Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

What in your opinion is the best solution to the above then ?

A. Bring in skilled foreign labour inc families.

B. Encourage company training scheems and train our youth and unemployed ?

Secondly....which of the above puts a massive strain on public services ? Housing, schools etc etc.....

I know you will come back with the old aged argument that immigration is good for the economy, thats nothing but political spin mainly from Cameron, due to the fact that it was out of control.

A. Controlling migration is necessary and would favour a points system similar to Australia's in kind based on UK's requirements. I've said this before. Nothing wrong with this approach.

Before you can control immigration you need to understand its composition.

More than half is to do with migration coming from outside of the EU, so banning stopping European labour is not a fix to your question A or to that relating to infrastructure below.

60% of all migration are fee paying students who having paid 10s of 000s of pounds to our educational establishments, usually stay on. I don't think highly trained young people who the country needs during an aging population crises should be turned away. They certainly do become the productive and creative, high tax paying members of society.

The country needs, nurses, doctors and fruit pickers and manufacturing skills and steel metal sheet workers etc. As well as R&D workers in drugs, technology and electronics industries.

You will not be able to train these people in the necessary numbers or level of skills with our current youth as we have a declining birth rate, or in the time period required.

Interfering in the supply & management of these industries is just foolish to say the least. It's simply ludicrous the **** n bull stories that have been sold to the British public by Faragaga and the Daily Trash. Bunch of morons imo. Words fail me. Sounds good but all b0ll0cks.


B. I do think your point B is an excellent good idea and we should be doing it anyway. Once again how does being a member of the EU stop us from training our own... like NOW not when we Brexit?

Stopping 25% of total migration from the EU will not resolve UK''s migration issue. That's a fact. Stop and pause and think about what you've been promised. Do research on the numbers your self, easy enough with google.

I would also add we need to control migration outside of EU from far away cultures and lands. Brexit doesn't address this major point either.

 

[Jason101]

What in your opinion is the best solution to the above then ?


I know you will come back with the old aged argument that immigration is good for the economy, thats nothing but political spin mainly from Cameron, due to the fact that it was out of control.

We are living in an economy of an aging population.

Banks create new money whenever they make loans, they create about three times the original loan, which can also be loaned out. 97% of the money in the economy today is created by banks. This needs to continually expand for the system to work.

When we are maxed out on debt, the banks still need to make loans in order for continual expansion, so in walks the debt free immigrant who is able to take out full loans and continue the money creation in the system.

This is an international phenomenon and to suggest its just Cameron's spin would be to greatly over estimate his international influence.

 

[mike.]

We are living in an economy of an aging population.

Banks create new money whenever they make loans, they create about three times the original loan, which can also be loaned out. 97% of the money in the economy today is created by banks. This needs to continually expand for the system to work.

When we are maxed out on debt, the banks still need to make loans in order for continual expansion, so in walks the debt free immigrant who is able to take out full loans and continue the money creation in the system.

This is an international phenomenon and to suggest its just Cameron's spin would be to greatly over estimate his international influence.

Loans secured on what exactly ? Any loan requires a financial history in this country, Banks would not lend to low paid immigrants in rented accommodation , which is the majority of lmigration.

 

[Atilla]

Loans secured on what exactly ? Any loan requires a financial history in this country, Banks would not lend to low paid immigrants in rented accommodation , which is the majority of lmigration.

Not true at all.

We've had this discussion on migrant composition before. Why is it that daily trash is regurgitated without any meaningful numbers on who the immigrants are.

Large number are students coupled with active and working bodies in many different and vital industries.

Can you provide any numbers and data to back your assertion please?

 

[timsk]

That's federalism. The US has been trying to do it with 13 to 50 pegs for many years. Whether or not we will ultimately succeed remains to be seen, but I suspect not.

Hi dbp,
FWIW, I think the U.S. has a much better chance of success than the EU, depending of course, on how one defines success. Indeed, many would argue that the U.S. has already succeeded. After all, it is the world's largest economy - a position it's held since 1871.

The key difference between the U.S. and EU member countries is that the U.S. is relatively new. I realize it's made up of peoples from all over the globe, but I'll wager that the majority of them think of themselves as Americans, as opposed to Italian, Chinese or whoever who happen to be living in the U.S. This is not the case with the EU. Each member country has its own distinct identity: the French think of themselves as French, the Greeks Greek and Spaniards Spanish etc. and they are all very different. There is no real common purpose or goal - other than the one that Brussels is trying to impose upon them. And, as Tom pointed out, the EU is essentially a socialist organisation, "with its aim not being prosperity for its population but political unification of all its populations under a single government." c_v went further with his comment that: "The EU is just another giant socialist ponzi scheme where wealth is transferred from those who are productive, to those who are feckless." I'll defer to your knowledge of your own country's ethos and values but, my understanding is that the modus operandi of the EU is pretty much the exact opposite of that of the U.S. which puts capitalism at the heart of everything it does with minimal government intervention that gives the people the freedom to do what they want when they want. The U.S. and the EU may share some tenets of federalism - but their political common ground pretty much begins and ends there.
Tim.

 

[mike.]

Not true at all.

We've had this discussion on migrant composition before. Why is it that daily trash is regurgitated without any meaningful numbers on who the immigrants are.

Large number are students coupled with active and working bodies in many different and vital industries.

Can you provide any numbers and data to back your assertion please?

Official figures vary based on agenda, so I'm speaking from personal experience ...low paid car valeters, car hire non office based workers, cleaning staff, zero hours contracts in most factories like sports direct for example all low paid immigrant workers....fact.

 

[Atilla]

Official figures vary based on agenda, so I'm speaking from personal experience ...low paid car valeters, car hire non office based workers, cleaning staff, zero hours contracts in most factories like sports direct for example all low paid immigrant workers....fact.

Same here speaking from experience... Hospital doctors, nurses, car mechanics, roofing contractors, machine operators, teachers, lecturers and of course IT workers. We should mention our rich culinary food industry too. Chefs and waiting staff.

Fact.

Then there are real numbers and data published by HMS Guv

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2017

 

[Splitlink]

This is an international phenomenon and to suggest its just Cameron's spin would be to greatly over estimate his international influence.

Which is why capitalism must collapse, in the end. With an aging population and a declining currency, pensions are becoming worthless.

The answer from optimists is "something else will come up". What will that "something" be? I don't know but, then,I'm not a politician or an economist.

Hopefully, I shall be looking down, from above, before that happens, but happen, it will.

 

[dbphoenix]

Hi dbp,
FWIW, I think the U.S. has a much better chance of success than the EU, depending of course, on how one defines success. Indeed, many would argue that the U.S. has already succeeded. After all, it is the world's largest economy - a position it's held since 1871.

The key difference between the U.S. and EU member countries is that the U.S. is relatively new. I realize it's made up of peoples from all over the globe, but I'll wager that the majority of them think of themselves as Americans, as opposed to Italian, Chinese or whoever who happen to be living in the U.S. This is not the case with the EU. Each member country has its own distinct identity: the French think of themselves as French, the Greeks Greek and Spaniards Spanish etc. and they are all very different. There is no real common purpose or goal - other than the one that Brussels is trying to impose upon them. And, as Tom pointed out, the EU is essentially a socialist organisation, "with its aim not being prosperity for its population but political unification of all its populations under a single government." c_v went further with his comment that: "The EU is just another giant socialist ponzi scheme where wealth is transferred from those who are productive, to those who are feckless." I'll defer to your knowledge of your own country's ethos and values but, my understanding is that the modus operandi of the EU is pretty much the exact opposite of that of the U.S. which puts capitalism at the heart of everything it does with minimal government intervention that gives the people the freedom to do what they want when they want. The U.S. and the EU may share some tenets of federalism - but their political common ground pretty much begins and ends there.
Tim.

Summing up US history in a paragraph would serve no purpose, even if it were possible, but conditions at the beginning were nothing like they are now. The originators did not think of themselves as "Americans". In fact, we had a protracted and bloody civil war which continues to this day. As for government intervention, the various governments are involved in just about every aspect of the average inhabitant's life (as for people having the freedom to do what they want when they want, you may want to run that by those who aren't white).

Invoking "isms" short-circuits thought. This is particularly true when it comes to cv. If one spends more than a little time reading this thread, it becomes clear that it all comes down to whether one sees an old woman in a cap or a young woman in a mirror. Thus the same arguments get recycled again and again and each side becomes more entrenched. The same mistakes are made again and again -- such as breaking up the EU -- and the same lessons are learned again and again and no genuine progress is made. Thus we are all single-mindedly engaged in cutting holes in the lifeboat.

 

[Atilla]

Hi dbp,
FWIW, I think the U.S. has a much better chance of success than the EU, depending of course, on how one defines success. Indeed, many would argue that the U.S. has already succeeded. After all, it is the world's largest economy - a position it's held since 1871.

The key difference between the U.S. and EU member countries is that the U.S. is relatively new. I realize it's made up of peoples from all over the globe, but I'll wager that the majority of them think of themselves as Americans, as opposed to Italian, Chinese or whoever who happen to be living in the U.S. This is not the case with the EU. Each member country has its own distinct identity: the French think of themselves as French, the Greeks Greek and Spaniards Spanish etc. and they are all very different. There is no real common purpose or goal - other than the one that Brussels is trying to impose upon them. And, as Tom pointed out, the EU is essentially a socialist organisation, "with its aim not being prosperity for its population but political unification of all its populations under a single government." c_v went further with his comment that: "The EU is just another giant socialist ponzi scheme where wealth is transferred from those who are productive, to those who are feckless." I'll defer to your knowledge of your own country's ethos and values but, my understanding is that the modus operandi of the EU is pretty much the exact opposite of that of the U.S. which puts capitalism at the heart of everything it does with minimal government intervention that gives the people the freedom to do what they want when they want. The U.S. and the EU may share some tenets of federalism - but their political common ground pretty much begins and ends there.
Tim.

I beg to differ with this perspective that they see them selves as one country.

Yes that is true to some extent and people often unite over shared interests and goals fighting a common enemy but it is not as you make it out.

In my travels around the US I felt there were distinctions between migrants. Hispanics, Mexicans, African blacks, the Dutch American, the Boston Irish. East Coast West Coast, North / South device, central plains and of course Alaska and Texas. Some central areas deeply religious and still very much set in their old ways and then at Los Angeles free and easy very liberal. Let's not forget the Jewish settlements and all powerful lobby either or the Latinos and the Italians. There are quite a few more but you get the jist.

They may look all cohesive but that's because they haven't really had anything to disturb their eco-system as yet. Big wide continent with lots of space, money and wealth.

Look at Spain even within the country Basque separatists and Catalan's want their independence. Same in Italy with North South divide. These issues only come to the surface when these different identities are packed into a smaller space with smaller cakes to share. US doesn't have this issue perhaps as a country but in big cities they are still in their little distinct ghettos much as before. They all have their little quarters.


Coming back to the EU, it has changed much since WWII and I don't envisage it ever going back to those daft dark old days. There is much more integration of poeple too from different backgrounds. This will continue imo.

 

[counter_violent]

Why use One word when you can use hundreds.

Tribalism.

 

[mike.]

Same here speaking from experience... Hospital doctors, nurses, car mechanics, roofing contractors, machine operators, teachers, lecturers and of course IT workers. We should mention our rich culinary food industry too. Chefs and waiting staff.

Fact.

Then there are real numbers and data published by HMS Guv

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2017

so, are you saying that the country could not function without immigrants filling the above positions or its just easier and cheaper to use them as opposed to training our own. ?

Furthermore, the Syrian , Iraq immigrants will have been in the Eu coming up to 3,4 years now ? And still coming, all elegable for EU passports after 5 years ? Correct me if I'm wrong....on top of that, Turkey is getting a step closer to EU membership. Every day and could well join within 5-10 years, now would you like to estimate how many Of those mentioned are elegable to come and live in the UK ? Also would they be elegable for the following ...free education, free NHS, housing, etc ...and you wonder why there's a strain on public services, look forward 10 years, what's it going to be like. ? ?

 

[timsk]

Hi dbp,

. . . As for government intervention, the various governments are involved in just about every aspect of the average inhabitant's life (as for people having the freedom to do what they want when they want, you may want to run that by those who aren't white).

Lol, I'm not saying there's no government intervention and I accept fully there are still unresolved issues regarding citizens born with skin colour other than pinkish white. However, let's put this into some sort of perspective. You have it easy compared to EU members who are immersed in an ever deepening quagmire of bureaucracy. Brussels seeks to regulate and micro manage every corner of our lives from when we get up in the morning to when we go to bed - and everything in between. By way of example, there are 5 laws for pillow cases. Yes, pillow cases! Pillows are vastly more complex obviously, so there's 109 laws pertaining to those. 50 laws for duvets and sheets, 31 for toothbrushes and no less than 47 for toothpaste. But this is nothing compared to foodstuffs: they go off the Richter scale. There are 1,246 laws relating to bread and well in excess of 12,000 pertaining to milk. To be fair, the white stuff can go off quite quickly, especially in the warm weather we've experienced recently here in the U.K. Anyway, if you can compete with government intervention of this scale - then I'll accept that your various governments have meddled - and continue to meddle - in every aspect of the average U.S. inhabitant's life. However, my guess is that democrats and republicans alike will take the (sensible) view that such excessive intervention is unnecessary and is more likely to hinder rather than it is to help.

Invoking "isms" short-circuits thought. This is particularly true when it comes to cv. If one spends more than a little time reading this thread, it becomes clear that it all comes down to whether one sees an old woman in a cap or a young woman in a mirror.

Sorry, I'm afraid you've lost me, I don't understand your point.

Thus the same arguments get recycled again and again and each side becomes more entrenched. The same mistakes are made again and again -- such as breaking up the EU -- and the same lessons are learned again and again and no genuine progress is made. Thus we are all single-mindedly engaged in cutting holes in the lifeboat.

Well, clearly you take the view that Britain leaving the EU is repeating a mistake of old. I dare say that someone (not me!) could make a case that joining the EU is repeating a mistake of old. It boils down to each person's perspective and what they believe. I believe the U.K. will be better off outside of it and, moreover, that the whole thing will collapse one day anyway for the same reason that causes all Ponzi schemes to collapse eventually.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Hi dbp,

Lol, I'm not saying there's no government intervention and I accept fully there are still unresolved issues regarding citizens born with skin colour other than pinkish white. However, let's put this into some sort of perspective. You have it easy compared to EU members who are immersed in an ever deepening quagmire of bureaucracy. Brussels seeks to regulate and micro manage every corner of our lives from when we get up in the morning to when we go to bed - and everything in between. By way of example, there are 5 laws for pillow cases. Yes, pillow cases! Pillows are vastly more complex obviously, so there's 109 laws pertaining to those. 50 laws for duvets and sheets, 31 for toothbrushes and no less than 47 for toothpaste. But this is nothing compared to foodstuffs: they go off the Richter scale. There are 1,246 laws relating to bread and well in excess of 12,000 pertaining to milk. To be fair, the white stuff can go off quite quickly, especially in the warm weather we've experienced recently here in the U.K. Anyway, if you can compete with government intervention of this scale - then I'll accept that your various governments have meddled - and continue to meddle - in every aspect of the average U.S. inhabitant's life. However, my guess is that democrats and republicans alike will take the (sensible) view that such excessive intervention is unnecessary and is more likely to hinder rather than it is to help.


Sorry, I'm afraid you've lost me, I don't understand your point.


Well, clearly you take the view that Britain leaving the EU is repeating a mistake of old. I dare say that someone (not me!) could make a case that joining the EU is repeating a mistake of old. It boils down to each person's perspective and what they believe. I believe the U.K. will be better off outside of it and, moreover, that the whole thing will collapse one day anyway for the same reason that causes all Ponzi schemes collapse eventually.
Tim.

What he's saying is, I don't know sh1t

 

[Splitlink]

Mike, I don't think that Turkey is likely to become an EU member, for various reasons. Mine is that Turkey has Iran for a neighbour, as Ukraine has Russia. A perpetual source of traouble. Another reason is that that it is, hardly, a democracy--whatever they may think. I think you got the information from another Brexiter.

Confess!

 

[dbphoenix]

You have it easy compared to EU members who are immersed in an ever deepening quagmire of bureaucracy.

You're speaking from a position of ignorance of what it's like to live in the US. I suggest you not pursue it. The big, mean old Brussels approach does not lend itself to clarity of thought, particularly when making comparisons to what one believes are the conditions in the US.

It boils down to each person's perspective and what they believe.

That is unfortunately correct. But it should boil down to what is objectively real. And by that I don't mean manipulating data in order to achieve confirmation bias.

Start with any sentence that begins "immigrants are . . .".

 

[cantagril]

Why use One word when you can use hundreds.

Where would this forum be if we were concise?

 

[cantagril]

You're speaking from a position of ignorance of what it's like to live in the US. I suggest you not pursue it. The big, mean old Brussels approach does not lend itself to clarity of thought, particularly when making comparisons to what one believes are the conditions in the US.

I can't speak for anywhere else in the EU but as far as France and Italy go, the US compares very well in the bureaucracy stakes. For anyone that has personal experience the level of intrusion of "the State" into the minutiae of people's lives is of a different magnitude....though it was pretty much the same long before the EU was even a glint in Monnet's eye - or Schuman's / Adenauer's etc if you prefer.

 

[dbphoenix]

Where would this forum be if we were concise?

As W.C. Fields said, “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****.”

 

[mike.]

Mike, I don't think that Turkey is likely to become an EU member, for various reasons. Mine is that Turkey has Iran for a neighbour, as Ukraine has Russia. A perpetual source of traouble. Another reason is that that it is, hardly, a democracy--whatever they may think. I think you got the information from another Brexiter.

Confess!

. Might not be as long as you think split.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35832035