Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

The purpose of the ESCC was always only a precursor to wider economic union, which has always only been a precursor to political unification.

A by-product of this would be the loss of national sovereignties such that no government would be able to declare war on another, since only one government would exist.

I suppose a good way to avoid war is to surrender before it can start.

Why attack Europe when one can happily trade with it?

Why tangle with one country when you can rub up against 28-1?

 

[tomorton]

Attila beat me to it but the EU is a direct descendant of the European Coal and Steel Community established in 1951 (which incidentally was the same year that SHAPE was set up in Paris to counter the Russky threat) it was then incorporated in / became the EEC in 1967. All good capitalism

The EU has turned into a very different beast

No, this is a myth promoted by UK politicians of all colours. The United States of Europe has been a leftist Franco-German-led political initiative since the 1830's. The EEC, EC were and the EU is anti-capitalistic. It is a gigantic managed economy along Soviet lines, with its aim not being prosperity for its population but political unification of all its populations under a single government. It is a mammoth trade tariff zone whose objective is one state.

The EU is not either an accidental or inevitable development from the ECSC as a reaction to WW2. It is a much older and deeper scheme.

 

[counter_violent]

Why attack Europe when one can happily trade with it?

Why tangle with one country when you can rub up against 28-1?

Why be restricted to 28 when the whole world is open for trade?

If that's your best argument, it's time to give up.:clap:

 

[barjon]

Because Split', unlike the 'metropolitan elite' in Brussels, Boris & Co are democratically elected, accountable and can (and often are) removed when they **** up. This pretty much ensures they more than give a damn about what we want. And when they try and take us for granted - the electorate have a way of reminding them who's really the boss. Ask Mrs. May - she's just learnt this very lesson the hard way.
Tim.

Who is this "we" you keep going on about, Tim. You and me? Well I don't know about you but the best I've had is living with what's been imposed on me, sometimes happily, sometimes not. Maybe our respective communities? Nah, they could both vote 100% green to no avail.

Oh, I get it, the "we" is just over half the number of people that can be arsed enough to vote.

 

[Atilla]

Why be restricted to 28 when the whole world is open for trade?

If that's your best argument, it's time to give up.:clap:

No body is stopping you from trading with the rest of the World though are they?

Why have umpteen trade agreements when you can have one.


You saying all those EU countries only trade with each other?


FGSake read back the tosh your are scribbling.


You must be a real expert I guess.

 

[cantagril]

No, this is a myth promoted by UK politicians of all colours. The United States of Europe has been a leftist Franco-German-led political initiative since the 1830's. The EEC, EC were and the EU is anti-capitalistic. It is a gigantic managed economy along Soviet lines, with its aim not being prosperity for its population but political unification of all its populations under a single government. It is a mammoth trade tariff zone whose objective is one state.

The EU is not either an accidental or inevitable development from the ECSC as a reaction to WW2. It is a much older and deeper scheme.

Interesting viewpoint. Whilst I would agree that a number of the european revolutionary movements included the idea of an international "community" I don't believe this was properly formulated before the likes of the League of Nations and Coudenhove-Kalergi and his European Union idea before WW2. Interestingly he published his book Europa Erwacht! just as the Nazis were getting into their stride, which as we know, led to a hiatus in the apparently Soviet inspired unification process and search for an appropriate endlösung.

 

[counter_violent]

No body is stopping you from trading with the rest of the World though are they?

Why have umpteen trade agreements when you can have one.


You saying all those EU countries only trade with each other?


FGSake read back the tosh your are scribbling.


You must be a real expert I guess.

Just can't deal with the facts.

Uk trade with EU member countries has been in decline for yrs. All of this has been demonstrated previously, facts and figures are available.

Now we have this from your new hero Macron.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ade-reform-council-summit-china-steel-imports


It's not me who needs to explain myself. You are so out of touch with reality, it's laughable.

 

[cantagril]

FGSake read back the tosh your are scribbling.

I'm concerned for your blood pressure Attila. It's obvious that your Tosh sensor needs recalibration sharpish otherwise you'll do yourself a mischief.

 

[dbphoenix]

That's a triumph for leftist propaganda.

Depends to a large extent on how old one is and whether he has read history or is remembering it.

 

[timsk]

Who is this "we" you keep going on about, Tim. You and me? Well I don't know about you but the best I've had is living with what's been imposed on me, sometimes happily, sometimes not.

Well Jon, that's democracy for you. Far from perfect I agree. But it's a whole lot better than any alternative that I'm aware of.

Look at it this way. You have an issue for which you are trying to garner support and are wondering whether to go to your parish council, county council or to your MP. Which is easiest? Which is most likely to give you the time of day and which which will be the most expedient? Now, I accept there will be certain circumstances where this isn't the case but, nonetheless, would you not agree that in the majority of cases the ripple effect is the norm and that most people in most situations will do better to start with their parish council, then go to their district council and lastly to their MP? Now, add in some faceless bureaucrat in the EU who hasn't been elected, isn't accountable and can't be removed. Do you honestly believe this EU official or their department is more likely to listen to you than the other three?
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Well Jon, that's democracy for you. Far from perfect I agree. But it's a whole lot better than any alternative that I'm aware of.

Look at it this way. You have an issue for which you are trying to garner support and are wondering whether to go to your parish council, county council or to your MP. Which is easiest? Which is most likely to give you the time of day and which which will be the most expedient? Now, I accept there will be certain circumstances where this isn't the case but, nonetheless, would you not agree that in the majority of cases the ripple effect is the norm and that most people in most situations will do better to start with their parish council, then go to their district council and lastly to their MP? Now, add in some faceless bureaucrat in the EU who hasn't been elected, isn't accountable and can't be removed. Do you honestly believe this EU official or their department is more likely to listen to you than the other three?
Tim.

All of them have turned avoidance to engage into an art form.

A very recent example being the tower block fire in London.
The community had to organise and self support in the absence of the Council who should have come to their rescue.
Then we had the Council leader on telly waffling on about the difficulties of coordinating the response. He has since resigned and good riddance say I.

The correct response should have been to get there in person, roll your sleeves up, set up a coordination centre and deal with the situation head on.

 

[Atilla]

Just can't deal with the facts.

What are the facts about UK trade with rest of the world? Why can't UK increase trade with rest of world now? What trade agreements is the EU stopping you from conducting?

Uk trade with EU member countries has been in decline for yrs. All of this has been demonstrated previously, facts and figures are available.

How does this stop you from trading with rest of the World?

Now we have this from your new hero Macron.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ade-reform-council-summit-china-steel-imports


It's not me who needs to explain myself. You are so out of touch with reality, it's laughable.

Stick to facts indeed.

Let me guess your next post... what plans do the LibDems have?


You clown. Keep taking the pills.

 

[tomorton]

Depends to a large extent on how old one is and whether he has read history or is remembering it.

We will find out our new history in due course.

By leaving the EU we suffer short-term distracted government and possible short-term hardship, while we gain sovereignty and hopefully longer-term prosperity.

France loses a potential ally against German political domination in Europe. By the same token Germany gains the potential to politically dominate the EU.

So, while we're outside the EU, its hard to see France agreeing to coalesce into the US of E. But as a non-member, we lose weight with the other member states and in the end France might be economically cornered into it, especially as the united Europe movement and the left have strong support there.

At which point, we become an island state off the coast of a global power, with another friendly but rather distant domineering global power across the Atlantic. Maybe a bit like Cuba. And we know how well that set-up worked out for them.

 

[dbphoenix]

You have this thing about the "left" that colors your perceptions. Germany dominates the EU not because of some plot or other but because it has its act more together than any other EU member. "Sovereignty" is not an absolute good. And arrogance serves no useful purpose.

As for the US being a domineering global power, I wouldn't take that to the bank.

 

[cantagril]

You have this thing about the "left" that colors your perceptions. Germany dominates the EU not because of some plot or other but because it has its act more together than any other EU member. "Sovereignty" is not an absolute good. And arrogance serves no useful purpose.

As for the US being a domineering global power, I wouldn't take that to the bank.

Dominating, no. Domineering, pretty much.

 

[barjon]

Well Jon, that's democracy for you. Far from perfect I agree. But it's a whole lot better than any alternative that I'm aware of.

Look at it this way. You have an issue for which you are trying to garner support and are wondering whether to go to your parish council, county council or to your MP. Which is easiest? Which is most likely to give you the time of day and which which will be the most expedient? Now, I accept there will be certain circumstances where this isn't the case but, nonetheless, would you not agree that in the majority of cases the ripple effect is the norm and that most people in most situations will do better to start with their parish council, then go to their district council and lastly to their MP? Now, add in some faceless bureaucrat in the EU who hasn't been elected, isn't accountable and can't be removed. Do you honestly believe this EU official or their department is more likely to listen to you than the other three?
Tim.

Depends whether you are concerned about your park bench or unfair trade competition from outside EU.

You keep going on about these faceless bureaucrats in the EU who are no more unelected, unaccountable and difficult to remove than civil servants here. They no longer have the sort of power they did in the early days and all the policy decisions they put forward have to be ratified by the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers - bodies in which members have been elected, are accountable and can be removed.

Of course there's a lot that requires a fundamental shake up but the basic concept of bringing countries together under broadly common laws, common (in theory) economic frameworks, common citizens/workers rights and open across national boundary trade seems to me sound, albeit horribly cumbersome to manage.

 

[tomorton]

You have this thing about the "left" that colors your perceptions. Germany dominates the EU not because of some plot or other but because it has its act more together than any other EU member. "Sovereignty" is not an absolute good. And arrogance serves no useful purpose.

As for the US being a domineering global power, I wouldn't take that to the bank.

Yes, I do see leftist ideas as the greatest potential loss of liberty to pursue personal happiness and prosperity that western individuals face.

Germany is bigger than the other European states. It has never had a foreign policy in Europe which did not include expansion of its continental territory and/or influence. In this light, WW2 was not an aberration, it was another chapter of the same book.

If by sovereignty we mean freedom of self-determination, for any nation, that is all and everything.

You're a US citizen - why am I having to tell you these things about liberty?

Good luck convincing the rest of the world that the US is NOT a domineering power. Should be quite a laugh!

 

[dbphoenix]

"Leftist ideas" has no meaning.

It's not about left and right; it's about power and weakness. "Sovereignty" is just another term for dreams of days gone by.

 

[tomorton]

"Leftist ideas" has no meaning.

It's not about left and right; it's about power and weakness. "Sovereignty" is just another term for dreams of days gone by.

Leftist ideas means the spectrum from socialism to communism.

Let's see how you view sovereignty if US laws were going to be made in Brussels. Or even better, Mexico City.

I seem to recall it was a little dispute over sovereignty that gave birth to your entire country so I know you can't be serious. We are having a good laugh aren't we?

 

[dbphoenix]

As I said, it's not about left and right or sovereignty. It's about power and weakness.

Divide and conquer. A strategem that's been around for millennia. The GOP in America has been and is doing quite nicely with it, and the strategem is working nicely in the UK as well. People argue about trivia as if any of it really matters.