Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

That turn in cable cost me pips in fact as I was short, but I am never the less pleased with the rational debate offered to Parliament.

IDS has lost the plot. He believes, they'll debate the stuff in Parliament for couple of days, carry out the whole negotiations in secret and PM gets to decide all by her self and cabinet.

Does he know we are not playing defense spy games but simply discussing relationship with Europe impacting livelihoods of millions of people and businesses.

Why the secret negotiations in Parliament?

I liked his work done on DSS and Pensions etc but he really has lost the plot as to what he thinks is Parliaments role in all this.

Same applies to other Brexiters waving the 37% referendum flag as some kind of cart blanche rule to trump all due process of rule and law. :-0


Phew!

 

[forker]

That turn in cable cost me pips in fact as I was short

was it a short term position or were you banking on some bad news to drive it further south?

 

[Atilla]

was it a short term position or were you banking on some bad news to drive it further south?

Yes, was expecting to see 1.22/21s again as 1.23s got rejected.

With the Fed, due to raise rates in Dec, sterling looked a sure short bet.

Still development is good news imo.

 

[Signalcalc]

My guess is we enter a range with cable as we get bounces in good news/ bad news over the coming months.

 

[timsk]

. . . Same applies to other Brexiters waving the 37% referendum flag as some kind of cart blanche rule to trump all due process of rule and law.

That's one view. Another (more accurate) one is that it was actually 52% and the referendum was due process. Shame some people can't stand democracy and are determined come what may to impose their minority view on everyone else. Not you Atilla I'm sure, just others in your camp.

 

[Atilla]

That's one view. Another (more accurate) one is that it was actually 52% and the referendum was due process. Shame some people can't stand democracy and are determined come what may to impose their minority view on everyone else. Not you Atilla I'm sure, just others in your camp.

Fact! THAT IS - 52% of 71.2% turnout.

Fact! 3m expats living in Europe denied the vote. This is just so unfair. Especially when as British citizens they are the very people who are actually impacted.

Fact! Both Boris and Theresa on record as saying UK benefits from EU now having become Brexiters have elevated political careers.

Fact! Another two aspiring politicians didn't make it and have fallen by the way side.

Fact! One pony trick Brexiter, Mr NF now living his life whilst party UKIP trying to survive disintegration.

Fact! Worth remembering why David Cameron called the referendum, to shut the Eurosceptics in his party up.

Fact! Ill thought out referendum contrary to what can be deemed universally as bad practice by experts.


Brexiters dispute expert opinion, come to the floor with no plan and plan to negotiate in secret and vote on a monumental decision impacting relations with Europe, and union behind closed doors with a handful of cabinet members by passing Parliament.

Crazy just doesn't say it. We have the best and most established democratic house in the World and it all boils down to a referendum based on lies and deceit and political agendas.


Audacious talk of minority groups and democracy is then used against the majority. Shocking! Absolutely shocking

 

[counter_violent]

That's one view. Another (more accurate) one is that it was actually 52% and the referendum was due process. Shame some people can't stand democracy and are determined come what may to impose their minority view on everyone else. Not you Atilla I'm sure, just others in your camp.

The people have spoken Tim and our representatives can be replaced. May knows this and if she is stymied in any way from carrying out the will of the people, will be able to call an election whereby all those who oppose Brexit can be voted out of office. The MP's know this and so do the Lords. The difficulty is that this whole issue could drag on and on unless firm decisive action is taken. If May has any sense, she will put her angry head on and call that election, in the interests of the UK.

Dopey Gordon had the opportunity to use the same tactic but bottled out. We all know what happened to him don't we !

 

[forker]

Fact! THAT IS - 52% of 71.2% turnout.

Fact! 3m expats living in Europe denied the vote. This is just so unfair. Especially when as British citizens they are the very people who are actually impacted.

Fact! Both Boris and Theresa on record as saying UK benefits from EU now having become Brexiters have elevated political careers.

Fact! Another two aspiring politicians didn't make it and have fallen by the way side.

Fact! One pony trick Brexiter, Mr NF now living his life whilst party UKIP trying to survive disintegration.

Fact! Worth remembering why David Cameron called the referendum, to shut the Eurosceptics in his party up.

Fact! Ill thought out referendum contrary to what can be deemed universally as bad practice by experts.


Brexiters dispute expert opinion, come to the floor with no plan and plan to negotiate in secret and vote on a monumental decision impacting relations with Europe, and union behind closed doors with a handful of cabinet members by passing Parliament.

Crazy just doesn't say it. We have the best and most established democratic house in the World and it all boils down to a referendum based on lies and deceit and political agendas.


Audacious talk of minority groups and democracy is then used against the majority. Shocking! Absolutely shocking

In all elections there is not a 100% turnout so to say that the majority of what is actually a very high turnout is a laugh and an unrealistic view. If people didn't bother to vote that doesn't mean it's not a majority. Furthermore, if people decide to up shift and move to another country, why do they now get voting rights? I'm sorry if this offends you but people that leave shouldn't have any say.

Fact Boris and May didn't invoke a referendum and their careers now have zero relevance to this fact.

NF has been fighting for this for his entire career. To call him a one trick pony is nothing short of your hatred in brexit.

Fact expert opinion in the run up to brexit said immediate recession, world war 3, the end of the world. Here we are with the only outcome post brexit being speculative devaluation of sterling.

You are a true bremoaner

 

[Atilla]

In all elections there is not a 100% turnout so to say that the majority of what is actually a very high turnout is a laugh and an unrealistic view. If people didn't bother to vote that doesn't mean it's not a majority. Furthermore, if people decide to up shift and move to another country, why do they now get voting rights? I'm sorry if this offends you but people that leave shouldn't have any say.

Referendum and Elections are not the same thing!

They are British citizens and the referendum is about the European Union. Expats in Europe DEFINITELY need to be included. Not in Asia or Auzzie land but EUROPE absolute must as they are British citizens domiciled in Europe who will be CLEARLY IMPACTED. Is this not obvious. Most unfair if you state otherwise. Why does Nigel Lawson get to talk so much or hold a seat in the Lords in that case as he lives in France???

Fact Boris and May didn't invoke a referendum and their careers now have zero relevance to this fact. Beg to differ. Both Boris, Gove and Leasdom including Theresa May's remain silence has much to do with playing politics. To say otherwise is pure denial with due respect.

NF has been fighting for this for his entire career. To call him a one trick pony is nothing short of your hatred in brexit. He is indeed a one trick pony. Made a mint out of being an MEP and any passionate man who has come so near to his 15 year crusade would want to see it through. Never leave projects mid way - unless I am booted out that's stakeholders choice. However, UKIP in the state is in hides some simmering tensions which are now coming to froth.

Fact expert opinion in the run up to brexit said immediate recession, world war 3, the end of the world. Here we are with the only outcome post brexit being speculative devaluation of sterling. Agreed, lies and deceits on both sides. However, my arguments were neither just assessments based on studies and life long experience.

You are a true bremoaner

I have always been true and speak my mind irrespective of consequence.

Bremoaner you say - considering Eurosceptics have been with us pretty much since 1972 since our last referendum takes the label to a new meaning.

Compared to Brexiters carrying 40+ years luggage I'm not even 4 months old yet.

Never the less I am pleased with Parliament becoming engaged as it should be.

 

[counter_violent]

I have always been true and speak my mind irrespective of consequence.

Bremoaner you say - considering Eurosceptics have been with us pretty much since 1972 since our last referendum takes the label to a new meaning.

Compared to Brexiters carrying 40+ years luggage I'm not even 4 months old yet.

Never the less I am pleased with Parliament becoming engaged as it should be.

You need to watch the Farage compilation. 40+ years he and others have been at it.

What part of "the EU organisation is fundamentally flawed" do you not understand ?

 

[Atilla]

You need to watch the Farage compilation.

What part of "the EU organisation is fundamentally flawed" do you not understand ?

Rose bush has thorns too. Wouldn't call it a flawed plant would you. Has much beauty and splendor to offer if pruned and approached in the correct way.

 

[timsk]

Fact! THAT IS - 52% of 71.2% turnout.

Hi Atilla,
The flaw in your 'factual' thinking is to suppose that the 30% or so who didn't vote would have voted to remain rather than leave. Who's to say they wouldn't all have voted leave. In reality, there's no knowing, and it's probable the true figure reflects those who did bother to vote. As forker rightly points out, the non-voters were given their chance to voice their opinion along with the rest of us and chose not to. It is reasonable to conclude that they either don't care one way or the other, or are just too lazy to get off their backsides. Either way, they don't count. Therefore, the result is 52% and not 37%. And that's a FACT!
Tim.

PS. Annoying when people shout, isn't it!

 

[Splitlink]

That's one view. Another (more accurate) one is that it was actually 52% and the referendum was due process. Shame some people can't stand democracy and are determined come what may to impose their minority view on everyone else. Not you Atilla I'm sure, just others in your camp.

Do you believe that a referendum overides the law of the land? I am against Brexit because I have a right to an opinion, the same as everyone else, but this does raise an interesting point. If the PM places herself above the law, then what is the position of our judiciary system with regard to, practically, anything?

IMO, there must be a vote in Parliament. Personally, I hope that Brexit will go ahead but, if the vote goes against it......? Interesting times!

 

[Atilla]

Hi Atilla,
The flaw in your 'factual' thinking is to suppose that the 30% or so who didn't vote would have voted to remain rather than leave. Who's to say they wouldn't all have voted leave. In reality, there's no knowing, and it's probable the true figure reflects those who did bother to vote. As forker rightly points out, the non-voters were given their chance to voice their opinion along with the rest of us and chose not to. It is reasonable to conclude that they either don't care one way or the other, or are just too lazy to get off their backsides. Either way, they don't count. Therefore, the result is 52% and not 37%. And that's a FACT!
Tim.

PS. Annoying when people shout, isn't it!

No not at all as I do recognise point you have just made.

Do you however, recognise our point?

Referendum was advisory not mandatory!

Referendum is not the same as elections giving governments a mandate to run and manage the country.

Parliament has heeded this advise and now a very long and detailed debate is to be chaired by Parliament.

This High Court Law Ruling does not say Brexit is at an end. It merely states; Referendum does not bypass Parliament's role in constitutional matters.


I think Brexiters are really trying to milk this advisory referendum as if it reflects the majority of British people, giving them carte blanche cheque to carry out secret negotiations behind closed doors and take cabinet decisions by career politicians in determining outcome of the whole UK and union.

Is this not the case pushed by Brexiters as a matter of fate accompli???

Shout it from the roof tops - NOT 52% BUT 37% OF THE BRITISH POPULATION VOTED TO LEAVE(less 3m expats excluded).


Saying look we've had the Referendum let's be magnanimous and move on to make it work is compounding on a big mistake and injustice. It can not stand and should not go unchallenged.

The proper place to have this serious debate is not in the media circus by the likes of Gove, Boris and Leasdom who are far more unscrupulous in their political ambitions than Cameron was (or Theresa May for that matter).

Bear in mind career politicians will not be able to mislead Parliament as before which is considered a very serious matter unlike the media where it was entertained selling papers and adverts.

 

[Atilla]

Do you believe that a referendum overides the law of the land? I am against Brexit because I have a right to an opinion, the same as everyone else, but this does raise an interesting point. If the PM places herself above the law, then what is the position of our judiciary system with regard to, practically, anything?

IMO, there must be a vote in Parliament. Personally, I hope that Brexit will go ahead but, if the vote goes against it......? Interesting times!

As an expat who still feels British and along with your compatriots in Spain, do you think Brits in Europe should have been included in the advisory vote (considering it wasn't binding in law)?

Do you think Nigel Lawson having publicly announced and living in France should be allowed to maintain his position in the House of Lords as well as participate in the campaign?

Why have conflicting rules and approach?

 

[forker]

Government passed an Act, an Act of Parliament, which gave the British people the right to make the decision about whether we stayed or left. That is NOT advisory


One the official government leaflet

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

Cameron made it crystal clear in the run up that a vote to leave would result in article 50 being triggered. It's not a case of mps now having the power to revoke the triggering of the article. They have a duty to implement the democratic decision by the people. The only question now is what that relationship is going to be. Staying in the single market is really no different to never having voted at all. We would still need to apply EU policy as part of the rules and accept the endless supply of low wage immigrants flooding the country. In my opinion we won't be able to negotiate remaining in the market without the freedom of movement. Therefore I don't think we will be part of the single market. All the government is going to do is decide on the terms we present the eu. The eu is going to tell us to p!55 off and whatever the mps decide will ultimately be meaningless. The only way forward is a complete severing of membership.

 

[tomorton]

Do you believe that a referendum overides the law of the land? I am against Brexit because I have a right to an opinion, the same as everyone else, but this does raise an interesting point. If the PM places herself above the law, then what is the position of our judiciary system with regard to, practically, anything?

IMO, there must be a vote in Parliament. Personally, I hope that Brexit will go ahead but, if the vote goes against it......? Interesting times!

If Parliament (especially the Lords) stop the government's Article 50 submission, they'll either call a general election on Brexit means Brexit platform and win and get it through second time or over-rule the Lords and pass it anyway. This also whips the Tory MPs into a solid block.

Meantime, any delays and weaker negotiations with the EU can be blamed on the opposition.

The name of the game is power - getting it and keeping it. Not democracy or the good of the country.

 

[neil]

political parties -are they all the same?

Government passed an Act, an Act of Parliament, which gave the British people the right to make the decision about whether we stayed or left. That is NOT advisory

How dare the working classes vote to leave ! But don't worry, only London matters so don't worry about them Northerners and provincials who voted to leave. Yes-the London elite and other chattering classes will obfuscate matters until they get their way, thus, the elite and their hangers on will get us back in. Democracy is okay providing the ruling classes get their way.
Maybe Brexit was a protest vote by those fed up with poor pay, high housing costs, dreadful working practices ( Zero hours and compulsory self employment status - no holiday or sick pay or pension contribution). Add to that a sizeable proportion of the population who have no representation by current political parties ( Blair didn't stop the raising of the pensionable age,, zero hours and self employment law abuse etc)...........and Corbyn......well....unelectable. Therefore this forgotten large group of voters will still wait for someone to fight their corner. Until then the protest vote is only one of a small number of ways to express their despair and disillusionment with their current lot in society to which they have difficulty relating to. Probably a similar situation in America gave rise to the popularity of Trump as the champion of the unrepresented (See news stories of real America with closed steel mills and dilapidated housing stock, unemployment etc). Heard on the wireless that some employers can't get people to work for them in London -well, that's because housing (renting /buying) is cheaper outside London plus travel costs into London continue to rise whilst wages do not.

 

[timsk]

Do you believe that a referendum overides the law of the land?

Hi Split',
Where the law is an a$$ and isn't in the nation's best interests (as in this case), then common sense ought to be allowed to prevail. All that today's nonsense will mean is that there is likely to be more prevarication, more uncertainty and our hand could be weakened when negotiating the terms of our departure from the EU. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a few big egos that think they're cleverer and more important than the great unwashed and want to do whatever they can to stall the process because they can't handle the result. Common sense says these people ought to be put in public stocks so that forker, c_v, me and fellow Brexiteers can throw rotten tomatoes at them for behaving like complete *****. I'm being kind: in yesteryear their actions would be akin to treason and their punishment would be altogether more humiliating and painful. Sadly, as we all know only too well, these days common sense is none too common.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Hi Split',
Where the law is an a$$ and isn't in the nation's best interests (as in this case), then common sense ought to be allowed to prevail. All that today's nonsense will mean is that there is likely to be more prevarication, more uncertainty and our hand could be weakened when negotiating the terms of our departure from the EU. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a few big egos that think they're cleverer and more important than the great unwashed and want to do whatever they can to stall the process because they can't handle the result. Common sense says these people ought to be put in public stocks so that forker, c_v, me and fellow Brexiteers can throw rotten tomatoes at them for behaving like complete *****. I'm being kind: in yesteryear their actions would be akin to treason and their punishment would be altogether more humiliating and painful. Sadly, as we all know only too well, these days common sense is none too common.
Tim.

You forgot Neil,

PS. (he asked if he could throw the gone off hard boiled eggs)