Brexit and the Consequences

Atilla said:
I don't know about that but do know supermarkets aren't farmers friend. Why not blame the EU as it's all so topical and it can only further help our bargaining position.

Leave the EU and save British farms and fishing industries.
Tomorrow's daily trash headline. How does that grab you?

Sounds good!

Fact or fiction? Stuff the experts.

You judge!
Click to expand...


Certainly agree the supermarkets do the farmers no favours. Regarding milk production: the supermarkets and milk wholesalers have got dairy farmers down to the stage where it's almost not worth doing the job – and don't they now import a lot of milk from abroad?

Many of the farmers I hear about are in the business because either they really enjoy doing it and/or it's been in the family for generations – but not for the money. If you're a grain farmer there's no money if you're a small producer and that's why it's only profitable for combines or if you are a large producer. But in world terms we're just too small in UK to compete. That's why many farmers now in UK are leaving food production and diversifying into the tourist industry with holiday accommodation. And that is very profitable. The other way forward is with the growing of specialist high-value crops for which "enlightened" Joe public is willing to pay exorbitant prices. It seems unfortunate that something as vital as food basics are no longer economical to produce in the UK and much of what we do produce depends on cheap labour. (Will technology come to the rescue here?) But it comes down to the old saw regarding putting your hand in your pocket doesn't it: how much would you pay for a £1 litre bottle of water in the desert if you're dead thirsty and not had a drink for several days?
 
sminicooper said:
Certainly agree the supermarkets do the farmers no favours. Regarding milk production: the supermarkets and milk wholesalers have got dairy farmers down to the stage where it's almost not worth doing the job – and don't they now import a lot of milk from abroad?

Many of the farmers I hear about are in the business because either they really enjoy doing it and/or it's been in the family for generations – but not for the money. If you're a grain farmer there's no money if you're a small producer and that's why it's only profitable for combines or if you are a large producer. But in world terms we're just too small in UK to compete. That's why many farmers now in UK are leaving food production and diversifying into the tourist industry with holiday accommodation. And that is very profitable. The other way forward is with the growing of specialist high-value crops for which "enlightened" Joe public is willing to pay exorbitant prices. It seems unfortunate that something as vital as food basics are no longer economical to produce in the UK and much of what we do produce depends on cheap labour. (Will technology come to the rescue here?) But it comes down to the old saw regarding putting your hand in your pocket doesn't it: how much would you pay for a £1 litre bottle of water in the desert if you're dead thirsty and not had a drink for several days?
Click to expand...


Last time I studied farming industry, was back in the late 70s/80s and we were the most efficient and best in Europe. It was said that our Food Standards Agency was much tougher. EU smaller and less efficient farms in the EU had an advantage over British farms being less regulated.

CAP was a joke along with milk and butter mountains I do agree and there was also great deal of fraud in CAP. In Holland a family of four with some chickens and a cow could claim a subsidy. In Italy, they'd plant a vineyard on a hillside and claim the rain washed away their produce. Crazy I know but sadly true once upon a moon. Personally, I think small holdings is the way to go but one doesn't get the economies of scale so perhaps not ideal.

So UK exported standards and regulations into the EU. Now the anti-EU lobby is trouting regulations and directives as a reason for leaving the EU. That should teach the Europeans something... :rolleyes:

As UK is a small island we have a dependency on food imports. The prospect of slapping a 20% tarriff is barmy imo which is after all basic food for survival.

Outcome will be poorer families, with increased poverty. People eating crisps and chocolate and sugary drinks for energy instead of fruit and veg which will become even more unaffordable, especially so with fall in pound.

We'll end up with more obese losers not fit for work and strain on NHS. The mind boggles at the cost benefit analysis carried out by our political experts. No worries they'll say. We'll import from far away places like Australia and NZ, China even. I'm sure we can, that too will have a cost burden, in terms of climate damage, longer shipping distance, time in transit and suspect quality of perishable food stuff.

Finally, it's difficult being a farmer up North. Weather is key ofcourse. But why tell the British public that fact. Tell'm it's the EU supporting failing farms wasting your money.

I fail to see how leaving the EU is going to help Northern farms? Fishing yes maybe but farming??? I don't know, it just looks negative from my perspective. :whistling
 
sminicooper said:
Certainly agree the supermarkets do the farmers no favours. Regarding milk production: the supermarkets and milk wholesalers have got dairy farmers down to the stage where it's almost not worth doing the job – and don't they now import a lot of milk from abroad?

Many of the farmers I hear about are in the business because either they really enjoy doing it and/or it's been in the family for generations – but not for the money. If you're a grain farmer there's no money if you're a small producer and that's why it's only profitable for combines or if you are a large producer. But in world terms we're just too small in UK to compete. That's why many farmers now in UK are leaving food production and diversifying into the tourist industry with holiday accommodation. And that is very profitable. It seems unfortunate that something as vital as food is no longer economical to produce in the UK. But it comes down to the old saw doesn't it: how much would you pay for a £1 litre bottle of water in the desert if you're dead thirsty and not had a drink for several days?
Click to expand...

The thing is, as the gbp has weakened a bit then it should follow that imports become more expensive, therefore we should be able to farm and remain competitive. If Leadsom is also busy removing burdensome directives, that should also help.
 
counter_violent said:
The thing is, as the gbp has weakened a bit then it should follow that imports become more expensive, therefore we should be able to farm and remain competitive. If Leadsom is also busy removing burdensome directives, that should also help.
Click to expand...

Hopefully, that will happen. But the main problem is the old-fashioned farming, just like old fashion metal bashing, is no longer viable in UK. Also, older farmers are not culturally noted for being at the leading edge, in most cases. The younger, savvy and technologically aware and business sense aware generation will be okay – and some of them are doing very nicely thank you. There is money to be made in farming "but not as we know it Jim". I think that economics will dictate that as now and as for a long time past, we will not be self dependent for our own food production. When we leave EU we should certainly give our farmers as much assistance as possible and I don't see why that should be a problem – give it to the farmers instead of the EU. As far as I can work out, nearly everybody in the EU thinks they should get more out than what they put in – classic socialist system in practice.
 
sminicooper said:
Hopefully, that will happen. But the main problem is the old-fashioned farming, just like old fashion metal bashing, is no longer viable in UK. Also, older farmers are not culturally noted for being at the leading edge, in most cases. The younger, savvy and technologically aware and business sense aware generation will be okay – and some of them are doing very nicely thank you. There is money to be made in farming "but not as we know it Jim". I think that economics will dictate that as now and as for a long time past, we will not be self dependent for our own food production. When we leave EU we should certainly give our farmers as much assistance as possible and I don't see why that should be a problem – give it to the farmers instead of the EU. As far as I can work out, nearly everybody in the EU thinks they should get more out than what they put in – classic socialist system in practice.
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Maybe you caught newsnight last night. There was some talking head on there basically saying that social democracy is dead, they are ok in opposition, but as government, they are a disaster. I couldn't agree more ! The same thing is happening across Europe as happened over here, with the death of Labour, Socialism generally and the wooly Liberals.

There is hope then !
 
Apple couldn't give me their hardware for free. I would give it away. It is the biggest crap I have ever stupidly bought
 
Inquisitor said:
It doesn't unless you are stupid enough to go ahead and buy it which is what those categorised as the "Metropolitan Elite" and their cosy remoaning associates etc would probably do.
Click to expand...

Wow, that statement made absolutely no sense. It still costs £2,999 even if you don't buy it. And all American computer companies cost more in the UK due to the weak pound and Stalinist high VAT. All computer products are more expensive there as there are no British semiconductor companies, nor computer manufacturers. They are either American, Taiwanese or Japanese. HP, AMD, Intel, Microsoft, (Dude you're getting a cell), Apple, Lenovo--all not British. That certainly sucks. Tariffs, tariffs, tariffs on non-British companies & VAT, VAT, VAT.

I prefer to keep with the "metropolitan elite" minus the metrpolitan. Big cities are cesspools.
 
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Atilla said:
Last time I studied farming industry, was back in the late 70s/80s and we were the most efficient and best in Europe. It was said that our Food Standards Agency was much tougher. EU smaller and less efficient farms in the EU had an advantage over British farms being less regulated.

CAP was a joke along with milk and butter mountains I do agree and there was also great deal of fraud in CAP. In Holland a family of four with some chickens and a cow could claim a subsidy. In Italy, they'd plant a vineyard on a hillside and claim the rain washed away their produce. Crazy I know but sadly true once upon a moon. Personally, I think small holdings is the way to go but one doesn't get the economies of scale so perhaps not ideal.

So UK exported standards and regulations into the EU. Now the anti-EU lobby is trouting regulations and directives as a reason for leaving the EU. That should teach the Europeans something... :rolleyes:

As UK is a small island we have a dependency on food imports. The prospect of slapping a 20% tarriff is barmy imo which is after all basic food for survival.

Outcome will be poorer families, with increased poverty. People eating crisps and chocolate and sugary drinks for energy instead of fruit and veg which will become even more unaffordable, especially so with fall in pound.

We'll end up with more obese losers not fit for work and strain on NHS. The mind boggles at the cost benefit analysis carried out by our political experts. No worries they'll say. We'll import from far away places like Australia and NZ, China even. I'm sure we can, that too will have a cost burden, in terms of climate damage, longer shipping distance, time in transit and suspect quality of perishable food stuff.

Finally, it's difficult being a farmer up North. Weather is key ofcourse. But why tell the British public that fact. Tell'm it's the EU supporting failing farms wasting your money.

I fail to see how leaving the EU is going to help Northern farms? Fishing yes maybe but farming??? I don't know, it just looks negative from my perspective. :whistling
Click to expand...

A lot of sensible stuff above but I take issue with:
"Outcome will be poorer families, with increased poverty. People eating crisps and chocolate and sugary drinks for energy instead of fruit and veg which will become even more unaffordable, especially so with fall in pound. "


Families eat junk food because they don't know any better and are not savvy enough to disregard junk food advertising and the easy way is to give in to that and to the pressure from their children. Healthy eating and cooking is not expensive and certainly cheaper than pre-prepared stuff, but it takes time, effort and knowledge. I know of families where the food bill is much more expensive than it need be due to selection of convenience foods – and kids that "demand" them – just need a bit of old-fashioned family discipline there! This is an area where public education (films/literature/handouts) could be very effective in reducing the nation's obesity and the NHS cost time-bomb ticking away. They did it during 1980s with AIDS and public education films were very effective during and after WW2. My suspicion is that there are too many vested interests in the food and drinks industry which work against healthy living. Isn't that why it's been a struggle to get plain packaging on cigarette packets and the food industry have resisted with all their might the introduction of a traffic light system of health warnings on food. How cynical they are when they argue that their complicated - and admittedly detailed breakdown of constituents and nutritional values (only really comprehended by someone with a few brain cells and the patience to read them) are a much better solution for busy parents with screaming kids in tow :rolleyes: After all, it's only our kids' future health at stake.

But we shouldn't really be surprised: it's always been that way, it's only the date and circumstances that change. There will always be a section of society that it's difficult to look after – it just seems to me that the proportion is increasing unnecessarily.
 
You guys underestimate yourselves. You supported yourselves during the War. Had to. Wouldn't hurt to re-examine all of that. Might learn something useful.
 
dbphoenix said:
You guys underestimate yourselves. You supported yourselves during the War. Had to. Wouldn't hurt to re-examine all of that. Might learn something useful.
Click to expand...

U-boats made their name sinking UK supply ships, not to mention Lusitania, introducing US to the Germans. Some were surprised by the speed at which it sank? I'm sure you all know the famous Titanic but there were three of these boats built. Unsinkable they were. It was carrying amunition supplies as well as civilians and food stuffs but that's all hisotry now.

I wouldn't describe it as supporting our selves. It was more a case of surviving desperate times by the skin of our teeth.

There are strategic industries and farming is one of them imo.

Hands in the air, who thinks carrots are good for your eyes? ;)
 
There was rationing and food stamps and that persisted sometime after the war too based on my studies. I wasn't around then but Splitlink or Tomorton may be able to throw some light based on their sterling experiences :whistling
 
There was more than rationing and food stamps. Before the War, England was importing 70% of its food. By the time the war in Europe ended, Britain was growing 75% of its own. That's pretty extraordinary.

If you or anyone else is interested, check out this series: Wartime Farm.
 
Atilla said:
Hands in the air, who thinks carrots are good for your eyes? ;)
Click to expand...

Certainly makes them water a bit...:whistling


Anyway, radio 4 said today 62% of people in the borough of Dagenham voted to leave eu, Dagenham being one of the most multicultural borough's in london....and you were blaming me and c_v....
:LOL:
 
mike. said:
Certainly makes them water a bit...:whistling


Anyway, radio 4 said today 62% of people in the borough of Dagenham voted to leave eu, Dagenham being one of the most multicultural borough's in london....and you were blaming me and c_v....
:LOL:
Click to expand...

Some people are just in denial of the facts.

Here's the link to newsnight where there was a panel discussion on what lies ahead.

It's obvious who the realists and the wishful thinkers are. :LOL:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b088127n/newsnight-newsnights-exam-2017

Well Mike, people like us are to blame. We were told in the run up to Brexit that we couldn't talk about the real issues and that the experts were right.

Well I'm going to let them in on the secret. Some were talking about it before the vote, and since the vote, everyone is talking about it. :LOL:
 
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mike. said:
Certainly makes them water a bit...:whistling


Anyway, radio 4 said today 62% of people in the borough of Dagenham voted to leave eu, Dagenham being one of the most multicultural borough's in london....and you were blaming me and c_v....
:LOL:
Click to expand...

I object mi lord...

Don't blame anyone. Merely put forward economic arguments in terms of pros and cons.

If you are going to pick Dagenham, which is hardly multicultural and ignore London that's not fair cop.

This is not about the 37% electorate, 52% referendum or selected vested interests. It is about the UK and where the national interest lies.

If it can be shown UK national interest lies in Brexit then I'm all for it.

If it can revive the North without losing the South I'm all for it.

If it leads to a more equitable distribution of income then I'm all for it.

Simply thus far, nothing has been presented by the leave camp but hollow words. Ambition, optimism, hope and glory.

Unless the case is put forward it's just politicians playing silly buggers brandishing hollow words with no substance.


Farage thinks Tim Barrow is another carreer diplomat and not a Brexiter. He thinks a strong Brexiter should be put forward. Well what his saying is our civil servants should be politicised. :eek:

To politicise the civil service is about as stupid a suggestion as one can get. Work through what his saying. Reminds me of Anthony Benn. Talks a lot of gas, delivers not much. Political parasites.


(y)
 
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counter_violent said:
Wide ranging rant. Get it off your chest :LOL:

Dementia.

Look at any dementia website and they will give a whole list of reasons why it is in the ascendancy. The top reason is alcohol, but when you look closely, pretty much all the reasons are environmental/ poisoning of the system. Cell damage.

When you look at all the air/ food/ water pollution we create, not to mention individual self inflicted harm, like drinking, smoking, drug abuse, etc. Then it seems obvious we are setting ourselves up for a fall.

As for exterminating dementia sufferers on the grounds of cost. I think you might be going down the wrong route. Just saying ! :LOL:

As for voluntary euthanasia , it wouldn't be at all appropriate amongst this group of people, given that their mental capacity is severely impaired.

Your idea about putting prisoners out to work is much better.
Didn't they do something like this in the US. Chain gangs. Great idea.
Click to expand...

Today's news was brought to t2w 6 weeks ago. :)
Ovvious innit !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38506735

everything is known in advance
 
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