Greece may exit the Euro ?

[Pat494]

They know the price of everything and the value of nothing

 

[new_trader]

It is not the fact of being "too lazy". It is more to do with not being interested enough. Everything is said to have a value and the Greek , or any other situation, in this capitalist world is priced into the market. hhiusa, being American, would not know anything about that, of course.

Actually, the saying is: "Everything you want in life has a price connected to it." Sometimes abbreviated to "Everything has a price".

Value is more subjective whereas price is more objective.

 

[Atilla]

They know the price of everything and the value of nothing

I think you mentioned it some where before Pat, collateral. :idea:


Lenders have a certain degree of responsibility who ever they are. Reminds me of the American Ninja's. Giving mortgages to No Income No Jobs Americans. Finance sector and republican liberals, blaming Clinton because he asked for it.

Similarly, in their haste to get the club rolling with the new Ecu, some corners were cut and blind eye turned to questions of risk management. I think the punishment should be born out by all parties.


Remember, monies lent were then used to purchase services from companies in EU. I lend you a tenner to buy couple of pints from me and then charge you interest.

If one has not invested that money into productive capacity but consumed, with no further output then even servicing the debt will become an issue.

Two way street. EU needs to tighten it's own money and risk management.



Where I think we do have a real BIG problem is, EU has learnt it's lesson and tightening management of loans but Greece is still in cloud cuckoo land thinking it can keep their finances up same as before.

 

[Splitlink]

Actually, the saying is: "Everything you want in life has a price connected to it." Sometimes abbreviated to "Everything has a price".

Value is more subjective whereas price is more objective.

That is quite true. I remember when one of my sons was a little kid. He had a toy that he was in love with. His grandfather tried to offer him more and more money for it, but my son would have none of it. Money had no value for him, then,

 

[new_trader]

Children understand intrinsic value

That is quite true. I remember when one of my sons was a little kid. He had a toy that he was in love with. His grandfather tried to offer him more and more money for it, but my son would have none of it. Money had no value for him, then,

Actually, your son understood something we all understand as children, and that is intrinisic value. Fiat money has ZERO intrinsic value but we are all forced to accept it as a medium of exchange because of legal tender laws, which no child understands.

If instead his grandfather had tried to ‘buy’ his toy with another toy, or a bag of sweets, or a pushbike, he may have been more successful even if all those items were worth less in fiat money terms than the toy your son loved. As far as your son was concerned, his grandfather was trying to swap pieces of paper for a toy and no child is that stupid, only adults are.

 

[Pat494]

The only hope imho for Greece and other faltering countries is to put up with an authoritarian regime for 10 years to get them back on track.
1. Rigourisly stamp out crime and corruption
2. Require all domestically owned foreign assets to be declared to the country or are forfeited plus loss of domicile status for any who refuse.
3. The wealth is shared out fairly. Not equally but fairly so effort is rewarded.
4. Tourism and inward investment encouraged.
4. The wages start off equal at the rate the country can afford but earnings/wages are given reasonable maximum and minimum levels later when affordable.
5. Everyone between school leaving and 70 has a job to do, however menial.
6. Reclaim money lost or squandered by people in power.

Not too bad really considering the alternative of borrowing more and being left to fester while the crooks make off with the windfall. No sadism, concentration camps or Gestapo either.

Kalimara to you too

 

[hhiusa]

The only hope imho for Greece and other faltering countries is to put up with an authoritarian regime for 10 years to get them back on track.
1. Rigourisly stamp out crime and corruption
2. Require all domestically owned foreign assets to be declared to the country or are forfeited plus loss of domicile status for any who refuse.
3. The wealth is shared out fairly. Not equally but fairly so effort is rewarded.
4. Tourism and inward investment encouraged.
4. The wages start off equal at the rate the country can afford but earnings/wages are given reasonable maximum and minimum levels later when affordable.
5. Everyone between school leaving and 70 has a job to do, however menial.
6. Reclaim money lost or squandered by people in power.

Not too bad really considering the alternative of borrowing more and being left to fester while the crooks make off with the windfall. No sadism, concentration camps or Gestapo either.

Kalimara to you too

That basically sounds like Venezuela.

 

[Pat494]

That basically sounds like Venezuela.

The above may seem a bit severe to greedy capitalists but I prefer " we are all in it together " approach than the greedy elite owning everything and enforcing their rules by bully boys. That's why Latin America was plagued with revolutions demanding their rights.

 

[hhiusa]

The above may seem a bit severe to greedy capitalists but I prefer " we are all in it together " approach than the greedy elite owning everything and enforcing their rules by bully boys. That's why Latin America was plagued with revolutions demanding their rights.

That answers the question as to whether you are a successful trader in my book. Maybe everyone else should just worker harder as it sounds like you want a government hand-out. Why don't you move to Venezuela?

Entitled socialism vs. greedy capitalism

 

[new_trader]

That answers the question as to whether you are a successful trader in my book. Maybe everyone else should just worker harder as it sounds like you want a government hand-out. Why don't you move to Venezuela?

Entitled socialism vs. greedy capitalism

That's exactly how I see it too! My guess is Pat494 hasn't been successful in anything in life and has become so bitter about it that he thinks anyone who has more than him is "greedy". These types of people always feel that society owes them something and they demand that the Government get it for them.

 

[Pat494]

Alright I have taken the trouble to suggest a possible solution.
Perhaps NT and cowboy would like to give their right wing solutions ??

I have a feeling it might involve stealing their land or assets under your versions of regaining some prosperity. Prosperity for yourselves that is. Nothing nice or altruistic about those 2 imho.

NT feels its necessary for him to revert to personal abuse. Almost always a sure sign of someone who has lost the debate, which was about Greece, not my trading.

 

[Pat494]

Here the arrogant toad says his piece answering Splitt and about how moronic the general public are.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Capitalism is so greedy"

You will rarely hear/read anyone say, "Entrepreneurs are hard working", or "Entrepreneurs are rewarded for the sacrifices and risks they take"...

Nope, apparently for some, "if you are rich, you must be greedy"...

That's what the television told you, right?

This kind of attitude appeals to people who are failures or who haven't achieved much in life. If you are poor it's because you are "Nice", if you are rich it's because you are "Nasty and greedy"

I'm sure that during the next crisis we'll hear the same bumper sticker slogans that were used during the last crisis.

"Capitalism got out of control"
"Not enough regulation"
"Greedy Bankers"

It has to be right because that's what the television told you!

The general public is a moron, so they can only understand simple explanations. Try explaining 'Malinvestment' or Austrian Business Cycle theory to the average person and you will get nothing but vacuous expressions.


People are so stupid!

 

[Pat494]

Alright I have taken the trouble to suggest a possible solution.
Perhaps NT and cowboy would like to give their right wing solutions ??

I have a feeling it might involve stealing their land or assets under your versions of regaining some prosperity. Prosperity for yourselves that is. Nothing nice or altruistic about those 2 imho.

NT feels its necessary for him to revert to personal abuse. Almost always a sure sign of someone who has lost the debate, which was about Greece, not my trading.

It seems neither has a solution - just hot air, 2 old windbags.

 

[Atilla]

Alright I have taken the trouble to suggest a possible solution.
Perhaps NT and cowboy would like to give their right wing solutions ??

I have a feeling it might involve stealing their land or assets under your versions of regaining some prosperity. Prosperity for yourselves that is. Nothing nice or altruistic about those 2 imho.

NT feels its necessary for him to revert to personal abuse. Almost always a sure sign of someone who has lost the debate, which was about Greece, not my trading.

Worth reminding our selves I think.

Spot on imo.

 

[Splitlink]

That's exactly how I see it too! My guess is Pat494 hasn't been successful in anything in life and has become so bitter about it that he thinks anyone who has more than him is "greedy". These types of people always feel that society owes them something and they demand that the Government get it for them.

I don't see it that way, at all. The Spanish government is overflowing with corruption scandals. even some ministers have had to resign, The treasurer of PP, Barcenas is awaiting trial because he creamed off over 45 million euros. The Jordi Pujol--he was Cataluña's president for 23 years-- was called Mr 3%. Valencia and Andalucia, up to their eyes in bribery and corruption. Rajoy's governing right wing party have done nothing about it and unemployment is at 23%.

If you tell me that this does not go on in the UK and USA, then I will tell you that you are blind. I cannot justify to any of my friends how Rajoy can keep cutting budgets and not show some common humanity. This year he is spilling over with human kindness---elections in six months!

 

[new_trader]

If you tell me that this does not go on in the UK and USA, then I will tell you that you are blind. I cannot justify to any of my friends how Rajoy can keep cutting budgets and not show some common humanity. This year he is spilling over with human kindness---elections in six months!

I'm not as naïve as those who think Government is the solution when it is always the problem. The things Pat494 suggested is no different to saying "Greece needs an honest and fair gang of thugs to run the country for a while." Basically, he wants FASCISM.

I'm regarded as a right wing extremist...why?

Because I advocate things like:

• That EVERYONE should have the same property rights.
• That EVERYONE should get to keep the fruits of their own labour.
• That the Government should be small and its powers limited.
• That the Government should NOT be running the economy.
• That the role of Government is NOT to redistribute wealth.
• That EVERYONE has the same right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Now, you go figure why what I believe in is so offensive to some.

 

[hhiusa]

Alright I have taken the trouble to suggest a possible solution.
Perhaps NT and cowboy would like to give their right wing solutions ??

NT feels its necessary for him to revert to personal abuse. Almost always a sure sign of someone who has lost the debate, which was about Greece, not my trading.

Here the arrogant toad says his piece answering Splitt and about how moronic the general public are.

It seems neither has a solution - just hot air, 2 old windbags.

Do you honestly not have anything better to say than these ad hominem arguments. Since I am certain you do not know what an ad hominem fallacy is, I will explain.

Attacking the person making the argument, rather than the argument itself, when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making.

Logical Form:

Person 1 is claiming Y.

Person 1 is a moron.

Therefore, Y is not true.

Arrogance does not preclude an argument from being true.

Additionally, altruism is not a moral value. The ultimate moral value, for each human individual, is his or her own well-being. Selfishness is a virtue. I subscribe to the rational egoism philosophy.

 

[Splitlink]

Do you honestly not have anything better to say than these ad hominem arguments. Since I am certain you do not know what an ad hominem fallacy is, I will explain.

Attacking the person making the argument, rather than the argument itself, when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making.

Logical Form:

Person 1 is claiming Y.

Person 1 is a moron.

Therefore, Y is not true.

Arrogance does not preclude an argument from being true.

Additionally, altruism is not a moral value. The ultimate moral value, for each human individual, is his or her own well-being. Selfishness is a virtue. I subscribe to the rational egoism philosophy.

Yes, there is some mud-slinging going on but it is not, all, in one direction. Your use of Latin phrases is patronising, in the extreme, and you have used it with me, on occasion. If you were standing on an orange box at Speakers Corner you would be covered in tomato juice by now. Most of us are too occupied to have to consult a phrase book every time that we read a post.

Drop the Latin. You have told us that you go to university. Point taken. Some of us have been, too.

 

[hhiusa]

Yes, there is some mud-slinging going on but it is not, all, in one direction. Your use of Latin phrases is patronising, in the extreme, and you have used it with me, on occasion. If you were standing on an orange box at Speakers Corner you would be covered in tomato juice by now. Most of us are too occupied to have to consult a phrase book every time that we read a post.

Drop the Latin. You have told us that you go to university. Point taken. Some of us have been, too.

Very interesting expression! I learned something today. I'm guessing the orange box is a soap box or bully pulpit. I am perplexed by the tomato juice though. In the US, it would just be tomatoes.

I do not see how using Latin is condescending; however, I can dispense with the Latin if you guys can dispense with the mudslinging. Using Latin is a far cry from calling someone an old windbag or arrogant toad. Don't blame me for the names of the fallacies. My main point was to call attention to Atilla's and Pat494's frequent use of the fallacy. I welcome all opinions when laced with fact.

We have diverged again. Greece was in Brussels Sunday where the negotiations broke down within 45 minutes. When will they understand the predicament they are in. Telling the EU that they cannot pay back the debt because they have to pay €2.6 billion for pensions and hiring back 500,000 public servants is madness. It is not their money to be making such promises with. I cannot tell the IRS that they cannot have their tax money from me because my ex-wife needs her alimony and I don't want to give up my comfortable lifestyle.

This is just politicians being politicians.

 

[Pat494]

. Selfishness is a virtue. I subscribe to the rational egoism philosophy.

Selfishness is definitely NOT a virtue. Where do you get that from ?
Making sure your friends ( if any ) are OK too IS a virtue.
Selfishness and greed go together so well.

Fagin always looked after number 1.
NT and cowboy are the pits when it comes to generosity, condemned by what they say. People and even countries driven by fear and greed become moral vacuums.