Brexit and the Consequences

[Jason101]

Everyone will have a multitude of different reasons regarding the debate.

I have no problem with immigration in general, except to say that it is way too high. But I have a massive problem with free movement, uncontrolled unskilled immigration, for all the reasons discussed previously.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ens-should-have-uk-visas-fast-tracked-brexit/

I think a lot of people voted for brexit due to the misguided views that it will curb uncontrolled unskilled immigration.
Our economy model requires continual expansion and we have an aging population. So the politicians will just be farming in immigrants from Africa and Asia instead via the commonwealth.
Immigration numbers will not change, but by leaving the EU immigration will go on for a longer period of time and arrive from poorer continents.
It will continue for a longer period because a rough economic equilibrium is more likely to reached within EU states (and curb immigration) rather than between the UK and the African and Asian continents.

There are already moves to fast-track visas for commonwealth citizens in the light of Brexit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ens-should-have-uk-visas-fast-tracked-brexit/

Edit:

Antigua and Barbuda Kenya Samoa
Australia Kiribati Seychelles
The Bahamas Lesotho Sierra Leone
Bangladesh Malawi Singapore
Barbados Malaysia Solomon Islands
Belize Maldives South Africa
Botswana Malta* Sri Lanka
Brunei Darussalam Mauritius Swaziland
Cameroon Mozambique Tonga
Canada Namibia Trinidad and Tobago
Cyprus* Nauru Tuvalu
Dominica New Zealand Uganda
Fiji Islands Nigeria
Ghana Pakistan United Republic of Tanzania
Grenada Papua New Guinea Vanuatu
Guyana Rwanda Zambia
India St Kitts and Nevis Zimbabwe
Jamaica St Lucia
St Vincent and the Grenadines

 

[mike.]

Unbelievable, is there any point in having this conversation at all.

Well, as it was between me and Atilla, Ill ask him............Atilla, is there any point us having this conversation about Immigrants ? jason was wanting to know...

 

[dbphoenix]

I think a lot of people voted for brexit due to the misguided views that it will curb uncontrolled unskilled immigration.

Seems to me to be the case as well. I'm a disinterested observer, of course, because I don't live there, but given the effects that all of this has had on the market, I've paid attention and read what appears to be "market-moving". Based on that, immigration has appeared to be the chief issue. Why people hold the attitudes they do toward immigration and immigrants is complicated, but, as far as trading is concerned, irrelevant.

But in terms of this thread, anyone seeking illumination with regard to Brexit wouldn't be much better off after having read over three thousand posts than he would have been at the beginning, which is why I suggested that opinions be based on verifiable facts rather than any of the other bases I've mentioned, particularly since the "discussion" does tend to get rather heated from time to time, and for no particularly good reason.

At this point, it seems as though the market really doesn't care what happens with the Brexit negotiations given the carnival show provided by Washington, and that is focused on the continued and uninterrupted redistribution of wealth to the wealthy.

 

[seekingTruth16]

Start with any sentence that begins "immigrants are . . .".

Immigrants are...us. Probably all of us. Maybe not first generation, but there aren't too many Brits claiming a pure bloodline back to the druids are there?

The word immigrant is being badly used.

The problems with immigration seem to arise more when those coming here do not want to integrate or adapt to the country they've entered. By all means add some culture, but if you think you can go to the UK, and they should adopt Sharia law...there's a problem. If you migrate to a country and plan to only live in a community with people of your culture, and not mix or integrate, then it leads to a problem. It is fine having a points based system for entry, but until you fix the willingness to integrate, there will always be suspicion. And this is probably where CV is correct in the tribalism. Except some of us are capable of integrating very well.

 

[barjon]

.......The problems with immigration seem to arise more when those coming here do not want to integrate or adapt to the country they've entered. By all means add some culture, but if you think you can go to the UK, and they should adopt Sharia law...there's a problem. If you migrate to a country and plan to only live in a community with people of your culture, and not mix or integrate, then it leads to a problem........

You mean the way the British have always behaved in the colonies and elsewhere abroad

 

[tomorton]

Immigrants are...us. Probably all of us. Maybe not first generation, but there aren't too many Brits claiming a pure bloodline back to the druids are there?

The word immigrant is being badly used.

The problems with immigration seem to arise more when those coming here do not want to integrate or adapt to the country they've entered. By all means add some culture, but if you think you can go to the UK, and they should adopt Sharia law...there's a problem. If you migrate to a country and plan to only live in a community with people of your culture, and not mix or integrate, then it leads to a problem. It is fine having a points based system for entry, but until you fix the willingness to integrate, there will always be suspicion. And this is probably where CV is correct in the tribalism. Except some of us are capable of integrating very well.

I think the integration argument is a smoke-screen. There are plenty of minority communities around the world who cause no issues to the majority they live alongside, nor to the country they live in, while maintaining their own cultures, languages, religions, customs and traditions.

This isn't a problem we need to find a solution for, when there are problems we do need to face up to.

 

[Splitlink]

Objective data. If there are in fact 12000 laws pertaining to milk and that fact justifies leaving the EU, then enough said. However, one must be careful with regard to whether he's seeking justification or an excuse.

I've lived here for 53 years and it is the first time I that I have read that there were any laws on milk, apart from that it has to be Pasteurised for tb, a law that has been in force since before I was born. The one about straight bananas? I am able to buy both varieties.

Perhaps, I have been oppressed by the weight of EU law since Spain joined but I have not noticed. 12,000 laws on milk! Phew! There should be a law against that!

I wonder if Tim could tell us what law on milk has caused him offence?

 

[barjon]

I've lived here for 53 years and it is the first time I that I have read that there were any laws on milk, apart from that it has to be Pasteurised for tb, a law that has been in force since before I was born. The one about straight bananas? I am able to buy both varieties.

Perhaps, I have been oppressed by the weight of EU law since Spain joined but I have not noticed. 12,000 laws on milk! Phew! There should be a law against that!

I wonder if Tim could tell us what law on milk has caused him offence?

There are only (ONLY ) 40,000 or so laws altogether so I doubt that 12,000 of them pertain to milk. A bit of brexiteer hyperbole I guess

 

[Atilla]

Well, as it was between me and Atilla, Ill ask him............Atilla, is there any point us having this conversation about Immigrants ? jason was wanting to know...

Absolutely, otherwise what is the point of existence.

Life is about social interaction and connecting with people.

 

[timsk]

Hi Tom,

I think the integration argument is a smoke-screen. There are plenty of minority communities around the world who cause no issues to the majority they live alongside, nor to the country they live in, while maintaining their own cultures, languages, religions, customs and traditions.

Agreed.

This isn't a problem we need to find a solution for, when there are problems we do need to face up to.

Agreed again. And the problem that needs addressing IMO is the fact the our schools are full, our hospitals are full, our trains are full and our roads are full etc. In short, the country is full! Figures released this week by the Office for National Statistics estimate the current population at 65,648,000 people. Germane to this debate is that net international migration of 336,000s is the main driver, which equates to 62.4% of the total increase. The colour of people's skin and their religious beliefs etc. are not the issue. They're irrelevant. What is relevant is the sheer numbers who want to come here, numbers that are unsustainable for a relatively small island with finite resources and infrastructure.
Tim.

 

[timsk]

There are only (ONLY ) 40,000 or so laws altogether so I doubt that 12,000 of them pertain to milk. A bit of brexiteer hyperbole I guess

Lol Jon,
I bow to your pedantic prowess! You're correct and I apologize for not being more specific. I used the term 'law' in a generic sense to apply to all EU legislation - including directives, regulations, decisions and international agreements - that are legally binding. Tot that little lot up and I think you'll find they come to rather more than 40,000.

Tim.

 

[barjon]

Hi Tom,
Agreed.


Agreed again. And the problem that needs addressing IMO is the fact the our schools are full, our hospitals are full, our trains are full and our roads are full etc. In short, the country is full! Figures released this week by the Office for National Statistics estimate the current population at 65,648,000 people. Germane to this debate is that net international migration of 336,000s is the main driver, which equates to 62.4% of the total increase. The colour of people's skin and their religious beliefs etc. are not the issue. They're irrelevant. What is relevant is the sheer numbers who want to come here, numbers that are unsustainable for a relatively small island with finite resources and infrastructure.
Tim.

agree. amazing isn't it that with a population this size employers such as the NHS, let alone fruit growers, can't get people to fill the jobs without bring them in from overseas.

 

[tomorton]

Hi Tom,
Agreed.


Agreed again. And the problem that needs addressing IMO is the fact the our schools are full, our hospitals are full, our trains are full and our roads are full etc. In short, the country is full! Figures released this week by the Office for National Statistics estimate the current population at 65,648,000 people. Germane to this debate is that net international migration of 336,000s is the main driver, which equates to 62.4% of the total increase. The colour of people's skin and their religious beliefs etc. are not the issue. They're irrelevant. What is relevant is the sheer numbers who want to come here, numbers that are unsustainable for a relatively small island with finite resources and infrastructure.
Tim.

Cheers Tim, I'm happy we agree non-integration isn't the issue.

But "the country is full!" Really now. You must mean by measure of public services, you cannot mean physically full as far as the high tide mark around the coast.

I think your line of reasoning has to lead neatly into the argument about whether we need to slice the pie more fairly or whether we can make ourselves a bigger pie. I have to always favour the latter first and foremost as it won't help our country to have the most equal but also poorest society in Europe.

 

[barjon]

Lol Jon,
I bow to your pedantic prowess! You're correct and I apologize for not being more specific. I used the term 'law' in a generic sense to apply to all EU legislation - including directives, regulations, decisions and international agreements - that are legally binding. Tot that little lot up and I think you'll find they come to rather more than 40,000.

Tim.

Sure does:

LEGISLATION TOTAL1
40163
SECONDARY LEGISLATION
34707
Regulations
11547
Directives
1842
Decisions
18545
Other acts
2773
INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS
5456
Agreements with non-member states or international organisations
1721
Acts of bodies created by international agreements
3700
Other acts
35
NON-BINDING ACTS2
16917
Recommendations
1599
Communications
15136
White papers
36
Green papers
146
VERDICTS FROM THE EU COURT OF JUSTICE 3)
15023
STANDARDS TOTAL
62397
CEN (European Committee for Standardization)4
14163
CENELEC (European Committee for Electrotechnical Standardization)5
6519
ETSI (European Telecommunications Standards Institute)6
36932
CODEX ALIMENTARIUS (WHO&FAO food standards system)7
4783
GRAND TOTAL
134500

 

[barjon]

Cheers Tim, I'm happy we agree non-integration isn't the issue.

But "the country is full!" Really now. You must mean by measure of public services, you cannot mean physically full as far as the high tide mark around the coast.

I think your line of reasoning has to lead neatly into the argument about whether we need to slice the pie more fairly or whether we can make ourselves a bigger pie. I have to always favour the latter first and foremost as it won't help our country to have the most equal but also poorest society in Europe.

Tomo

As I said earlier "amazing isn't it that with a population this size employers such as the NHS, let alone fruit growers, can't get people to fill the jobs without bring them in from overseas." so I agree that it's not the numbers per se.

The problem is that our infrastructure and public service provision has not kept pace with the growth and shows little sign of doing so. In everyday life these things are getting worse and the sheer pressure of numbers is choking them. Even here in the affluent south I can't drive around with the slightest certainty about how long it's going to take and without shaking my car to bits as I clatter into potholes.

 

[seekingTruth16]

I think the integration argument is a smoke-screen. There are plenty of minority communities around the world who cause no issues to the majority they live alongside, nor to the country they live in, while maintaining their own cultures, languages, religions, customs and traditions.

This isn't a problem we need to find a solution for, when there are problems we do need to face up to.

Causing no issues is not the same as successfully integrating. As for there being plenty of communities who cause no issues, equally there are plenty who do cause issues. There are plenty of people who never commit a crime, then there are some who do. Should we also say crime is a smokescreen, not a problem and move on? Calling it a smoke-screen ignores the problem. Besides you only get to see the real underlying problem when things get a bit uncomfortable for the 'indigenous'.

Not your point tomorton, but I also don't agree the country is full. When I look at London and it's 9 million or so people and I know that there are cities coping with decent transport etc with 20-30 million people, it's hard to say even our biggest city is 'full'. It does 'feel' like there are too many people when you're stuck on the tube, or the house prices are crazy, but that's just bad transport planning and bad house building policy.

 

[seekingTruth16]

You mean the way the British have always behaved in the colonies and elsewhere abroad

quite

 

[timsk]

. . .But "the country is full!" Really now. You must mean by measure of public services, you cannot mean physically full as far as the high tide mark around the coast.

Yes Tom, the former - not the latter - I wasn't being literal! Public services can't cope with the pressures placed on them now, which means that it's only a question of time before one - or some - of them collapse with potentially disastrous consequences. Investment in them needs to be stepped up while, simultaneously, arresting population growth. And the most obvious way to do that is to look at the key driver behind it - i.e. immigration. Controlling immigration might be a political hot potato, but the alternatives to it are worse. For example, we could adopt Herod the Great's policy of infanticide. This might achieve the same result, but I suspect it might not be a vote winner with the electorate.
Tim.

 

[cantagril]

Yes Tom, the former - not the latter - I wasn't being literal! Public services can't cope with the pressures placed on them now, which means that it's only a question of time before one - or some - of them collapse with potentially disastrous consequences. Investment in them needs to be stepped up while, simultaneously, arresting population growth. And the most obvious way to do that is to look at the key driver behind it - i.e. immigration. Controlling immigration might be a political hot potato, but the alternatives to it are worse. For example, we could adopt Herod the Great's policy of infanticide. This might achieve the same result, but I suspect it might not be a vote winner with the electorate.
Tim.

I vote Herod for new Tory party leader. Sound policies with a clear strategy...how could one possibly be against that? Not sure how he'd deal with referenda though....

 

[tomorton]

Tomo

As I said earlier "amazing isn't it that with a population this size employers such as the NHS, let alone fruit growers, can't get people to fill the jobs without bring them in from overseas." so I agree that it's not the numbers per se.

The problem is that our infrastructure and public service provision has not kept pace with the growth and shows little sign of doing so. In everyday life these things are getting worse and the sheer pressure of numbers is choking them. Even here in the affluent south I can't drive around with the slightest certainty about how long it's going to take and without shaking my car to bits as I clatter into potholes.

I think we'd all agree that it is traffic plus weather that causes potholes. And I think none of us would argue that the potholes we have were caused by cars driven by immigrants, they would have happened anyway. But they remain unrepaired because we're not funding our infrastructure adequately. That's because we don't have enough employees paying income tax at a high enough rate.

The best way to get more taxpayers quickly is to import them. After that to raise them from birth. The immigrant communities are doing more than their fair share here.

In order to get more employees who are earning enough to pay income tax we have to incentivise the private sector and fund the public sector to take people onto the payroll.

In order to get more tax into the infrastructure, we just have to have a higher rate of income tax.