Brexit and the Consequences

[cantagril]

Care to elaborate on what is moving forward for you?

yes, BREXIT

Moving forward in a sort of Michael Jackson stylie?

 

[cantagril]

People with grand visions who are fearless and embrace change and the globe will always outshine self centric small minded peeps who are fearful of what they can't control outside of their monotonous existence.

Ah yes! The grand vision of the Brexiteers

For some reason, I had you pegged as a remainer. Just goes to show - you cain't tell a book by lookin' at the cover.

 

[FXX]

Ah yes! The grand vision of the Brexiteers

For some reason, I had you pegged as a remainer. Just goes to show - you cain't tell a book by lookin' at the cover.

At least we have vision..

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Atilla]

Ah yes! The grand vision of the Brexiteers

For some reason, I had you pegged as a remainer. Just goes to show - you cain't tell a book by lookin' at the cover.

I see your point here Sir Try-to-Grillalot and that is indeed the point which is missing from how that statement may be applied to one of two possible interpretations.

Big ISSUE with the UK is one hears forever the self deluded belief that somehow one can (much like a wounded animal) get back to the old den when life was ripe and sweet during our Empire days.

The old days of the Empire are long gone and conditions for reproducing same outcomes consigned to history.

I'm still waiting to see a road map from our Brexit fellows outlining some level of vision we can look at instead of we can do this if we close our eyes and wish very hard.

On the other hand EU new projects with Russia, China and the great new silk road will change and open new trade routes and opportunities.


Onwards and forwards.

 

[counter_violent]

I see your point here Sir Try-to-Grillalot and that is indeed the point which is missing from how that statement may be applied to one of two possible interpretations.

Big ISSUE with the UK is one hears forever the self deluded belief that somehow one can (much like a wounded animal) get back to the old den when life was ripe and sweet during our Empire days.

The old days of the Empire are long gone and conditions for reproducing same outcomes consigned to history.

I'm still waiting to see a road map from our Brexit fellows outlining some level of vision we can look at instead of we can do this if we close our eyes and wish very hard.

On the other hand EU new projects with Russia, China and the great new silk road will change and open new trade routes and opportunities.


Onwards and forwards.

Remoaners don't have any vision, they are only interested in managing decline alongside the rest of the EU.

JRM will sort the job right out.

 

[Signalcalc]

I see your point here Sir Try-to-Grillalot and that is indeed the point which is missing from how that statement may be applied to one of two possible interpretations.

Big ISSUE with the UK is one hears forever the self deluded belief that somehow one can (much like a wounded animal) get back to the old den when life was ripe and sweet during our Empire days.

The old days of the Empire are long gone and conditions for reproducing same outcomes consigned to history.

I'm still waiting to see a road map from our Brexit fellows outlining some level of vision we can look at instead of we can do this if we close our eyes and wish very hard.

On the other hand EU new projects with Russia, China and the great new silk road will change and open new trade routes and opportunities.


Onwards and forwards. [emoji106]

Had to chuckle, I cannot honestly remember seeing or hearing anyone talking about reverting to empire days, the assumption is that it is therefore a myth perpetuated by the remain camp.

Would you care to provide an example to disprove my assumption?

 

[Atilla]

Had to chuckle, I cannot honestly remember seeing or hearing anyone talking about reverting to empire days, the assumption is that it is therefore a myth perpetuated by the remain camp.

Would you care to provide an example to disprove my assumption?

Disprove your assumption?

Let me think about it for a while...

First conclusion that springs to mind is that you believe your assumptions to be true based on your challenge to prove otherwise.

From your true assumptions I can then summarise that in fact you have submitted absolute facts as assumptions and you are misguided in your assessment.


You must surely be Sir Chucklealot...

 

[Atilla]

Remoaners don't have any vision, they are only interested in managing decline alongside the rest of the EU.

JRM will sort the job right out.

 

[Signalcalc]

Disprove your assumption?

Let me think about it for a while...

First conclusion that springs to mind is that you believe your assumptions to be true based on your challenge to prove otherwise.

From your true assumptions I can then summarise that in fact you have submitted absolute facts as assumptions and you are misguided in your assessment.


You must surely be Sir Chucklealot...

I’ll take that as a no [emoji848]

I do chuckle a lot when reading this thread, therefore the robot wars analogy is a good one and totally on topic considering the robots are coming to take our jobs. [emoji23]

 

[cantagril]

Had to chuckle, I cannot honestly remember seeing or hearing anyone talking about reverting to empire days, the assumption is that it is therefore a myth perpetuated by the remain camp.

Would you care to provide an example to disprove my assumption?

Whilst I don't think anybody (except perhaps a few chemically enhanced Faragistas) has actually uttered the word "Empire", there is definitely an air of nostalgia about the whole Brexit idea - that by returning to the good old days of pre-EU, Pre-EEC arrangements that the country will be catapulted toward a brighter future. I absolutely agree that Britain is going to be launched into a brave new world but I reckon we might have a few decades in the Slough of Despond before reaching a level any better than we have now.

Assuming that the folk wishing to leave all that pertains to the EU have a clear understanding of the huge amount of work and progress that will be unravelled in this process, then of course, they will already have well laid plans of how the economy will weather the coming storms and who will be the new replacement trading partners.

Personally, I've seen no evidence of this and the mood seems to be that somehow we're going to do great business with regimes that 5 minutes ago we didn't want to have that much to do with and everything will be all right on the night. You'll have to forgive me for being just a teensy bit sceptical on this - taking China as one "partner" being bandied about recently: again, it's true that as Moggly sez, there are queues of people who can't wait to buy cheap Chinese shoes but the small matter of said Chinese empire (there! I said it) destabilising the Far East and now having a crack at doing the same in Asia represents - how can I put this?- a fly in the ointment....

The other bit that just doesn't make any sense is that whilst the UK has acted on dissatisfaction with the EU by leaving, there is somehow an assumption that there was no choice for us and there is no choice for the other member countries either. Our government chose a referendum against negotiation, what makes anyone think that others will necessarily make the same choice? Ironically, Brexit has encouraged more flexibilty in attitudes within the EU and for example, discussion of suspending the Schengen agreement is no longer the taboo of the past.

One aspect of the UK attitude toward the EU that seems completely bizarre is that somehow the Union cannot be adjusted and that it's a completely binary situation. In or out - functioning or explosion. ...yet, that is exactly the opposite of what's happening within the UK itself: a large proportion of the population believe that another almost equally large number have chosen badly / well, yet the trains run (sometimes), people pay their taxes and life goes on. Deals and compromises will be made and we'll have a new normal. Why is it inconceivable that the countries that make up the EU are themselves capable of deals and comprises?

BTW. IMO the EU as it it stands is crap... but not much more crap and probably a lot less, than the alternative.

An excellent w/e to all

 

[counter_violent]

Whilst I don't think anybody (except perhaps a few chemically enhanced Faragistas) has actually uttered the word "Empire", there is definitely an air of nostalgia about the whole Brexit idea - that by returning to the good old days of pre-EU, Pre-EEC arrangements that the country will be catapulted toward a brighter future. I absolutely agree that Britain is going to be launched into a brave new world but I reckon we might have a few decades in the Slough of Despond before reaching a level any better than we have now.

Assuming that the folk wishing to leave all that pertains to the EU have a clear understanding of the huge amount of work and progress that will be unravelled in this process, then of course, they will already have well laid plans of how the economy will weather the coming storms and who will be the new replacement trading partners.

Personally, I've seen no evidence of this and the mood seems to be that somehow we're going to do great business with regimes that 5 minutes ago we didn't want to have that much to do with and everything will be all right on the night. You'll have to forgive me for being just a teensy bit sceptical on this - taking China as one "partner" being bandied about recently: again, it's true that as Moggly sez, there are queues of people who can't wait to buy cheap Chinese shoes but the small matter of said Chinese empire (there! I said it) destabilising the Far East and now having a crack at doing the same in Asia represents - how can I put this?- a fly in the ointment....

The other bit that just doesn't make any sense is that whilst the UK has acted on dissatisfaction with the EU by leaving, there is somehow an assumption that there was no choice for us and there is no choice for the other member countries either. Our government chose a referendum against negotiation, what makes anyone think that others will necessarily make the same choice? Ironically, Brexit has encouraged more flexibilty in attitudes within the EU and for example, discussion of suspending the Schengen agreement is no longer the taboo of the past.

One aspect of the UK attitude toward the EU that seems completely bizarre is that somehow the Union cannot be adjusted and that it's a completely binary situation. In or out - functioning or explosion. ...yet, that is exactly the opposite of what's happening within the UK itself: a large proportion of the population believe that another almost equally large number have chosen badly / well, yet the trains run (sometimes), people pay their taxes and life goes on. Deals and compromises will be made and we'll have a new normal. Why is it inconceivable that the countries that make up the EU are themselves capable of deals and comprises?

BTW. IMO the EU as it it stands is crap... but not much more crap and probably a lot less, than the alternative.

An excellent w/e to all

Well Cameron tried (but not very hard) to make them see sense and change course, but no, they know best ! So the Brits have gone and done what the Brits do best, Liberation ! They were asking for it after all, and none of them have the sphericals to instigate it themselves. So once again, it's down the the good ole UK to come to their rescue. Only difference this time ......no shots fired !

PS. I'm only saying what others are thinking

 

[Signalcalc]

Whilst I don't think anybody (except perhaps a few chemically enhanced Faragistas) has actually uttered the word "Empire", there is definitely an air of nostalgia about the whole Brexit idea - that by returning to the good old days of pre-EU, Pre-EEC arrangements that the country will be catapulted toward a brighter future. I absolutely agree that Britain is going to be launched into a brave new world but I reckon we might have a few decades in the Slough of Despond before reaching a level any better than we have now.

So we are not talking about Empire now? It's getting a tad confusing, what era are the Brexiteers apparently harking back to exactly?

I've seen no evidence of this and the mood seems to be that somehow we're going to do great business with regimes that 5 minutes ago we didn't want to have that much to do with and everything will be all right on the night. You'll have to forgive me for being just a teensy bit sceptical on this - taking China as one "partner" being bandied about recently: again, it's true that as Moggly sez, there are queues of people who can't wait to buy cheap Chinese shoes but the small matter of said Chinese empire (there! I said it) destabilising the Far East and now having a crack at doing the same in Asia represents - how can I put this?- a fly in the ointment....

Correct my understanding on this. The trade-off for being a member of the 'common market' is that those members of it are restricted by the EU from making trade deals with non-EU members, or setting vastly different tax regimes and other restrictions? Would that be a reason why we have had no interest in other trading partners until now?

The other bit that just doesn't make any sense is that whilst the UK has acted on dissatisfaction with the EU by leaving, there is somehow an assumption that there was no choice for us and there is no choice for the other member countries either. Our government chose a referendum against negotiation, what makes anyone think that others will necessarily make the same choice? Ironically, Brexit has encouraged more flexibilty in attitudes within the EU and for example, discussion of suspending the Schengen agreement is no longer the taboo of the past.

Believing that the EU will compromise on Schengen in a meaningful way is difficult especially given the contention over the Irish border and disputes with Poland, Hungary, Romania, et al.

One aspect of the UK attitude toward the EU that seems completely bizarre is that somehow the Union cannot be adjusted and that it's a completely binary situation.

Cameron's visit to the EU prior to the referendum proved that the EU is intransigent, since the referendum the intransigence has got worse.

 

[Splitlink]

That is, actually, part of the scary part. Liberating us! Do you have dealings with Europe much?

I think that the UK has shown us a lot about disorganisation. It is, now twenty months since the referendum and you, still, do not know how you are going to do Brexit negotiations with Brussels. EU,on the other hand, were supposed to be the disorganised ones--not you. You were supposed to know, exactly, where you were going. I have news for you. the 27 disorganised nations have had ample time to get their act together.

Time will tell. That is something that the EU have and why you keep coming back empty handed, with another parliamentay crisis on your hands.

 

[Atilla]

So we are not talking about Empire now? It's getting a tad confusing, what era are the Brexiteers apparently harking back to exactly?

Correct my understanding on this. The trade-off for being a member of the 'common market' is that those members of it are restricted by the EU from making trade deals with non-EU members, or setting vastly different tax regimes and other restrictions? Would that be a reason why we have had no interest in other trading partners until now?

NO NO NO! FGS trade agreements are made all the time except they are made as a block and not per single country. Are you unable to grasp the bargaining power of the block.

EU is far more able and better organised to conduct deals as a single market. That's where many efficiencies and benefits come from.

Believing that the EU will compromise on Schengen in a meaningful way is difficult especially given the contention over the Irish border and disputes with Poland, Hungary, Romania, et al.

Cameron's visit to the EU prior to the referendum proved that the EU is intransigent, since the referendum the intransigence has got worse.

EU knows UK is on to a good thing and what's on the table fairly balanced. EU migrant benefits far less generous than UK. No deal necessary and Cameron could have done much more at home tightening policy.

!

 

[Signalcalc]

Correct my understanding on this. The trade-off for being a member of the 'common market' is that those members of it are restricted by the EU from making trade deals with non-EU members, or setting vastly different tax regimes and other restrictions? Would that be a reason why we have had no interest in other trading partners until now?

NO NO NO! FGS trade agreements are made all the time except they are made as a block and not per single country. Are you unable to grasp the bargaining power of the block.

EU is far more able and better organised to conduct deals as a single market. That's where many efficiencies and benefits come from.

So my previous assumption is correct along with my understanding of the trade-off :cheesy:

 

[cantagril]

So we are not talking about Empire now? It's getting a tad confusing, what era are the Brexiteers apparently harking back to exactly?

Mea Culpa. I should have explained that its was"to the good old days of pre-EU, Pre-EEC arrangements"...that era, there

Correct my understanding on this. The trade-off for being a member of the 'common market' is that those members of it are restricted by the EU from making trade deals with non-EU members, or setting vastly different tax regimes and other restrictions? Would that be a reason why we have had no interest in other trading partners until now?

Don't understand here myself. Of course membership covers trading conditions with non-members...um, that's kind of the point of a community wide trade agreement - also, I was under the impression that there are few countries with which the EU does not trade so who are the "other" trading partners you are referring to? I had understood that the current Brexit line is that we will trade with mostly the same countries but in many cases will allow them cheaper access to the UK market.

Believing that the EU will compromise on Schengen in a meaningful way is difficult especially given the contention over the Irish border and disputes with Poland, Hungary, Romania, et al.

Yep. True. That said, discussions are taking place and modifications will eventually happen.


Cameron's visit to the EU prior to the referendum proved that the EU is intransigent, since the referendum the intransigence has got worse.

Again, yes - sadly true. But naturally the default position of the EU is intransigence but Cameron is such a poor apology for a PM that he completely misunderstood both the game he was playing and the nature of the stakes. I loathed Margaret Thatcher (or rather, the majority of her policies) but even today, older Europeans look back almost fondly at someone who was not afraid to say "Non!" even if not one of their own. She had respect and was a force to be reckoned with - she understood perfectly who to talk to and how to talk to them to get what she wanted and when it came to the UK's interests in Europe, that got results. When Maggie was ranting and swinging her handbag at people's heads to make her points, our man Dave effectively walked away from the table half way through the game....The most common reaction of Europeans to the mention of David Cameron today is "Who?" and this grey incapable non-entity is the man mostly responsible for getting us to where we are today.

 

[Atilla]

So my previous assumption is correct along with my understanding of the trade-off :cheesy:

Sorry old boy I fail to see what assumption you are banging your drum about.

Prove this prove that can you please speak in English.

I did point this out to you before.


Maybe you should test to see if your assumption that everyone understands wot you rabbit on about is valid.

It might be a good idea to give them numbers too so we know which assumption you are on.


Thanks

 

[cantagril]

... So the Brits have gone and done what the Brits do best, Liberation ! They were asking for it after all, and none of them have the sphericals to instigate it themselves. So once again, it's down the the good ole UK to come to their rescue. Only difference this time ......no shots fired !

Hmmm, you and I have different understandings of what "Liberation" means. To me it's "emancipation, setting free, releasing" and all that kind of stuff whereas from your quill it's rather more "scarpering, running away, getting hence"........

....nothing at all to do with Attila's rabbit

 

[Signalcalc]

Mea Culpa. I should have explained that its was "to the good old days of pre-EU, Pre-EEC arrangements"...that era, there

Empire, pre-EEC, good ol' days ? They are hardly factors that are uppermost in the minds of Brexiteers at the moment. As has been said, there may be some 'faragists' that pop into reality from time to time, mention Churchill or something and then nurse comes along to tuck them back into their gold plated care home beds for a few more days. UKIP & Farage served their purpose in convincing the public to vote out, but they are a spent force nowadays, restricted to MSM tittle tattle about racist girlfriends and Trump supporting speeches etc.

Time has moved on rapidly since the good ol' days of the referendum, we are in a new world where opportunity to ponder on what was deserves little thinking space.

Don't understand here myself. Of course membership covers trading conditions with non-members...um, that's kind of the point of a community wide trade agreement - also, I was under the impression that there are few countries with which the EU does not trade so who are the "other" trading partners you are referring to? I had understood that the current Brexit line is that we will trade with mostly the same countries but in many cases will allow them cheaper access to the UK market.

So this answers your original point, we are seeking trade agreements with new countries because we can (or have to), free from EU restrictions and free from the block negotiating power of the EU, we must make new friends, whereas before we could be laissez-faire about such things, now we must be proactive.

Again, yes - sadly true. But naturally the default position of the EU is intransigence but Cameron is such a poor apology for a PM that he completely misunderstood both the game he was playing and the nature of the stakes. I loathed Margaret Thatcher (or rather, the majority of her policies) but even today, older Europeans look back almost fondly at someone who was not afraid to say "Non!" even if not one of their own. She had respect and was a force to be reckoned with - she understood perfectly who to talk to and how to talk to them to get what she wanted and when it came to the UK's interests in Europe, that got results. When Maggie was ranting and swinging her handbag at people's heads to make her points, our man Dave effectively walked away from the table half way through the game....The most common reaction of Europeans to the mention of David Cameron today is "Who?" and this grey incapable non-entity is the man mostly responsible for getting us to where we are today.

Of course, we all know about good and poor leadership, dare I hark back to the [good ol'] days of Churchill?

 

[Signalcalc]

Sorry old boy I fail to see what assumption you are banging your drum about.

Prove this prove that can you please speak in English.

I did point this out to you before.


Maybe you should test to see if your assumption that everyone understands wot you rabbit on about is valid.

It might be a good idea to give them numbers too so we know which assumption you are on.


Thanks

I understand it's Sunday, time for some down time, maybe a beer or two, or is it a hangover that is interfering with your memory? Remember this morning when you stated that Brexiteers are harking back to days of Empire and I stated that my assumption is that this is just a myth perpetuated by Remoaners (one of many) and unless it can be proved not be a myth, then I'll assume my assumption is true (and therefore has just become a fact)?

But when challenged, you couldn't provide any evidence? So it is a FACT that it is a myth perpetuated by Remainers.

I just can't get it more English than plain