemy and rightly. Renzi is a continuation of that, he does not care about the constitution not the people, what he cares about as it is clear evident is to protect his personal motivations. Italy does not need those kind of people anymore, Italy is in great difficulty.

This vote is about the constitutions but not only, Renzi was placed there and he needed a plebiscite which he did not have and when the polls where in his favor he personalized the referendum to get that plebiscite which nobody gave him in the first place but the Germans.

You cannot change the mother of all the legislation if you do not have a plebiscite mandate. It is unconstitutional.

The last thing the Italian needs is a modification of the constitution, what they need is jobs. 400 business people took their lives as a consequence of this situation. Even in a city like Milan find a job is a bit of a nightmare.
http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronache/oltre-400-suicidi-stato-renzi-unaltra-barbarie-1338003.html

The so called " average people" are not stupid, they are taking this as an opportunity to get rid of the parasites.
I doubt they will because the b@stards gave deep pockets.

They got rid of Berlusconi (which was the last prime minister voted by the people) because he started to require better deals and was talking to the Germans keeping his head up. (How dare you?)

I tried to give you guys as much information as I could on the subject being an Italian, of course I have added my own personal perception to it, but without it I think would have been less interesting .

Your Fugs.

 

[Atilla]

So what you're saying is, those poor politicians don't like plebs playing politics !

Personally, I think it's hilarious. How dare those plebs out politic the professionals. 😆

Back in 2008 when the sh1t hit the fan, the politicians somehow managed to divert attention away from themselves and onto the banks. The banks were only partly to blame. The simple fact is that politicians are supposed to set a suitable economic regulatory framework in which everyone can operate. Additionally, they are supposed to be fit and proper people and run the country on a budget, not on endless unlimited credit.

Well, the public are now setting the agenda and for any politicians who refuse to listen, then they can expect to be toast ! That includes all those who think they are above it. (EU)

I wrote about all this back in 2008. Some of us knew exactly where this would end up, and here we are, getting closer and closer to the day of reckoning.

This is really rich coming from you, the super Thatcherite fan and all the deregulation big bang she and your lot supported keeping in step with the USA

You are such a ridiculous turncoat.

No consistency or credibility in your words. Shame on you CV.

Even the political expense fraud scandal is her doing as a way of avoiding paying inflation busting wage increases to politicians.

You need to stick to your principals and not go with the flavour of the month. S

 

[Atilla]

Atilla

Thank you for your post.

You cannot compare England to Italy.

Institutions in England are a guarantee, in Italy they are considerate the enemy and rightly. Renzi is a continuation of that, he does not care about the constitution not the people, what he cares about as it is clear evident is to protect his personal motivations. Italy does not need those kind of people anymore, Italy is in great difficulty.

This vote is about the constitutions but not only, Renzi was placed there and he needed a plebiscite which he did not have and when the polls where in his favor he personalized the referendum to get that plebiscite which nobody gave him in the first place but the Germans.

You cannot change the mother of all the legislation if you do not have a plebiscite mandate. It is unconstitutional.

The last thing the Italian needs is a modification of the constitution, what they need is jobs. 400 business people took their lives as a consequence of this situation. Even in a city like Milan find a job is a bit of a nightmare.
http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/cronache/oltre-400-suicidi-stato-renzi-unaltra-barbarie-1338003.html

The so called " average people" are not stupid, they are taking this as an opportunity to get rid of the parasites.
I doubt they will because the b@stards gave deep pockets.

They got rid of Berlusconi (which was the last prime minister voted by the people) because he started to require better deals and was talking to the Germans keeping his head up. (How dare you?)

I tried to give you guys as much information as I could on the subject being an Italian, of course I have added my own personal perception to it, but without it I think would have been less interesting .

Your Fugs.

You may already know reputable insititutions are now under attack in the UK.

Daily Mail a national newspaper is attacking judges for ruling that Parliament must debate and vote on invoking article 50.

The protest mob seem to think the adivosry referendum is in effect constitutional law and Theresa May can go ahead and do what ever to negotiate and accept/reject anything and everything a few power hungry politicians think is acceptable.


Judges need to be independent and not elected or bi-partisan so it beggars belief what on earth Daily Mail is trying to make. Some politicians support the Daily Mail saying judges aren't elected by the people and because people voted on the referendum this trumps their verdict.

Trial by media. Shocking. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ess-sun-uk-newspapers-condemned-a7396961.html

This is like the highest court in the land is under judgement by the politically biased press saying judges are politically biased. If it wasn't so serious it would be hillariously funny. :!:

 

[Atilla]

That's a relief...

Austria presidential election: Far-right's Hofer defeated

 

[sminicooper]

Where were the judges when our ruling elite over the last decades gave away sovereignty of the UK Parliament to Brussels? Did the current lot who now request their assistance consult them then? It's rather rich that the people who gave away our sovereignty find it now rather convenient to insist that the judges, in this case, restore it. That's politics for you🙄

 

[Atilla]

Where were the judges when our ruling elite over the last decades gave away sovereignty of the UK Parliament to Brussels? Did the current lot who now request their assistance consult them then? It's rather rich that the people who gave away our sovereignty find it now rather convenient to insist that the judges, in this case, restore it. That's politics for you🙄

Those agreements were negotiated and agreed by Parliament and HoLs.

They weren't debated by the media circus and voted on by referendums.


There is a major difference. :!:

 

[Pat494]

I prefer democracy generally to autocracy but it has happened that the masses can make disastrous choices - like Hitler in the 1930s. Even after he had written a book explaining his foul policies. I think the general public were so disgusted with the incompetent politicians that they were willing to go along with any alternative.
Could happen again. Maybe The Supreme Court should rule out the extremists.

 

[forker]

I prefer democracy generally to autocracy but it has happened that the masses can make disastrous choices - like Hitler in the 1930s. Even after he had written a book explaining his foul policies. I think the general public were so disgusted with the incompetent politicians that they were willing to go along with any alternative.
Could happen again. Maybe The Supreme Court should rule out the extremists.

What's your definition of bad choices

 

[sminicooper]

I prefer democracy generally to autocracy but it has happened that the masses can make disastrous choices - like Hitler in the 1930s. Even after he had written a book explaining his foul policies. I think the general public were so disgusted with the incompetent politicians that they were willing to go along with any alternative.
Could happen again. Maybe The Supreme Court should rule out the extremists.

Unelected judges deciding who is extremist? Our elected representatives make the law: judges enforce it.

 

[tar]

That's a relief...

Austria presidential election: Far-right's Hofer defeated

Trend broken ...

 

[counter_violent]

Trend broken ...

Stop run......