Having an edge.

[the blades]

that is a very good post Socrates. thank you.

ok, let me be remotely serious for once. Jacinto, what do you find useful about Soc's post above? It's clear that some "get it" and some don't (Soc's posts that is, and clearly I don't). All I read is mystical babble. So the chart sings to him. What will you, or anyone, do next with that?

I'm not digging - I'm genuinely interested to understand what others "see" in this as this is the theme of the vast majority of Soc's posts and the source of such controversy on these boards.

UTB

 

[SOCRATES]

There is a lull in the proceedings because it is lunchtime, so I have a few minutes to continue...

You accurately define that much of this is undefinable. This is simply because it is experiential. The mechanical aspect is not experiential, it is academic.

The academic foundation is fundamentally the bedrock to progress, but many people disregard this fundamental truth and neglect the careful attention this formative preparation requires. They just want to make millions immediately.

Some are just lucky. They go long in a roaring bull market and of course everything they buy goes up and they make a profit. But when conditions change they get lost.
This is as a consequence of neglecting the academic foundation which is the cornerstone of formative preparation. This neglect is due to many reasons, but mainly impatience, ego, and the futile search for shortcuts, which do not exist, plus, I may add disregarding the experience of all who have gone before us, whose advice and wisdom it is foolish to ignore, and this includes dereliction of risk assesment and the practical application of using stops, for example.

Once the mechanical agenda is completed, then is when the real work starts.

This new work that has to be done is what people do not like. They do not like it at all. This is because it involves submission. Successful individuals in other fields of endeavour do not like submission. They do not take to the idea kindly, or even constructively. They do not view the requirement as necessary. They consider themselves exempt from having to undergo merciless and impartial self audit in order to eradicate all the goblins that trip them up.

When the goblins appear...it is someone else's fault...and not theirs...

But those who take on the goblins and overcome them, finally succeed.

At this stage, new horizons appear....are revealed.

This is the stage at which edges are developed....but if you read very carefully what I have explained to you...you will understand that these edges are earned. Because they are earned, that happens because the process is experiential, not just by attaining mechanical proficiency, but by attaining proficiency of self.

And therefore because proficiency of self is the ultimate piece that completes the jigsaw puzzle, and because the great majority do not view the route and the work and the effort and all the unpleasant, painful, disappointing, disheartening experienes as a process of elimination but instead as interminable obstacles and additionally because of the great temptations placed in the way of all traders to become distracted from the ultimate prize, then you can understand why it is undefinable except if you have experienced all of this yourself.

As what you mention is quite rightly undefinable, for the reasons above additionally it is unexplainable, or at least, very difficult if not impossible to explain in mainstream terms.

oops ! some more....by..

 

[the blades]

There is a lull in the proceedings because it is lunchtime, so I have a few minutes to continue...

You accurately define that much of this is undefinable. This is simply because it is experiential. The mechanical aspect is not experiential, it is academic.

The academic foundation is fundamentally the bedrock to progress, but many people disregard this fundamental truth and neglect the careful attention this formative preparation requires. They just want to make millions immediately.

Some are just lucky. They go long in a roaring bull market and of course everything they buy goes up and they make a profit. But when conditions change they get lost.
This is as a consequence of neglecting the academic foundation which is the cornerstone of formative preparation. This neglect is due to many reasons, but mainly impatience, ego, and the futile search for shortcuts, which do not exist, plus, I may add disregarding the experience of all who have gone before us, whose advice and wisdom it is foolish to ignore, and this includes dereliction of risk assesment and the practical application of using stops, for example.

Once the mechanical agenda is completed, then is when the real work starts.

This new work that has to be done is what people do not like. They do not like it at all. This is because it involves submission. Successful individuals in other fields of endeavour do not like submission. They do not take to the idea kindly, or even constructively. They do not view the requirement as necessary. They consider themselves exempt from having to undergo merciless and impartial self audit in order to eradicate all the goblins that trip them up.

When the goblins appear...it is someone else's fault...and not theirs...

But those who take on the goblins and overcome them, finally succeed.

At this stage, new horizons appear....are revealed.

This is the stage at which edges are developed....but if you read very carefully what I have explained to you...you will understand that these edges are earned. Because they are earned, that happens because the process is experiential, not just by attaining mechanical proficiency, but by attaining proficiency of self.

And therefore because proficiency of self is the ultimate piece that completes the jigsaw puzzle, and because the great majority do not view the route and the work and the effort and all the unpleasant, painful, disappointing, disheartening experienes as a process of elimination but instead as interminable obstacles and additionally because of the great temptations placed in the way of all traders to become distracted from the ultimate prize, then you can understand why it is undefinable except if you have experienced all of this yourself.

As what you mention is quite rightly undefinable, for the reasons above additionally it is unexplainable, or at least, very difficult if not impossible to explain in mainstream terms.

oops ! some more....by..

hmmm. I'm concerned. Some of that made sense to me

Thank-you Soc (seriously )

UTB

 

[JTrader]

Hi SOCRATES.

See this picture?

Thats you that is. Thats you in your dancing clothes. Thats you in your finest saturday night attire!

Seriously though. This is what i picture you to look like!

.

 

[rols]

Hi SOCRATES.

See this picture?

Thats you that is. Thats you in your dancing clothes. Thats you in your finest saturday night attire!

Seriously though. This is what i picture you to look like anyway!

.

I think you've been reading too much Harry Potter.

Congrats on another fine contribution.

These boards would not be the same without you!

 

[jacinto]

ok, let me be remotely serious for once. Jacinto, what do you find useful about Soc's post above? It's clear that some "get it" and some don't (Soc's posts that is, and clearly I don't). All I read is mystical babble. So the chart sings to him. What will you, or anyone, do next with that?

I'm not digging - I'm genuinely interested to understand what others "see" in this as this is the theme of the vast majority of Soc's posts and the source of such controversy on these boards.

UTB

sure no problem. i have copied Socrates' post (cuting a bit in some paragraphs) and removed the purple (my editing abilities are not good, so sorry, and if Socrates wants his original post in this quote, i apologise for editing my take, i will replace with no problems)

About darksiding:~

It is like being able to read music. And when you are able to read music you can anticipate what the next note and indeed the next phrase is going to be, because it is part of musicianship.

Anybody can hum a tune and in the correct key if they are not tone deaf, and this tune can be hummed to a beat, that is in time, and loudness and softness can be introduced, and pauses and phrases inserted.....but reading from sheet music and doing this is true musicianship....which is what darksiding at base level really is.

this is an analogy. I have always liked analogies because the prepare the mind to grasp a concept. it is personal, yes.

The same happens with price bars or candles and volume bars. It is like reading music off a sheet.

The thing is, that darksiding does not start until the charts "talk" or "sing" u c ?

My goal in trading is this, to be able to trade based off price only. so this interests me.

And like musicianship, the next note and the next phrase can be intuitively anticipated accurately, often many bars ahead of the present bar. We are not yet talking about futurology, that is much further down the line, but you can already see that at a purely mechanical level chart reading in advance of the event is possible.

I dont know about others, but in a rather inconsistent manner, I have experienced this in my trades. it has happened when i am focused and detached from every emotion, every opinion, and i just watch price act and react at certain levels, see how it blinks up, down up down, and i know it is time to get in. when this happens, my trade is in profit from the word go. so, i know what he means, but i cant do it all the time.

What I have just explained is a rock bottom basic skill that a trader using charts has to develop. If these attempts are cluttered by signals, and lines and other harnesses it makes the progression very difficult because all this ironmongery serves to distract.

I like this part because it tells me what I already know i must go and acquire, or enhance if i already have, but for some reason i am not doing it. I am aware of that weakness i have, yet i am seeing it written. this is of a lot of value for me.

Much further down the line....and as a consequence of becoming an expert....the loom of an edge begins to form.....this is as a consequence of having many realisations at a very high level of awareness about what one is in...and this edge becomes honed and refined and improved and finally perfected, and this is the permanent edge I talked about earlier...sorry action stations, back later

and this is where i think the post is worth its weight in gold.

that is my taking of Socrates' post.

again, this is my taking, and probably other people wont see it.

j

 

[Hoggums]

hmmm. I'm concerned. Some of that made sense to me

Thank-you Soc (seriously )

UTB

I have to say for once that Socs - I am impressed with your postings. I am a musician and I can identify with what he was saying about sensing where the music/charts are going to go next. However sometimes the composer does throw in an unexpected key change or accidental! I play a stringed instrument and you have to get the knack of reading ahead because how you finger the next note depends on where you need to be to play the following notes - I'm sure you could draw parallels in trading.

Anyway I think the most useful point socs made is that, automation/mechanisation doesn't work in the long run. Experience and practise does. There is no quick route unless you are incredibly gifted or lucky. For most of use that means experimentation - failure - reassessment - experimentation ad infinitum, with each iteration becoming more successful.

 

[options]

At last.

A post that makes sense form Soco.

But why edit it Jac?

It should be left in its' entirety. For clarity. For those that can see it and for those that can't.

 

[rols]

and this is where i think the post is worth its weight in gold.

that is my taking of Socrates' post.

again, this is my taking, and probably other people wont see it.

j

So why do people pay to see virtuoso performers?

Because those people are doing something which is almost magical.

They are interpreting marks on a page written by somebody perhaps 100's of years ago, and turning them into beautiful sounds.

Just as the master trader can turn numbers into gold.

Yes, we can observe them doing it, even perceive how they do it.

How great is the distance between this and doing it for ourselves?

 

[JTrader]

So why do people pay to see virtuoso performers?

Because those people are doing something which is almost magical.

They are interpreting marks on a page written by somebody perhaps 100's of years ago, and turning them into beautiful sounds.

Just as the master trader can turn numbers into gold.

Yes, we can observe them doing it, even perceive how they do it.

How great is the distance between this and doing it for ourselves?

It does also sound like an awful lot of screenwatching, whether tick by tick, or not.

 

[jacinto]

So why do people pay to see virtuoso performers?

Because those people are doing something which is almost magical.

They are interpreting marks on a page written by somebody perhaps 100's of years ago, and turning them into beautiful sounds.

Just as the master trader can turn numbers into gold.

Yes, we can observe them doing it, even perceive how they do it.

How great is the distance between this and doing it for ourselves?

I dont know the distance Rols, i hope i knew, i dont know.

 

[JTrader]

So in essence SOCRATES, are you saying that no-one besides ourselves (including you) can help us to find the permanent edge?
Thus, the permanent edge is something we have to find completely for ourselves?

Thanks.

 

[chump]

"automation/mechanisation doesn't work in the long run. Experience and practise does."...
disagree ,they are not mutually incompatible. Most successful mechanisation still derives from experience and is market knowledge based...the distinction is people are different by temperament...some have the market knowledge but not the temperament to be discretionary...if they tried their psychology for want of a better term would be unsuitable...on the otherside of the coin someone wired to be a discretionary trader would be most unlikely to succeed through a trading system that was mainly automated.
Both however may have all the requisite market knowledge they need to succeed ,but the key is the self knowledge to direct it appropriately. In that respect I don't think I am too far away from what was already being said.
Someone asked for another word for 'edge' ...it's 'experience' where "experience" incorporates both technical knowledge and self knowledge and the latter directs the former as to what is likely to be the best personal approach to making money.

 

[rols]

I dont know the distance Rols, i hope i knew, i dont know.

Not only according to Dr. Janice....

http://www.thetradingdoctor.com/pdf/ThisIsYourBrainOnTrading.pdf

The average time and effort required to achieve expertise in trading is 10 years and 10,000-20,000 hours
of practice. Moreover, it is the quality of the practice, the complete immersion in the subject and the
ability to profit through ever-changing market cycles that separates trading winners from losers. It takes
a lot of falling down, making mistakes, learning, re-learning and getting up again to make an expert
trader. Most of all, it takes pure passion and total commitment to the process.

but also recent studies by cognitive neuro scientists suggest there is an average figure of 10,000 hours to become an expert/professional in fields requiring great skill, whether it be music, golf, chess or trading.

While it is quite enjoyable to be an amateur at music or golf, being an amateur at trading can be an expensive and time consuming pursuit.

 

[jacinto]

So in essence SOCRATES, are you saying that no-one besides ourselves (including you) can help us to find the permanent edge?
Thus, the permanent edge is something we have to find completely for ourselves?

Thanks.

sorry for answering this, but i think the answer to that would be yes.

 

[Hoggums]

Not only according to Dr. Janice....

http://www.thetradingdoctor.com/pdf/ThisIsYourBrainOnTrading.pdf

The average time and effort required to achieve expertise in trading is 10 years and 10,000-20,000 hours
of practice. Moreover, it is the quality of the practice, the complete immersion in the subject and the
ability to profit through ever-changing market cycles that separates trading winners from losers. It takes
a lot of falling down, making mistakes, learning, re-learning and getting up again to make an expert
trader. Most of all, it takes pure passion and total commitment to the process.

but also recent studies by cognitive neuro scientists suggest there is an average figure of 10,000 hours to become an expert/professional in fields requiring great skill, whether it be music, golf, chess or trading.

While it is quite enjoyable to be an amateur at music or golf, being an amateur at trading can be an expensive and time consuming pursuit.

You can burn an awful lot of money in 10,000 hours of trading!

 

[grantx]

Analogies, similies, metaphors, abstractions - so what's wrong with the tangible? Why constant evasion of the concrete?

Bad judgement and sycophancy seem to be taking over, here.

I wonder if this will also be deleted.

Grant.

 

[black bear]

So in essence SOCRATES, are you saying that no-one besides ourselves (including you) can help us to find the permanent edge?
Thus, the permanent edge is something we have to find completely for ourselves?

Thanks.

For me thats it, we only have our own experiences and in built ability levels, we just have to except them and build the best EDGE we can,

I think its useful to remember to become good at any activity or trade you have to practice your skill for many hours in an atmosphere thats going to help you advance. you can only in most cases become as good as the people in your own workplace, pehaps build on it a little. I was told that is the reason why once an apprentice became time served, he or she would be let go so they could move out into the world and advance their skills and obtain the required EDGE in their chosen trade. Everyone gained.

 

[Profitaker]

Massive confusion here as to what exactly constitutes an "edge". Amongst other qualifiers, if it can't be articulated it isn't an edge.

 

[SOCRATES]

So in essence SOCRATES, are you saying that no-one besides ourselves (including you) can help us to find the permanent edge?
Thus, the permanent edge is something we have to find completely for ourselves?

Thanks.

Ultimately, and emphatically, yes.
Everything has to come from within.

This is why a lot of people get frustrated and angry and rude and so on..

The start to get reactive and so overheated as to be practically radioactive when this fundamental truth is laid out, and they become vociferous detractors.

But if they can disconnect themselves emotionally from the frustrations that beset them and focus properly and intensely, and if they are truly honest in their endeavour to search within themselves they will find they are not trying hard enough to iron out the faults inherent in their own humanity, and then, and only then can they then set themselves on the road to achievement.

Then the few who are brave enough and determined enough and responsible enough who embark on this mission are the ones who succeed and end up developing a permanent edge. The rest have successes of sorts but never attain a really permanent edge.