Brexit - in or out

[counter_violent]

Everyone here knows that Britain will never be a full member of the EU. The public wouldn't allow it and neither would the politicians dare try taking us further in.

Yet we are being told that we have the best of both worlds, being in, and not in at the same time.

All sounds a bit hokey cokey to me. Ya put ya left foot in, left foot out, in, out, in, out, shake it all about.

Cameron and Osborne are just blowing smoke up every ones arses. They know full well that the EU is a basket case, but for some odd reason, they dare not commit to telling the truth.

Oh and these figures out just yesterday that do further damage to the remain side.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36331073

 

[forker]

The comments here are interesting on both sides but at the end of the day my decision will be based on what has happened and what I am seeing for my family, friends and myself and so this is what has happened so far.

1)I have seen an ongoing number of vastly rich people telling me that I should stay in the EU
2)I have seen my costs continuously rise and all my friends pay remain static over the last 10 years
3)A large number of people I know have lost their jobs over the last 20 years
4)My pension has been continuously depleted by more and more taxes
5)My children are unable to get on the housing ladder and so when the head of the IMF says house prices will collapse then it is a good reason to leave.
6) My ability to see my GP and get quick treatment on the NHS has disappeared over the last 20 years
7)I have seen in the last 10 years more rights removed by the EU than added and this is all a precursor the implementing the TTIP and making the EU a place for the rich to get ever more rich and a place where all that matters is big business.

None of the above is positive and could not have been worse outside the EU and yet I have been told by the rich people that I am better off (which is a joke) and it is better for me to hand over democratic control of my country to unelected people in a foreign country who are not accountable to anyone.

The idea that I am better off economically in the EU is utter nonsense for the reasons listed above. The reality is that the EU is Germany and in the event that the German economy falters the whole of the EU will be in a disastrous situation. If we stay in we will be expected to bail out the others at staggering costs to all of us and where will the faltering nations head to when it all happens? Here of course just as the Turks are planning on doing when their visa free travel comes in which again is a German way of getting them into the EU through the back door even though "technically" they are still at war with Greece over Cyprus.

As things stand, the UK would have to build a new house every 7 minutes to cater for the existing population and is something the government has admitted defeat on being able to action. If we get even more people arriving here it will ramp house prices and rents up even more which is the exact opposite of what I want for my children and their whole generation.

When idiots like Major, Blair, Cameron start lecturing me with ludicrous threats of what will happen if we leave it further increases my resolve to get out and is also doing the same to most of my associates. I don’t hear every day people who are not rich trying in desperation to threaten me with why I have to vote to stay in.

I don’t doubt that there will be uncertainty if we leave but so what that is not a reason to stay. What is certain is that staying in will see changes of biblical proportions to our sovereign nation that we have no ability to control. The UK has been a pioneer in almost every area of its involvement with the world and will continue to do so outside the EU. We have the most innovative nation to address world issues and will continue to so do. It is almost insulting to presume that we are not capable of doing this outside the EU and the same economists who said we cannot survive by keeping the GBP are the same ones saying we cannot survive outside the EU. They were wrong then and it is well known that economists and so called experts are more often wrong than right. This is why we should take no notice of any of them as they just don’t know what will happen but I have faith that the UK are capable of addressing most issues even when told by others that we face disaster. We did it twice during the last two wars and we can continue to do it again.

Some of the views that Scotland will go for independence again if we leave are seriously flawed. The Scots would have to reapply to join the EU if they leave the UK and have to show fiscal responsibility over an extended timeframe to be allowed in. So far they have been totally incapable of doing this and that is with the fortune they already get from the rest of the UK. If that is gone they have no chance at all of meeting this (since the Greece crisis) now crucial requirement. If they were admitted they would be in the same position as Latvia with no influence to do anything.

The message is simple, ignore the rich doomsayers and don’t underestimate the extraordinary ability of the British to take on and handle pretty much anything that comes our way.

Excellently said..

 

[forker]

 

[barjon]

"...........There is no case for being in......

.

But the fact remains that we ARE in. As I said, you want to change that so it's up to you to make the case to do so. I've not seen anything convincing - it's not enough to selectively knock EU shortcomings. Criticism is easy, as it would be if you focused on any Government in the world - our own included

Inquisitor makes some good points but it's certainly debatable whether or not the deterioration he sees can be laid at the EU's door rather than our own Governments' efforts.

 

[Sonicscooter]

I can only agree with Inquisitor

How can so many people not be steadfast and proud of their ability to do what we have done for hundreds of darn years.....the "in" camp to me are letting down past generations.......and that is without mentioning that Europe is being run by Germany, so they won in the end anyway.....

 

[forker]

You in camp need to fast forward time and think about the future generations. When banks start offering 100 year (multi-generation) mortgages because people can't possibly afford a house and no hope of paying a standard term off. When your community is no more and replaced with silo cultures. When your elected government can't do anything to change the laws and regulations you live by. When your childrens children have to attend school that teaches in more than one language in a class of 60+ students that have different needs and of course with all the red tape they get preference. If you fall sick you have to wait weeks to see a Dr or have no choice but to pay for private health care because you would die under the NHS. Every street corner will have a Turkish kebab shop and every town and city filled with mosques. Your identity as a nation is dissolved and your living standards plummet. But it's OK because you can get free access to Spain.. Viva EU..

 

[barjon]

You in camp need to fast forward time and think about the future generations. When banks start offering 100 year (multi-generation) mortgages because people can't possibly afford a house and no hope of paying a standard term off. When your community is no more and replaced with silo cultures. When your elected government can't do anything to change the laws and regulations you live by. When your childrens children have to attend school that teaches in more than one language in a class of 60+ students that have different needs and of course with all the red tape they get preference. If you fall sick you have to wait weeks to see a Dr or have no choice but to pay for private health care because you would die under the NHS. Every street corner will have a Turkish kebab shop and every town and city filled with mosques. Your identity as a nation is dissolved and you living standards plummet. But it's OK because you can get free access to Spain.. Viva EU..

and who is the doomster now

 

[forker]

I'm just joining the party and applying Dodgy Dave logic... Fear baby, take a big wiff of that sucker

 

[Sonicscooter]

and who is the doomster now

You honestly think this hasn't started......why the hell do you think i moved to Cumbria........read this.......Von Coudenhove-Kalergi plan.

 

[forker]

I left London as well because of it. Moved to Chelmsford.

 

[Sonicscooter]

"Europe" was planned well before the 1970's......all hidden in plain sight.

 

[barjon]

Oh well, I give up. You all better dash down to the bookies and get the 3/1 on offer for exit then. Good luck with that.

 

[forker]

You gave it all up a long time ago when we joined the EU so in reality you not giving anything up, you have nothing more to give. Take it back... Vote leave

 

[counter_violent]

So when the in camp are put under some pressure to outline a positive case for remaining part of Europe, the answer is to wave hands in the air :clap:

This is clearly the tactic the outers should develop then. Keep putting the inners under extreme pressure to answer the difficult questions, when all the evidence is that the EU is a pile of sh1t.

 

[forker]

 

[barjon]

So when the in camp are put under some pressure to outline a positive case for remaining part of Europe, the answer is to wave hands in the air :clap:

This is clearly the tactic the outers should develop then. Keep putting the inners under extreme pressure to answer the difficult questions, when all the evidence is that the EU is a pile of sh1t.

We'll I was hoping for some rational discussion but what can you expect on here. Shame you're going to be living in that pile of sh1t - as you so eloquently put it - for many years to come so you better get used to it.

 

[Splitlink]

"Why did Britain join? For various reasons. Because De Gaulle left, the Commonwealth could not compete, Heath defeated Wilson, the free trade area integration model sunk. But above all, Britain joined because joining the European project was perceived to be a way to stop its relative economic decline. In 1950, UK’s per capita GDP was almost a third larger than the EU6 average; in 1973, it was about 10% below; it has been comparatively stable ever since. On this basis, joining the EU worked – it helped to halt Britain’s relative economic decline vis-à-vis the EU6. "

The above are not my words, but it is common knowledge that the UK was in decline before she joined the EU. No one, reading the history, can doubt the facts. We were known as the sick man of Europe and, I remember well. we were in a mess.

That the EU has gone seriously off course is not disputed by me and requires serious reform, but UK has had a stable economy since she joined and, now, a few charlatans are trying to take her out. The Commonwealth wishes us well but, let us face it, the member states have gone their own way and made their own pacts since then.

Anyway, as I said earlier, those who want Brexit will not be convinced, no matter what is said in its favour

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

As far as migrants are concerned, whether we are in, or out, makes no difference. There are billions of foreigners out there seeking a better form of existence for their families. They will find other ways to enter. They are coming. Perhaps, you do not realise it in UK, but they are dying in their hundreds all the time in their desperation to get across the Med.

I dont know what the future holds for UK, but leaving the EU is not the solution to its present problems.

 

[Splitlink]

http://voxeu.org/article/britain-s-eu-membership-new-insight-economic-history

The quote, inthe previous post, was taken from this link. for anyone interested.

 

[swissy]

"Why did Britain join? For various reasons. Because De Gaulle left, the Commonwealth could not compete, Heath defeated Wilson, the free trade area integration model sunk. But above all, Britain joined because joining the European project was perceived to be a way to stop its relative economic decline. In 1950, UK’s per capita GDP was almost a third larger than the EU6 average; in 1973, it was about 10% below; it has been comparatively stable ever since. On this basis, joining the EU worked – it helped to halt Britain’s relative economic decline vis-à-vis the EU6. "

The above are not my words, but it is common knowledge that the UK was in decline before she joined the EU. No one, reading the history, can doubt the facts. We were known as the sick man of Europe and, I remember well. we were in a mess.

That the EU has gone seriously off course is not disputed by me and requires serious reform, but UK has had a stable economy since she joined and, now, a few charlatans are trying to take her out. The Commonwealth wishes us well but, let us face it, the member states have gone their own way and made their own pacts since then.

Anyway, as I said earlier, those who want Brexit will not be convinced, no matter what is said in its favour

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

As far as migrants are concerned, whether we are in, or out, makes no difference. There are billions of foreigners out there seeking a better form of existence for their families. They will find other ways to enter. They are coming. Perhaps, you do not realise it in UK, but they are dying in their hundreds all the time in their desperation to get across the Med.

I dont know what the future holds for UK, but leaving the EU is not the solution to its present problems.

I agree with a lot you say Split - particularly UK in the seventies, however in a crisis the EU cannot organise a p*ss up in a brewery. The migrant crisis is a good example (though not the only one), its like watching a slow motion train crash, sadly with human lives at stake.

I always believed in the "common market" in the EU and still do, so for economic reasons the EU principle is relatively sound (debt crisis excepted) - its all the other baggage that's been attached and the extra level of government, judiciary etc etc that I find hard to come to terms with.

 

[counter_violent]

We'll I was hoping for some rational discussion but what can you expect on here. Shame you're going to be living in that pile of sh1t - as you so eloquently put it - for many years to come so you better get used to it.

Well, I won't be losing any sleep over the outcome either way. Having an international skill will see me right.

I do worry mind about the already disenfranchised of the UK. The constant drip drip of cheap unskilled labour coming into the UK will only serve to alienate our own less capable. Costs go up all the time, wages do not.

No more money is being spent on public services to keep pace with an ever increasing population dependant on schools, hospitals etc.

Rest assured I am equally scathing about our own governments performance, particularly Labour. They should never be trusted with running the economy, as has been proven time after time.