Having an edge.

[Profitaker]

Socrates

You are describing an acquired skill, which is totally different to edge. It may help if you actually defined what you mean by "edge".

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates

You are describing an acquired skill, which is totally different to edge. It may help if you actually defined what you mean by "edge".

A premanent edge is the ability to recognise if and when an advantage is presented, and first of all to be able to recognise with unerring certainty the most likely order of magnitude of success in advance of a committment being made, or the contrary.

Then also at the same time an escape route is visualised in case the result delivered ultimately is the opposite of the one expected or even if it is not, but not up to expectations in volatile or unreliable scenarios.

And all of this in a flash, much more quickly in thought that can be expressed in words (because there is no time to dither or consult notes).

Additionally this ability contains within it several components that must be evenly balanced and harmonious to each other, briefly, firstly a deep resource of knowledge and expertise upon which to draw unerringly and immediately without hesitation or doubt.

Secondly a specifically developed and honed armoury of skill sets each developed and perfected to deal with separate scenarios.

Thirdly the ability to remain calm and impartial and devoid of all emotion whatsoever.

Fourthly the developed faculty to be able to futurologise.

Fifthly the ability to respond in a nanosecond if necessary by snap response to a given unexpected development if necessary.

Sixthly the maintenance and suspension of a supercooled mental state combining total alertness total relaxation and total imparitality and to be able to sustain this supercooled mental state indefinitely on command, at will, without effort for however long it is needed.

These six things have to be done at the same time, so we are talking of multitasking of the highest order.

A temporary edge is a minor version of the fully fledged and refined faculties described above and pertaining to anomalies or situations that are known not to be reliable in the sense they are not likely to persist for significant periods of time which present opportunities that are there for the taking, but only for the properly skilled.

 

[jacinto]

A premanent edge is the ability to recognise if and when an advantage is presented, and first of all to be able to recognise with unerring certainty the most likely order of magnitude of success in advance of a committment being made, or the contrary.

Then also at the same time an escape route is visualised in case the result delivered ultimately is the opposite of the one expected or even if it is not, but not up to expectations in volatile or unreliable scenarios.

And all of this in a flash, much more quickly in thought that can be expressed in words (because there is no time to dither or consult notes).

Additionally this ability contains within it several components that must be evenly balanced and harmonious to each other, briefly, firstly a deep resource of knowledge and expertise upon which to draw unerringly and immediately without hesitation or doubt.

Secondly a specifically developed and honed armoury of skill sets each developed and perfected to deal with separate scenarios.

Thirdly the ability to remain calm and impartial and devoid of all emotion whatsoever.

Fourthly the developed faculty to be able to futurologise.

Fifthly the ability to respond in a nanosecond if necessary by snap response to a given unexpected development if necessary.

Sixthly the maintenance and suspension of a supercooled mental state combining total alertness total relaxation and total imparitality and to be able to sustain this supercooled mental state indefinitely on command, at will, without effort for however long it is needed.

These six things have to be done at the same time, so we are talking of multitasking of the highest order.

A temporary edge is a minor version of the fully fledged and refined faculties described above and pertaining to anomalies or situations that are known not to be reliable in the sense they are not likely to persist for significant periods of time which present opportunities that are there for the taking, but only for the properly skilled.

this is another excellent post Socrates. i cannot give you kudos because the system does not allow me (says i got to spread it), so public kudos to you.

 

[SOCRATES]

I forgot to add:~

The holders of permanent edges can add temporary edges without difficulty as "add ons", but not the other way round.

The holders of temporary edges are holders of temprarary edges that dissipate once the temporary advantage disappears.

They cannot leap from being temporary edge holders to permanent edge holders as the chasm that separates one from the other is vast and cannot be jumped in one leap the wrong way round.

 

[black bear]

A premanent edge is the ability to recognise if and when an advantage is presented, and first of all to be able to recognise with unerring certainty the most likely order of magnitude of success in advance of a committment being made, or the contrary.

Then also at the same time an escape route is visualised in case the result delivered ultimately is the opposite of the one expected or even if it is not, but not up to expectations in volatile or unreliable scenarios.

And all of this in a flash, much more quickly in thought that can be expressed in words (because there is no time to dither or consult notes).

Additionally this ability contains within it several components that must be evenly balanced and harmonious to each other, briefly, firstly a deep resource of knowledge and expertise upon which to draw unerringly and immediately without hesitation or doubt.

Secondly a specifically developed and honed armoury of skill sets each developed and perfected to deal with separate scenarios.

Thirdly the ability to remain calm and impartial and devoid of all emotion whatsoever.

Fourthly the developed faculty to be able to futurologise.

Fifthly the ability to respond in a nanosecond if necessary by snap response to a given unexpected development if necessary.

Sixthly the maintenance and suspension of a supercooled mental state combining total alertness total relaxation and total imparitality and to be able to sustain this supercooled mental state indefinitely on command, at will, without effort for however long it is needed.

These six things have to be done at the same time, so we are talking of multitasking of the highest order.

A temporary edge is a minor version of the fully fledged and refined faculties described above and pertaining to anomalies or situations that are known not to be reliable in the sense they are not likely to persist for significant periods of time which present opportunities that are there for the taking, but only for the properly skilled.

This looks very much like an ideal to me ? something perhaps we all should aim at but can never really achieve, unless of course you can supply us with a living example of anyone so perfect.

If such a person or group of persons existed there would be no markets to trade because they would own everything there was to own.

An aquired skill is an EDGE if it enables you to take advantage of an event that without you could not have. If that skill increases and the magnitude of the gain increases then it must be concluded that the skill gives a person a significant EDGE. An aquired skill can be mental or physical or a combination it does not matter.

The other EDGE exists because of an advantage of position in the information chain and no real skill is needed to take advantage. One can gain the required skills to put ones self in both positions and enjoy a well deserved double EDGE.

GILLETTE THE BEST A MAN CAN GET

 

[grantx]

If you can take money from the market, that's your edge. The ideal is consistency by instinct, ie not random.

Or am I missing something more profound amongst the quasi-mystical, pseudo-scientific clap-trap that so enthralls all you acolytes?

Grant.

 

[dbphoenix]

If you can take money from the market, that's your edge. The ideal is consistency by instinct, ie not random.

Or am I missing something more profound amongst the quasi-mystical, pseudo-scientific clap-trap that so enthralls all you acolytes?

Grant.

No, you're not missing anything. And this has all been addressed before. Several times. Always with the same general theme and always with the same result.

For those who'd like to get through it more quickly:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=14317

Db

 

[PKFFW]

May I ?....OK, here goes...

About darksiding:~

It is like being able to read music. And when you are able to read music you can anticipate what the next note and indeed the next phrase is going to be, because it is part of musicianship.

Anybody can hum a tune and in the correct key if they are not tone deaf, and this tune can be hummed to a beat, that is in time, and loudness and softness can be introduced, and pauses and phrases inserted.....but reading from sheet music and doing this is true musicianship....which is what darksiding at base level really is.

When you look at a string of numbers, say for example on a credit card but you do not consciously make the effort to recognise them, that is what they are, just a string of numbers...a jumble.

When you put your attention on them, that is, you look at them properly, suddenly these numbers have names that appear silently in your head, and this allows you to properly identify them and to voice them to someone at the end of a telephone waiting to hear them when you buy something on the phone, for example.

These numbers now have an identity, they have meaning that they did not have before. The same happens with price bars or candles and volume bars. It is like reading music off a sheet.

The thing is, that darksiding does not start until the charts "talk" or "sing" u c ?

And like musicianship, the next note and the next phrase can be intuitively anticipated accurately, often many bars ahead of the present bar. We are not yet talking about futurology, that is much further down the line, but you can already see that at a purely mechanical level chart reading in advance of the event is possible.

What I have just explained is a rock bottom basic skill that a trader using charts has to develop. If these attempts are cluttered by signals, and lines and other harnesses it makes the progression very difficult because all this ironmongery serves to distract.

Much further down the line....and as a consequence of becoming an expert....the loom of an edge begins to form.....this is as a consequence of having many realisations at a very high level of awareness about what one is in...and this edge becomes honed and refined and improved and finally perfected, and this is the permanent edge I talked about earlier...sorry action stations, back later :cheesy:

I realise I shouldn't really bother but can't help myself.........

By this analogy the only ones who could call themselves a musician is one who has attained virtuoso level. I would argue that anyone who can play and create music has the right to call themselves a musician. Of course some will always be better than others. Their music will be more emotive, have more depth and nuance, they will be able to predict other peoples music many bars into the future using "futurology" etc etc. The skill of others being greater than one's own does not in any way diminish one's own skill though.

To liken trading to music as your analogy does I would say that anyone who can consistently make a profit from the market has the right to claim an edge. It may not be as good an edge as a "master trader". Like with music though, the skill of another does not in any way diminish one's own skill.

What you describe later in the thread with your six points is, in my humble opinion, more a description of a "master trader" than an "edge". This thread is about having an edge, not about being a master trader.

To use another example, I consider myself a pretty good poker player. I can consistently make some nice money playing poker. I do not consider myself an expert. I do not consider myself the best. However, that does not mean I can't make good money and wont continue to do so long into the future. By your analogy I have no right to claim an edge because I am not a master. That is sheer nonsense and ego talking.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[PKFFW]

As for the edges you mention to follow on...good old trends, S+R etc., these are nonsense at the level I have in mind, really kindergaten stuff, I am sorry to have to tell you....but there again, absolute beginners have to start somewhere..

Sorry to bring up such an old post too but.........

You claim an edge must be permanent etc etc etc........

You then deride Bramble about trends, S+R etc being "nonsense" and "kindergarten stuff".......

Well 1+1=2 is kindergarten math but is still very much as permanent as advanced level calculus and algebra. By your own definition these things should qualify as an "edge" but for some reason you deride them and belittle those who use them.

Perhaps another example of ego talking?

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[TheBramble]

A premanent edge is the ability to recognise if and when an advantage is presented, and first of all to be able to recognise with unerring certainty the most likely order of magnitude of success in advance of a committment being made, or the contrary.

Then also at the same time an escape route is visualised in case the result delivered ultimately is the opposite of the one expected or even if it is not, but not up to expectations in volatile or unreliable scenarios.

And all of this in a flash, much more quickly in thought that can be expressed in words (because there is no time to dither or consult notes).

Additionally this ability contains within it several components that must be evenly balanced and harmonious to each other, briefly, firstly a deep resource of knowledge and expertise upon which to draw unerringly and immediately without hesitation or doubt.

Secondly a specifically developed and honed armoury of skill sets each developed and perfected to deal with separate scenarios.

Thirdly the ability to remain calm and impartial and devoid of all emotion whatsoever.

Fourthly the developed faculty to be able to futurologise.

Fifthly the ability to respond in a nanosecond if necessary by snap response to a given unexpected development if necessary.

Sixthly the maintenance and suspension of a supercooled mental state combining total alertness total relaxation and total imparitality and to be able to sustain this supercooled mental state indefinitely on command, at will, without effort for however long it is needed.

These six things have to be done at the same time, so we are talking of multitasking of the highest order.

A temporary edge is a minor version of the fully fledged and refined faculties described above and pertaining to anomalies or situations that are known not to be reliable in the sense they are not likely to persist for significant periods of time which present opportunities that are there for the taking, but only for the properly skilled.

Can you illustrate for us by example, how each of these elements were utilised and played out in your recent options trade?

 

[TheBramble]

Sorry to bring up such an old post too but.........

You claim an edge must be permanent etc etc etc........

You then deride Bramble about trends, S+R etc being "nonsense" and "kindergarten stuff".......

Well 1+1=2 is kindergarten math but is still very much as permanent as advanced level calculus and algebra. By your own definition these things should qualify as an "edge" but for some reason you deride them and belittle those who use them.

Perhaps another example of ego talking?

Cheers,
PKFFW

I don't think Bertie was deriding it (maybe he was) he was pointing out it was basic beginner stuff, which it is. Which is a good place for any beginner to start, surely. And serves, for that same reason to be a good basis as part of any scheme which holds the intent of consistently taking money from the market, doesn't it?

 

[TheBramble]

Nightmare

The nightmare for those new to trading or new to this (or any) site is how to distinguish what makes sense right now for what you need.

My advice for those even more unclear than they were a few days ago is to go with what seems to make most sense, go with your instinct.

If you see someone talking about something which you can go and check out and empirically try and test and develop and research, that is going to more useful than something which is amorphous, unclear, veiled and allegorical. No less useful I’m sure for those who can ‘get’ something from it, but no immediate utilisation is possible.

By all means come back and see what you can make of it once you’ve discovered the basic stuff that going to keep you in the game (10,000 hours? 9-10 years hmmmmmm…..) and good luck. In ancient Greece they used to read entrails to determine the future, quite effective, especially for the beast whose entrails were used, as their future was frequently spot on. And some find inspiration from the Bible and others from the Yellow Pages so I’m not about to decry any amount of vacuous and apparently pointless prose, especially my own. The fact is, you’re more likely to free up those deep and difficult to explicate thoughts when your mind is otherwise engaged, brushing your teeth, driving, or reading reams of pointlessness. All are to be recommended in their ability to allow the Unconscious to yield the results of your hidden efforts.

 

[TheBramble]

To sum up those last four posts of mine on this topic:-

Having an edge means being able to tell the difference between what works and what clearly doesn’t work and utilising that difference, while it persists, in a way that produces profits. It means knowing how to effectively use your time and your knowledge. What to use and what not to use.

The ability to create edges is absolutely more important than just having any one specific edge, regardless of its duration…

Creating an edge requires involvement in the mechanics of the structures and methods of the markets and knowledge of the participants in those markets.

 

[black bear]

Sorry to bring up such an old post too but.........

You claim an edge must be permanent etc etc etc........

You then deride Bramble about trends, S+R etc being "nonsense" and "kindergarten stuff".......

Well 1+1=2 is kindergarten math but is still very much as permanent as advanced level calculus and algebra. By your own definition these things should qualify as an "edge" but for some reason you deride them and belittle those who use them.

Perhaps another example of ego talking?

Cheers,
PKFFW

Bang on,

We all agree that the mans posts are elegantly written but they contain no facts at all and are thus worthless, in fact they are less than worthless.

We have a selection of well tried tools to get the job done, it is up to the individual trader to choose which tools he likes and obey the basic rules of trading. When the trader becomes proficient enough to make a profit from his or her trading activities it can be said they have acquired an EDGE.

Deriding Bramble and methods put forward by him or any one else is unexceptable unless you put some detailed methods of your own on the table.

The ideal EDGE described by the self appointed master would take so long to aquire that I for one fail to see the benefit. The high end skills may exist in certain individuals but who cares they are usually accompanied by less desirable qualities and where is the profit and benefit in that ?

 

[barjon]

My primary method falls in the "mechanical" camp so far as entries are concerned. It "works" 60-65% of the time in the sense that the price moves in the direction I want. From this perspective I would say that the the method has an edge (10-15% better than 50-50) and not me personally.

Once in, managing the trade to best advantage is a different story. Getting the most out of a trade is much more difficult to mechanise (if it's possible at all) and relies on my personal skill at reading the market. It seems to me that gaining an edge here is the one that counts and is about being a step ahead of the crowd in the sense of identifying continuation or reversal and in gaining more from the trade (or maybe losing less) than the majority.

imo, it is this trade management edge that is the crucial difference between a break-even trader; a profitable trader; and an extremely profitable trader. I'm still striving for it after 30+ years

good trading

jon

 

[nine]

..............

Once in, managing the trade to best advantage is a different story. Getting the most out of a trade is much more difficult to mechanise (if it's possible at all) and relies on my personal skill at reading the market. It seems to me that gaining an edge here is the one that counts and is about being a step ahead of the crowd in the sense of identifying continuation or reversal and in gaining more from the trade (or maybe losing less) than the majority.
...............

My entry is also primarily mechanical but I think it is almost more important for the management and exit to be mechanical. The reason I suggest this is that once in a trade, if the outcome is at all important to you, then it is more difficult to be rational than before the trade when you have the luxury of being flat.

I think that for new entrants a mechanical exit is probably more important than a mechanical exit.

The discretionary elements for me are two fold. First, my method generates around 20 near entries and 5-10 actual entries a day. By watching the market participants' behaviour after each event I am able to get a price advantage over a straight "buy on signal" approach. Second, by evaluating the strength of trend I can decide to mechanically exit at next resistance with limit orders or trail stops on some or all of the position.

So, for me, discretion tunes the edge for the day's character but doesn't affect the essential go / no go decisions.

 

[new_trader]

Of course you will not point out any of my contradictions of myself because there are not any and you know it. The mere fact you disagree with me does not mean I am being illogical or contradicting myself.

Apology accepted.

Merely explaining your rudeness does no good though. For your apology to truly mean anything though it should be backed up by action. If you are aware of your own tactless, insensitve and rude behaviour then you can change it. The fact you choose not to speaks volumes about your values and character as a person.

When I direct a post towards an individual I am usually interested in their response, not in a response by another individual. In this case, I am no longer interested in a response from either of you.

As for your claim of Socrates genius in the transmission of understanding........well everyone has their own definition of genius I guess just as they seem to have their own definition of edge.

Cheers,
PKFFW

PKFFW,

There is nothing left for me to say, other than to quote the signature Rols uses:

"For those who know, explanation is not necessary. For those who do not, none will suffice."

As for what I said about SOCRATES' ability to transmit understanding. I dare say that the recipient needs to be correctly tuned into the transmission because it is a tacit understanding.

 

[barjon]

My entry is also primarily mechanical but I think it is almost more important for the management and exit to be mechanical. The reason I suggest this is that once in a trade, if the outcome is at all important to you, then it is more difficult to be rational than before the trade when you have the luxury of being flat.

I think that for new entrants a mechanical exit is probably more important than a mechanical exit.

The discretionary elements for me are two fold. First, my method generates around 20 near entries and 5-10 actual entries a day. By watching the market participants' behaviour after each event I am able to get a price advantage over a straight "buy on signal" approach. Second, by evaluating the strength of trend I can decide to mechanically exit at next resistance with limit orders or trail stops on some or all of the position.

So, for me, discretion tunes the edge for the day's character but doesn't affect the essential go / no go decisions.

nine

I agree that exits can also be mechanical, but whether they can give you the best from the trade (and that was my point) is doubtful.

good trading

jon

 

[new_trader]

Bang on,

We all agree that the mans posts are elegantly written but they contain no facts at all and are thus worthless, in fact they are less than worthless.

We have a selection of well tried tools to get the job done, it is up to the individual trader to choose which tools he likes and obey the basic rules of trading. When the trader becomes proficient enough to make a profit from his or her trading activities it can be said they have acquired an EDGE.

Deriding Bramble and methods put forward by him or any one else is unexceptable unless you put some detailed methods of your own on the table.

The ideal EDGE described by the self appointed master would take so long to aquire that I for one fail to see the benefit. The high end skills may exist in certain individuals but who cares they are usually accompanied by less desirable qualities and where is the profit and benefit in that ?

Bang on?? No, WE don't all agree. What qualifies you to make such spurious claims or even to speak on my behalf!? Tools to get the job done? You are missing the point of awareness. I will try to describe it as best I can with an analogy. Don’t try and pick the analogy to pieces, instead try and understand the bigger picture because it is an abstract concept. Imagine a group of people wish to build and successfully launch a rocket into space. They don’t know anything about the laws of physics, or aerodynamics, or gravity or any other fundamentals of science required to achieve their aim, nor do they care to understand them, or perhaps they are unaware they even exist. All they care about is building and launching a rocket as quickly as possible. In other words, they are looking for shortcuts. Through trial and error they discover that certain rocket designs work better than others and so they believe it’s only a matter of time before they discover the ‘perfect’ design which will give them the edge they are searching for. They even manage to convince each other that the perfect rocket design is attainable and it is only a case of working together and co-operating and the design will materialise. During this process, a Physicist observing all this going on tries to help them discover what they need to know before they have a hope of building rockets. They scorn this physicist and regard his input as unnecessary ‘mystical’ nonsense. Grava-what? Aerody-what? Escape ve-what? What is this gibberish they say? Eventually the ‘herd’ may come up with a rocket design that works and they will think that they have an edge that is permanent. Why wouldn’t they? Each rocket launches successfully and even manages to orbit the earth, just the way they want. But it isn’t really a permanent edge because the rocket design will only work on earth. Now remember this is an abstract concept, so being limited to earth is irrelevant. The true physicist, with a permanent edge knows that in order to build a rocket that will work on earth or in fact any planet in the universe, they must understand the laws of physics. The laws of physics are universal and do not change, ever. This is a permanent edge. Do you understand? Building a rocket that works on earth and only on earth is a temporary or minor edge. Understanding the laws of physics is a permanent or major edge. OK? This is why NASA can successfully land a sojourner on MARS, a planet they have never set foot on, using earth bound physics. Now, two different Physicists may come up with different rocket designs, as the Americans and Russians have, but they could trace the design concepts back to the same understanding of physics. This is also why two different physicists, who have never met can understand and communicate concepts that escapes the average herd member looking for shortcuts.

 

[searchlight]

wp=winning percentage
rr=risk/reward ratio

(100-wp)/(wp*rr)=1 Neutral

(100-wp)/(wp*rr)= >1 You Are In Trouble

(100-wp)/(wp*rr)= <1 You Have An EDGE

Searchlight,

pps: the costs are not included.