Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

There only needs to be 52% to be representative.

So you okay with remain MPs to give up their positions for Brexiteers in the name democracy?

Brexiteers mixing up an advisory very poorly thought out and drafted referendum with MPs elected to parliament.

Do you not see just how wrong what Brexiteers are trying to portray as democracy is? Especially, in the light of such an important decision with long term ramifications on such ill thought out no end destination considered other than Brexit means Brexit what ever that means?

 

[FXX]

I hope you lads are trading Brexit as much as you debate it. Are you not tired of it?

 

[Atilla]

I'm long on Sterling thanks but short on SPX. Such is life

 

[timsk]

. . . I think Brexiteers need to get a grip that this whole fiasco is one big headache and clear for me to see in the hands of some very extreme and dangerous people based on how you two very genuine and nice people who have been hood winked in to talking about stuff which not even remotely resembling any form of democracy.

Hi At',
I won't respond to your points individually but, collectively, by disagreeing with my post you are saying in effect that you think it's perfectly acceptable for MPs to:
1. Take control of the government process.
2. Agree to a manifesto pledge in order to gain election and then do something completely different when in office.
Those were the two points I made in my last post and if that's your idea of democracy - then I pray for the sake of the country that you never go into politics!

I do agree with you that this whole fiasco is in the hands of "some very extreme and dangerous people". Said extreme and dangerous people are those MPs who have zero humility and zero probity who, for example, vote for Article 50 one day and then take no-deal off the table the next. Or vote against taking no-deal off the table and then stand up at the dispatch box and say no-deal would be a disaster (Philip Hammond take note). 'Go figure' is the American expression that springs to mind. The democracy that I talk about is very simple and centres around the long established custom of MPs living up to their title and behaving honourably. That so few of them adhere to this is the prime reason why we're in this mess. The situation is now so bad, that the charlatans that you support (e.g. Sir Vince Cable) have even managed to hoodwink you and half the country into believing that the few MPs who are behaving honourably by sticking to the pledges they made in the referendum and two general elections - are the extreme and dangerous people. Talk about hypocrisy and the pot calling the kettle black - unbelievable! I'm sorry to say At', if either of us has been hoodwinked, it is you and not me.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Hi At',
I won't respond to your points individually but, collectively, by disagreeing with my post you are saying in effect that you think it's perfectly acceptable for MPs to:
1. Take control of the government process.
2. Agree to a manifesto pledge in order to gain election and then do something completely different when in office.
Those were the two points I made in my last post and if that's your idea of democracy - then I pray for the sake of the country that you never go into politics!

I do agree with you that this whole fiasco is in the hands of "some very extreme and dangerous people". Said extreme and dangerous people are those MPs who have zero humility and zero probity who, for example, vote for Article 50 one day and then take no-deal off the table the next. Or vote against taking no-deal off the table and then stand up at the dispatch box and say no-deal would be a disaster (Philip Hammond take note). 'Go figure' is the American expression that springs to mind. The democracy that I talk about is very simple and centres around the long established custom of MPs living up to their title and behaving honourably. That so few of them adhere to this is the prime reason why we're in this mess. The situation is now so bad, that the charlatans that you support (e.g. Sir Vince Cable) have even managed to hoodwink you and half the country into believing that the few MPs who are behaving honourably by sticking to the pledges they made in the referendum and two general elections - are the extreme and dangerous people. Talk about hypocrisy and the pot calling the kettle black - unbelievable! I'm sorry to say At', if either of us has been hoodwinked, it is you and not me.
Tim.

Yes but Att is simply grasping at straws and twisting the position, like most remainers. We can't blame them for taking those positions.
The position we find ourselves in has been engineered by the establishment and enacted by weak leadership, quite probably deliberately. But not to worry, this is one battle that will not go away, indeed I think escalation is on the cards.
Nigel puts forward an interesting scenario as to why the EU should kick us out without a deal before the May European elections. We could become a right pain in the arse for the EU project should we still be represented in the EU parliament.

https://www.westmonster.com/nigel-european-council-should-veto-article-50-extension/

 

[barjon]

Tim

Just in relation to your two points.

1. MPs have always been able to control the government process since governments need their vote to approve their proposals before they can action them. And MPs have always been entitled to propose amendments to those government proposals. This is all part of the checks and balances in our system to prevent dictatorship. Parties generally employ the whipping system to keep their MPs aligned to policy but there have always been rebels - the brexiteers for years as an example.

2. So far as I know there was no manifesto pledge relating to the sort of Brexit deal/no deal that would be sought, merely a pledge that Brexit would be delivered. Just because May’s deal doesn’t go far enough as far as you are concerned doesn’t mean the manifesto pledge was ignored, only your particular interpretation of what it meant.

 

[0007]

This is how Sir Christopher Meyer (former ambassador to USA & other places)spoke on Radio 4 yesterday as to how TM should be handling the Brexit crisis:

Source: https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk...enough-with-this-stuff-sir-christopher-meyer/
"Though squeezed into the last three minutes of the BBC’s Today programme yesterday (no doubt to ‘balance’ the previous three hours), Sir Christopher told the British Government exactly what they should now be saying to the EU: ‘Enough of this stuff!’ Here is the exchange:"

John Humphrys: Sir Christopher Meyer, you worked with an awful lot of very important politicians, how do they cope when, is there a sort of style to which they revert when, at some point?’

Sir Christopher Meyer: Yes, there is up to a certain point, to a certain degree. I think some of the Prime Ministers I’ve worked for before would have drawn a completely different conclusion from the situation Theresa May now finds herself. And would have said to the European Union, ‘Enough! We’ve tried to get this thing fixed for at least two years, I have been defeated on what we have managed to negotiate together, twice by vast majorities; the time has come to call it a day and I am now telling you, European Union, that we, the British Government, will be moving at pace towards a No Deal outcome on March 29th, and if you’ve got anything more to say to me before then, please do, perhaps on the European Council 21st or 22nd March. Enough . . .

JH: So . . .

CM: . . . enough with this stuff.

JH: So ought she to be picking up the phone as we speak? Perhaps she’s listening to you now.

CM: Well, she may be listening to me now and I would say to her, please pick up the phone and give a call to Tusk and to Juncker and to Macron perhaps and tell them this, that there is a limit to what we can do to fit within the European Union’s template. They keep on saying to us it is our turn to move when it is THEIR turn to move. And if we are to have any leverage at all, the worst thing that Parliament could do today is to take No Deal off the table.

JH: And knowing Germany as well as you do [Meyer is a former British Ambassador to Germany] how would they react?

CM: Well, the Germans are very curious. They have a reputation for being tough and hard but they know which side of their bread is buttered and I would suspect Merkel would be a prime mover in getting the EU to move, but that depends on us being much tougher than we have been.


Well, ........... it seems that fell on deaf ears

 

[0007]

Tim

Just in relation to your two points.

1. MPs have always been able to control the government process since government needs their vote to approve their proposals before they can action them. And MPs have always been entitled to propose amendments to those government proposals. This is all part of the checks and balances in our system to prevent dictatorship. Parties generally employ the whipping system to keep their MPs aligned to policy but there have always been rebels - the brexiteers for years as an example.

2. So far as I know there was no manifesto pledge relating to the sort of Brexit deal/no deal that would be sought, merely a pledge that Brexit would be delivered. Just because May’s deal doesn’t go far enough as far as you are concerned doesn’t mean the manifesto pledge was ignored, only your particular interpretation of what it meant.

The type of Brexit is irrelevant – May's plan doesn't deliver Brexit: it is fundamentally flawed.

 

[barjon]

The type of Brexit is irrelevant – May's plan doesn't deliver Brexit: it is fundamentally flawed.

In your view. Mind you, if you want to leave the house but continue to play in the garden then you have to have something like it.

 

[0007]

I'm now of the opinion that this was the last person to make a serious contribution to English politics!

 

[Signalcalc]

So you okay with remain MPs to give up their positions for Brexiteers in the name democracy?

Of course, it's their job, we vote them in to represent us.

Brexiteers mixing up an advisory very poorly thought out and drafted referendum with MPs elected to parliament.

You trying to say Cameron is a Brexiteer? Mixed up puppy talk.

Do you not see just how wrong what Brexiteers are trying to portray as democracy is? Especially, in the light of such an important decision with long term ramifications on such ill thought out no end destination considered other than Brexit means Brexit what ever that means?

Have you lost your mind? Brexit means Brexit!

 

[Signalcalc]

Yes but Att is simply grasping at straws and twisting the position, like most remainers. We can't blame them for taking those positions.
The position we find ourselves in has been engineered by the establishment and enacted by weak leadership, quite probably deliberately. But not to worry, this is one battle that will not go away, indeed I think escalation is on the cards.
Nigel puts forward an interesting scenario as to why the EU should kick us out without a deal before the May European elections. We could become a right pain in the arse for the EU project should we still be represented in the EU parliament.

https://www.westmonster.com/nigel-european-council-should-veto-article-50-extension/

Except that the propaganda arm of govt (BBC) have been espousing all sorts of legal arguments that point towards the EU changing the goalposts to allow current UK MEPs to continue as they are, thereby locking out the UK from fresh EU elections.

 

[Signalcalc]

I caught a glimpse of the 'no-deal' debate yesterday afternoon when Jess Philips was stood talking, her Labour constituency Birmingham Yardley overwhelmingly voted leave. A prime example of an MP that has no regard for her constituency's wishes and clearly doesn't care if she is voted out of office, it's all about party politics and Remain for these MP's. To hell with the 17.4M.

 

[counter_violent]

Here ya go Tim. All ties in with the sudden shift in direction of travel from Chequers onwards.
Not only is it a UK establishment stitch up, but the Europeans are in on it as we expected they would be.

https://independencedaily.co.uk/a-german-brexit-a-scandal-of-subversive-statecraft/

 

[cantagril]

I'm now of the opinion that this was the last person to make a serious contribution to English politics!


View attachment 261026

Papist scum! ...and with a name like Guido, probably a migrant too. Hanging's too good for 'em!

 

[NVP]

But the MPs no longer represent the people whereas the referendum did.

MP's claim to represent the people but in truth that are hardly representative of the people are they ?

i still feel most MPs were pro remain.....regardless of their constituencies

 

[NVP]

if all the people involved were debating brexit in the polite and repected manner as we are on here then we would have had this resolved months ago

 

[Atilla]

Yes but Att is simply grasping at straws and twisting the position, like most remainers. We can't blame them for taking those positions.
The position we find ourselves in has been engineered by the establishment and enacted by weak leadership, quite probably deliberately. But not to worry, this is one battle that will not go away, indeed I think escalation is on the cards.
Nigel puts forward an interesting scenario as to why the EU should kick us out without a deal before the May European elections. We could become a right pain in the arse for the EU project should we still be represented in the EU parliament.

https://www.westmonster.com/nigel-european-council-should-veto-article-50-extension/

I don't believe I am no but curious to see all your responses when your shoddy Brexit plans are foiled.

You are staring down the barrel of Article 50 cancellation.


Don't get me wrong. I don't object to democracy or the will of the people to be represented in parliament. Once that daft ill thought out Article 50 is cancelled and the power crazy mad dangerous and wreckless politicians dealt with (aka Boris, Davis, TM, Moggy and Govey and Leadsom and few others) then and only then can the advisory referendum to leave the EU be considered, debated and subsequently voted on in Parliament.

If people like Farage and others want to form a one trick party to take the UK out of the EU they are certainly free to do so.I would hope they can demonstrate the how with what comes after. If British people want to vote for that, then that's also fine. I'll make it my objective to contribute with my utmost endeavours to make it a success. As long as some order and decent due consideration is given to honest debates.


I sincerely believe we need to restore UK to an orderly and well working democratic system and this whole shed storm be put to rest as lessons learned from how not to conduct a referendum.

We are slowly getting there.

 

[counter_violent]

I don't believe I am no but curious to see all your responses when your shoddy Brexit plans are foiled.

You are staring down the barrel of Article 50 cancellation.


Don't get me wrong. I don't object to democracy or the will of the people to be represented in parliament. Once that daft ill thought out Article 50 is cancelled and the power crazy mad dangerous and wreckless politicians dealt with (aka Boris, Davis, TM, Moggy and Govey and Leadsom and few others) then and only then can the advisory referendum to leave the EU be considered, debated and subsequently voted on in Parliament.

If people like Farage and others want to form a one a party to take the UK out of the EU they are certainly free to do so.


I sincerely believe we need to restore UK to an orderly and well working democratic system and this whole shed storm be put to rest as lessons learned from how not to conduct a referendum.

We are slowly getting there.

Oh the irony.

The EU is a democratic system is it.

There is no hope for remainers. None at all.

 

[Atilla]

Oh the irony.

The EU is a democratic system is it.

There is no hope for remainers. None at all.

Parliament is though and that's what counts.

You still blabbering about EU...

Power sits with Parliament you should have learned that by now.