Brexit and the Consequences

0007 said:
I see that the government has come up with a scheme for tariffs in the event of No Deal. Strange isn't it that they can now postulate a scheme that's workable, with no guard dogs and Vopo towers on the border, no 15 mile queues of HGVs, no rioting and no mention of apocalypse and the end of civilisation as we currently know it. Funny old thing!
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Anyone voicing sensible views and policies has already been shut down by MSM. Establishment performance at it's finest.
People ought to be extremely concerned by this manipulation, but I expect most of them just go about each day enveloped in fog.
 
timsk said:
Thanks for reminding me Jon!

It's certainly starting to look like Brexit won't happen. Today, assuming all the pundits are correct in their analysis, Parliament will vote to take no-deal off the table, thus removing one of the two major trump cards that the government holds in its negotiating position. (The other being the 39 billion.) I'm of the view that this is mind boggling stupidity on the part of MPs and the only people who would vote to do this are remainers hell bent on reversing Brexit. Then, tomorrow, (again assuming all the pundits are correct in their analysis), they will vote in favour of extending Article 50. Again, sheer madness, because with no-deal off the table, the EU can call the shots re. the timetable and attach whatever conditions they want. I expect France will bring up fishing (again), Spain will raise Gib' and so on. Parliament won't be happy about that, and so an already dire situation will be made even worse. Crazy!

To summarise very succinctly (something you seldom get from me!), the whole sorry mess can be expressed using four and five letter acronyms:
Brino: Brexit in name only
Gino: Government in name only
Lino: Leadership in name only
Opino: Opposition in name only
Dino: Democracy in name only

What a bloody shambles. (Apologies to At' for using the B word - but it's warranted)
Tim.
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Tim

I agree with your “ino” list except:

Brino - it’s actually much more than that.
Dino - if the representatives of the people can keep stopping the ruling government in its tracks then democracy is alive and well.
 
barjon said:
. . .Dino - if the representatives of the people can keep stopping the ruling government in its tracks then democracy is alive and well.
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Errr, no Jon, it's not.

The MPs (legislature) aren't there to exercise control over the executive and dictate to government what it can - or can't - do. If the government isn't allowed to govern then, by definition, we don't have an efficient government that's fit for purpose. That's bad enough in itself but, if said MPs not only prevent the government from doing its job but do so on the basis of their own convictions that do not reflect the majority will of the people - then we're in a very bad place. This is why c_v is absolutely correct when he says there needs to be a wholesale clear out of most MPs and, IMO, if they vote on acts of Parliament in a manner that negates the mandate on which they were elected - then they MUST resign or be sacked. Their duplicity - lead from the front by Mrs. May - is totally unacceptable and is the main reason why we're in this mess. So, far from being alive and well, I'd say our parliamentary democracy is seriously ill and if the votes this week go as predicted, then another batch of nails will be hammered into its coffin.
Tim.
 
timsk said:
Errr, no Jon, it's not.

The MPs (legislature) aren't there to exercise control over the executive and dictate to government what it can - or can't - do. If the government isn't allowed to govern then, by definition, we don't have an efficient government that's fit for purpose. That's bad enough in itself but, if said MPs not only prevent the government from doing its job but do so on the basis of their own convictions that do not reflect the majority will of the people - then we're in a very bad place. This is why c_v is absolutely correct when he says there needs to be a wholesale clear out of most MPs and, IMO, if they vote on acts of Parliament in a manner that negates the mandate on which they were elected - then they MUST resign or be sacked. Their duplicity - lead from the front by Mrs. May - is totally unacceptable and is the main reason why we're in this mess. So, far from being alive and well, I'd say our parliamentary democracy is seriously ill and if the votes this week go as predicted, then another batch of nails will be hammered into its coffin.
Tim.
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It was tongue in cheek, Tim, but I don’t agree it’s seriously ill even though it’s in some disarray at the moment.

Our democracy is a representative one, voting in people to take decisions on our behalf in what they consider to be our best interests and broadly in line with the manifesto they put before us.

The referendum interfered with this process but it is right that politicians should support the result. The problem is that the result merely instructed us to leave. It didn’t (couldn’t really) specify on what terms and that was left to our representatives to sort out which we expected them do on the basis of “our best interests”. Unfortunately there are a wide range views about what is our best interests from the hard “no deal” to the soft “very nearly in”.

It is not a problem of democracy but one of an interference of the referendum and the lack of any clear cut manifesto commitments from parties concerning the terms they would seek for us to vote on.
 
hhiusa said:
Aren't Tories divided on No Deal? How many Tories will back extension? Will Tories back a no-deal scenario?

What DUP & Tories? Aren't they aligned? UKIP wants Brexit by 29th. It seems like if Tories want to leave 29th, no deal is the only option.
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all parties are devided on everything ......thats the problem ....brexit has devided the whole nation , every political party , every family , every group of friends , everyone !

there are fairly generic factions that those groups fall into ......but its been a real SOB

my feeling is that if we get to a General election BEFORE a decision..... there will naturally be a Remain party formed with neutral political views to lure in 48% of the population...........and by definition a very pro Brexit party will also have to be created or reformed from the Labour/conservative/Liberal Dinosaurs.........

the GE will basically be a facade for the same argument the country has been having for nearly 3 years now

it wont go away


N
 
timsk said:
Errr, no Jon, it's not.

The MPs (legislature) aren't there to exercise control over the executive and dictate to government what it can - or can't - do. If the government isn't allowed to govern then, by definition, we don't have an efficient government that's fit for purpose. That's bad enough in itself but, if said MPs not only prevent the government from doing its job but do so on the basis of their own convictions that do not reflect the majority will of the people - then we're in a very bad place. This is why c_v is absolutely correct when he says there needs to be a wholesale clear out of most MPs and, IMO, if they vote on acts of Parliament in a manner that negates the mandate on which they were elected - then they MUST resign or be sacked. Their duplicity - lead from the front by Mrs. May - is totally unacceptable and is the main reason why we're in this mess. So, far from being alive and well, I'd say our parliamentary democracy is seriously ill and if the votes this week go as predicted, then another batch of nails will be hammered into its coffin.
Tim.
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100% agree..........in reality when we got the results 2 years ago every MP who believed in Remain should have resigned and stepped down for a brexit MP .....I didnt want that to happen but would have accepted this as how can they really do their job if they dont agree fundamentally with the countries decision ?

but to lose all that power and prestige and income ? ..........no way hosea !!!

N

my feeling is that a significant % of MPs voted for remain ......all leaving would have made it very interesting !
 
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barjon said:
It was tongue in cheek, Tim, but I don’t agree it’s seriously ill even though it’s in some disarray at the moment.

Our democracy is a representative one, voting in people to take decisions on our behalf in what they consider to be our best interests and broadly in line with the manifesto they put before us.

The referendum interfered with this process but it is right that politicians should support the result. The problem is that the result merely instructed us to leave. It didn’t (couldn’t really) specify on what terms and that was left to our representatives to sort out which we expected them do on the basis of “our best interests”. Unfortunately there are a wide range views about what is our best interests from the hard “no deal” to the soft “very nearly in”.

It is not a problem of democracy but one of an interference of the referendum and the lack of any clear cut manifesto commitments from parties concerning the terms they would seek for us to vote on.
Click to expand...

the MP's are in no different a position than 95% of all Board members are in any Blue Chip company across the globe on a daily basis !

they are all paid to debate and argue and make the best decisions possible for their company and the shareholders ..........with frequent disagreement within the board that is always resolved one way or the other ......thats called running a company

here we see the futility and weakness of the parliamentry process when a big decsisoin had to be made .....no outcome and no outlook for one .................complete and utter shambles

we are the laughing stock of the world ...........even a bloody third world country would have sorted this out by now one way or the other

Jees

N
 
NVP said:
the MP's are in no different a position than 95% of all Board members are in any Blue Chip company across the globe on a daily basis !

they are all paid to debate and argue and make the best decisions possible for their company and the shareholders ..........with frequent disagreement within the board that is always resolved one way or the other ......thats called running a company

here we see the futility and weakness of the parliamentry process when a big decsisoin had to be made .....no outcome and no outlook for one .................complete and utter shambles

we are the laughing stock of the world ...........even a bloody third world country would have sorted this out by now one way or the other

Jees

N
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Absolutely, Neil, and the chaos comes from a lack of leadership within the Government and the Conservative party.
 
barjon said:
Absolutely, Neil, and the chaos comes from a lack of leadership within the Government and the Conservative party.
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sadly yes.......for many of us Brexit has broken many bonds of trust or favour we had for the major parties....forever
 
PM Momo.png
 
NVP said:
100% agree..........in reality when we got the results 2 years ago every MP who believed in Remain should have resigned and stepped down for a brexit MP .....I didnt want that to happen but would have accepted this as how can they really do their job if they dont agree fundamentally with the countries decision ?

but to lose all that power and prestige and income ? ..........no way hosea !!!

N

my feeling is that a significant % of MPs voted for remain ......all leaving would have made it very interesting !
Click to expand...


Strongly disagree with this viewpoint and Tim's previous comments.

Crux of the issue is clearly a poorly thought out and exercised referendum. One very big bad decision and you clearly highlight a MAJOR problem with Brexiteers who think they have a carte blanche cheque to do as they will based on a slim majority.

I was thinking of speaking to Sir Peter Bottomley as he voted for the deal which I strongly disagree with. So here we are 48% of the country to be represented by the likes of him and Farage. I just heard Farage say Parliament doesn't represent the people. Which people is he talking about. Preposterous ignorance.

Parliament clearly reflects the people. For you two to suggest such a thing along with his ilk is just fool hardy. Where will debate or balance come from if there is no opposition. All hard brexiteers agreeing with each other you say. That is a horrific suggestion if you extend it forward.

So who will people vote for if they disagree? Wait till end of what 4 year term and vote for who? Who's voice will we hear.


I think Brexiteers need to get a grip that this whole fiasco is one big headache and clear for me to see in the hands of some very extreme and dangerous people based on how you two very genuine and nice people who have been hood winked in to talking about stuff which not even remotely resembling any form of democracy. (n):mad:(n)
 
Atilla said:
Strongly disagree with this viewpoint and Tim's previous comments.

Crux of the issue is clearly a poorly thought out and exercised referendum. One very big bad decision and you clearly highlight a MAJOR problem with Brexiteers who think they have a carte blanche cheque to do as they will based on a slim majority.

I was thinking of speaking to Sir Peter Bottomley as he voted for the deal which I strongly disagree with. So here we are 48% of the country to be represented by the likes of him and Farage. I just heard Farage say Parliament doesn't represent the people. Which people is he talking about. Preposterous ignorance.

Parliament clearly reflects the people. For you two to suggest such a thing along with his ilk is just fool hardy. Where will debate or balance come from if there is no opposition. All hard brexiteers agreeing with each other you say. That is a horrific suggestion if you extend it forward.

So who will people vote for if they disagree? Wait till end of what 4 year term and vote for who? Who's voice will we hear.


I think Brexiteers need to get a grip that this whole fiasco is one big headache and clear for me to see in the hands of some very extreme and dangerous people based on how you two very genuine and nice people who have been hood winked in to talking about stuff which not even remotely resembling any form of democracy. (n):mad:(n)
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I have difficulty finding where the argument is in this?
 
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