Brexit and the Consequences

[tomorton]

Isn’t that a bit like the old joke “we all know what you are, madam, we’re just haggling about the price”.

No tax avoidance is morally justified unless sponsored by government (like ISAs). Doesn’t matter if you’re one of them or one of us.

All tax avoidance is morally justified. Moral blackmail of citizens acting within the law is morally unjustified.

 

[Atilla]

All tax avoidance is morally justified. Moral blackmail of citizens acting within the law is morally unjustified.

Some men think with their brains.
Some with their hearts.
Some with their dicks.


You are surely a man with a brain dear Tomorton. My respects to you sir 👍

 

[Atilla]

We hosted a tapas evening for a few friends last night so I'm feeling a tad Cava'd this morning. On top of that, it's chilly, damp and grey here in south Devon so I'm in need of a little pick me up. Something to lift the spirits and brighten the day. By chance, bang on cue, an e-mail plonked in my inbox from one of my remainer friends. Just what I needed - I read it and can't stop laughing. And the great thing about it is that it'll make Atilla, jon, dbp et al happy too! Everyone's a winner, enjoy: Brexit is reversible even after date is set, says author of article 50
Tim.

Dear Timy Tim Tim!

What you need to think about is where the rule of law and Parliament has gone in the UK when advisory politically induced referendums and words spoken by an unstable, not very competent and most unpopular PM becomes some kind of defacto Law.


I have contempt for people who haven't a clue and are so easilly led by lies and deceit.


Thought Gordon Brown put it really well with his four red lines and how each one has been a non-delivery, no-show hot air and much gaseous matter produced by the likes of Tories and UKIP. Empty promises like empty vessels. Throw them against a hard floor and everyone will be aghast at discovering "they were empty all along as promises shatter into fragments of what they meant and not what they promised"!

No sh1t Sherlock! :idea:

 

[dbphoenix]

Interesting how the more indefensible the Brexiters' position becomes, the snarkier they get. 😉

 

[Atilla]

Interesting how the more indefensible the Brexiters' position becomes, the snarkier they get. 😉

Yes, very much so.

You know like if the lie about £350m being redirected to the NHS wasn't enough, it's now £1bn a week. They can really say anything they like as there is a big appetite for BS in the Brexit crowd. Who freaking needs experts when we have clowns and the daily trash.

When one is soooo much in the sh1t up to their eyeballs what is there to do but top up with the £1bn per week cost of EU BS. 😆😆😆 ABSoooluuutely hilarious!

First SignalCalc and now CV, hoisting links up as if arguments support their position only to realise --- ooopppsy indeed. 👍

 

[barjon]

All tax avoidance is morally justified. Moral blackmail of citizens acting within the law is morally unjustified.

You’ve got some funny morals then 🙂

 

[Atilla]

You’ve got some funny morals then 🙂

I think you are being tad too harsh Mr B.

Some men can't afford morals. :whistling

 

[barjon]

I think you are being tad too harsh Mr B.

Some men can't afford morals. :

Knowing what’s right doesn’t necessarily make you do what’s right. Bit like cutting a trade really 😆

 

[dbphoenix]

Knowing what’s right doesn’t necessarily make you do what’s right. Bit like cutting a trade really 😆

If you pursue this argument, then you also have to argue that the law itself is immoral. Otherwise, following the law, even if some consider it to be tax avoidance, is not immoral.

 

[barjon]

If you pursue this argument, then you also have to argue that the law itself is immoral. Otherwise, following the law, even if some consider it to be tax avoidance, is not immoral.

But people do not follow the law, they exploit the law by identifying situations not properly covered by the law. There’s no law instructing you to open an offshore account, for example. It’s the fault of the parliamentary draftsmen for not covering all eventualities, although that’s a nigh impossible job.

 

[dbphoenix]

The practice may be unpatriotic, but it's not immoral.

It's just another device of the rich. If it truly bothered lawmakers, they'd change the law, or cover what isn't covered. But they don't because these people are their donors.

Welcome to capitalism.

 

[timsk]

Interesting how the more indefensible the Brexiters' position becomes, the snarkier they get. 😉

. . . Or, possibly, the more indefensible the remainers' position becomes, the more humorless they get. 😉

 

[tomorton]

You’ve got some funny morals then 🙂

Morals. I believe in morals. I believe in the traditional western morals, they might be said to be roughly Judaeo-Christian though I'm not religious. I believe theft and murder are wrong. These principles are important enough and universal enough to be enshrined in English law.

I believe in the rule of English law. I believe if the law says you must do something, you do it unless some very heavy circumstances prevent it. I believe equally strongly that is if the law does not say you must do it, that is because whatever it is is either not important enough or not universal enough to be worth legislation. Therefore, whether I obey the said principle is down to personal beliefs. Mine and not some number-chasing journalist or self-serving politician, people I generally wouldn't trust to hold my car keys.

In this particular instance, it is open to every one of us to pay more tax than our tax bill. We can refuse tax rebates. We can bequeath money and assets to the government on our death. People have done this and probably some will be doing it right now.

Before we criticise tax avoiders for not gifting money to HMRC, maybe we should look ar our own financial affairs and cancel our ISA's, as they are also a tax avoidance scheme, and remember back to all the tax allowances we've benefitted from abd pay them back, and root our our Wills and ask ourselves if we couldn't leave the NHS a little cash?

But I think we should be free from being accused of having funny morals if we don't.

 

[dbphoenix]

. . . Or, possibly, the more indefensible the remainers' position becomes, the more humorless they get. 😉

It's good that you find humor in this situation. You'll need it as the months drag on.

 

[Atilla]

I have had Brexit visions of our Tim applying for a Portuguese passport and changing his name to Teodoro soon enough.

I don't find that very funny though 😢


:cheesy:

 

[Atilla]

Morals. I believe in morals. I believe in the traditional western morals, they might be said to be roughly Judaeo-Christian though I'm not religious. I believe theft and murder are wrong. These principles are important enough and universal enough to be enshrined in English law.

I believe in the rule of English law. I believe if the law says you must do something, you do it unless some very heavy circumstances prevent it. I believe equally strongly that is if the law does not say you must do it, that is because whatever it is is either not important enough or not universal enough to be worth legislation. Therefore, whether I obey the said principle is down to personal beliefs. Mine and not some number-chasing journalist or self-serving politician, people I generally wouldn't trust to hold my car keys.

In this particular instance, it is open to every one of us to pay more tax than our tax bill. We can refuse tax rebates. We can bequeath money and assets to the government on our death. People have done this and probably some will be doing it right now.

Before we criticise tax avoiders for not gifting money to HMRC, maybe we should look ar our own financial affairs and cancel our ISA's, as they are also a tax avoidance scheme, and remember back to all the tax allowances we've benefitted from abd pay them back, and root our our Wills and ask ourselves if we couldn't leave the NHS a little cash?

But I think we should be free from being accused of having funny morals if we don't.

So I may judge your morals and weigh mine, what car do you drive Tomorton?

 

[barjon]

...........Before we criticise tax avoiders for not gifting money to HMRC, maybe we should look ar our own financial affairs and cancel our ISA's, as they are also a tax avoidance scheme, and remember back to all the tax allowances we've benefitted from abd pay them back, and root our our Wills and ask ourselves if we couldn't leave the NHS a little cash?

But I think we should be free from being accused of having funny morals if we don't..........

The law requires that we pay a set proportion of our income as tax, save for the allowances and financial arrangements like ISAs approved by government. So we all know what is intended by the law. Or, if you like, what is right and what is our moral obligation.

If we then circumvent that intention in some way and can get away with it because what we are doing is not specifically denied under the law (a loophole) then we might be legally legitimate but not morally since we know we are circumventing what is intended by the law and thus our moral obligation.

 

[tomorton]

The law requires that we pay a set proportion of our income as tax, save for the allowances and financial arrangements like ISAs approved by government. So we all know what is intended by the law. Or, if you like, what is right and what is our moral obligation.

If we then circumvent that intention in some way and can get away with it because what we are doing is not specifically denied under the law (a loophole) then we might be legally legitimate but not morally since we know we are circumventing what is intended by the law and thus our moral obligation.

These loopholes have been common knowledge for decades so we have to presume it is not the will of Parliament to seal them.

It is not down to the individual to imagine up an obligation that might or might not have been in the minds of MP's and Lords when a certain law was passed. It is for the individual to obey the letter of the law.

The courts have the power to enforce the spirit of a law, up to a point, but that relies on a case being brought before them. I say the government should bring these people to the courts, or keep their traps shut.

 

[timsk]

It's good that you find humor in this situation. You'll need it as the months drag on.

You won't be surprised to learn dbp that I take the polar opposite view. The impossible negotiating position that the EU is in is plain for all to see and the cracks are starting to show. Look no further than Barnier's absurd and meaningless two week deadline. Big mistake. Massive. Huge. Oh, and funny too! 😛

 

[FXX]

You won't be surprised to learn dbp that I take the polar opposite view. The impossible negotiating position that the EU is in is plain for all to see and the cracks are starting to show. Look no further than Barnier's absurd and meaningless two week deadline. Big mistake. Massive. Huge. Oh, and funny too! 😛

Hopefully the UK will stick to the guns and tell them to f...off