100% and all that.............

[Prawnsandwich]

nobody has asked you because they are so caught up in finding their own success that they are blinded by gems such as your outlined method. perhaps i am biased as i trade the same way but it works and there is no debating it. I think the life cycle of a retail trader has to do a 360 turn. well for me it was anyway, my cycle went something like this

1) start with the basics (great start) but inexperience lead to failure
2) i need more information (the hunt for the super hero indicator) Things seem more clear now, but maybe some more info will do.
3)charts are cluttered with flashing lights and super hero indicators everywhere. **** i am still not winning. what's going on
4)the hunt for the problem, it must be time frames the 5 minute chart isn't working for me, ill start with the higher and line them up with a smaller one for a winning combo.. failure again
5) nimble is the game, perhaps if i shot in and out without anyone knowing ill start finding success... account = death by 1000 cuts
6)hunt for a mentor.. if i cant do it ill find someone to teach me.. offload thousand to the mentor , he is very happy.. months later still losing.
7)mentor no good, need to find a new mentor.. same result
8)mentor no good, need to find a new mentor, same result
9)search for successful traders, find some nugget threads. hmmm, the collective history is starting to fall in place, failure (ongoing but pace slowing)
10)back to basics, single time frame, single currency pair being watched... still losing but a little less
11)must be over trading, move up to daily time frame, sit on hands for days to weeks before trading, patience being learned although there were moments of stupidity that lead to failure. 2 years later patience not a problem any more, failure halts and begins to oscillate around break even.
12) the aha moment, learning to focus on the most obvious areas that everyone can see. aligning all skills learned (countless screen time and exhausting failure) account begins to grow.
13)confidence increases, overconfidence settles in (something new that i haven't experienced before) losing streak hits with a bang,i thought i was king of the markets, humbled as a result
14)everyday becomes a process, key lessons keep me on the right side. trading account growing. consistency settling in.
15)trading seems simple, how could i have taken so long to learn. account growing and future looking bright..

back to your post and the topic at hand.. i truly believe that in order to become a good trader, you have to go through the cycle. 90+% fail in this game but if you have half a brain and can get up after being knocked down countless times you learn how to do it.
when i was a young lad i couldn't ride a bike, my dad had to put those little wheels on either side to support me. when he eventually took them off it took me a while and a couple of falls but i eventually learned how to do it.

perhaps i should have stood aside with 4x's thread and let the cycle of lessons proceed for learning traders. although,i would like to think that if i was still trying to get consistent that someone would have done what i did and derailed the ego maniac .

There is definitely a learning process to go through...and all successful traders have gone through that personal voyage, as you have succinctly summarized above..

.... but there is also a lot of wasted time for the typical retail trader...from personal experience I definitely could have cut down my own lead in period to profitability if I had been pointed in a better direction at various stages early on in the process....

 

[forker]

There is definitely a learning process to go through...and all successful traders have gone through that personal voyage, as you have succinctly summarized above..

.... but there is also a lot of wasted time for the typical retail trader...from personal experience I definitely could have cut down my own lead in period to profitability if I had been pointed in a better direction at various stages early on in the process....

i totally agree, i am in my 8th year now and relative to my journey i have only been consistent for around 19 months. i would have given my left testicle to have known 8 years ago what i know now. perhaps ill be a better trader for it, perhaps not.. i guess ill never know

 

[Prawnsandwich]

i totally agree, i am in my 8th year now and relative to my journey i have only been consistent for around 19 months. i would have given my left testicle to have known 8 years ago what i know now. perhaps ill be a better trader for it, perhaps not.. i guess ill never know

Not saying it relates to yourself or myself, but I'm sure that in the back of some profitable traders heads, part of the thought process when it comes to newbies is - f*ck em, it took me x no. of years, blood sweat and tears, why should it be given to them on a plate. And there's probably some merit in this ....

 

[forker]

Not saying it relates to yourself or myself, but I'm sure that in the back of some profitable traders heads, part of the thought process when it comes to newbies is - f*ck em, it took me x no. of years, blood sweat and tears, why should it be given to them on a plate. And there's probably some merit in this ....

i think the naivety of new traders is their failure. they simply don't know any better. when i think of it i came across gems while i was learning and i just slugged it off because it didnt fit my current stance. a part of me does think f'em, but another part of me knows that even if i try help them it is only them and through their experience can they be helped. but you do have a point and there are tons of them out there that hate new traders and completely slag them off as though it is an irritation.

if i met fx bandit 8 years ago and he gave me his method on a plate, i am certain i would have failed miserably at it.. perhaps we should have an experiment..

 

[FX Bandit]

nobody has asked you because they are so caught up in finding their own success that they are blinded by gems such as your outlined method. perhaps i am biased as i trade the same way but it works and there is no debating it. I think the life cycle of a retail trader has to do a 360 turn. well for me it was anyway, my cycle went something like this...

Yeah I recognise the journey. I didn't make all the stops you did (but I did make some others of my own).

 

[Prawnsandwich]

i think the naivety of new traders is their failure. they simply don't know any better. when i think of it i came across gems while i was learning and i just slugged it off because it didnt fit my current stance. a part of me does think f'em, but another part of me knows that even if i try help them it is only them and through their experience can they be helped. but you do have a point and there are tons of them out there that hate new traders and completely slag them off as though it is an irritation.

if i met fx bandit 8 years ago and he gave me his method on a plate, i am certain i would have failed miserably at it.. perhaps we should have an experiment..

There's no dispute that there is a learning experience, that includes failure, reassessment and adjustment, and that a trader needs to serve time undertaking this process....that you cant just start off with a method and hey presto you're making money.

...but there is definitely a lot of time wasted farting around in the early stages, which could be reduced significantly with some good direction...

By the way, FXB did set out some excellent points in relation to trading in general, but there wasn't much detail in relation to methodology..

 

[FX Bandit]

but another part of me knows that even if i try help them it is only them and through their experience can they be helped. .

That's all there is to it really. You've got to walk the road yourself. It's long, it's tough, and there's no guarantee you'll ever get to the end of it. It's not so much what you do, not really, it's the process of doing it.

You know that bit in Rocky Balboa (Black Swan has it as his signature)? That's advice that will beat anything you'll read on a trading forum:

Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!

Now if you know what you're worth than go out and get what you're worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hits, and not pointing fingers sayin' you ain't what you wanna be because of him or her or anybody!

 

[FX Bandit]

By the way, FXB did set out some excellent points in relation to trading in general, but there wasn't much detail in relation to methodology..

OK, a simple method for newbies to try. Bearing in mind that 95% is down to the trader and not the method, how does this sound?

1. Trade ONLY at significant areas. Examples are price pivots (flips between support and resistance), big round numbers and smaller round numbers (on most forex pairs, for example, every 500 and 100 pips respectively). There are plenty of other significant areas, but start with these as they apply to almost any market. Make adjustments for the market you're trading.

Only trade AWAY from these areas, so that they stand behind your trade and not in front.

2. Trade ONLY when you have a good signal to do so. Start with pin bars (hammers or whatever you want to call them) and outside (engulfing etc) bars. Remember that the bar / candle is not significant - what matters is the price behaviour that they represent. There are lots of good signals but again those two are simple and effective if used correctly (ie not blindly but in conjunction with supporting factors).

3. If you have 1 and 2, look at the overall situation. For example, does your trade have room to move? What if there is an area of support right above your entry and you're going long, what might happen? That support was broken to bring price down to where you're entering. The only thing that can break support is selling. Do you want to go long straight into an area where the last time price was there selling overwhelmed buying?

4. Protect your capital. When price runs into trouble at a logical area (see 3), do something. Reduce or eliminate your risk by moving your stop up to a logical point or even to break even.

5. Manage your trade sensibly. Set profit targets logically (for example using areas of support and resistance, round numbers etc). If you want to trail out, trail out logically (for example, moving your stop up under pull backs to lock in profit while still giving the trade scope to go).

6. Research your market. For example, D Toast likes to trade index futures - is there any validity in using DOM data? How about floor trader pivots (daily pivot, s1, r1 etc)? Investigate and find out. Observe different markets and see what other things tend to work on them.

What do you think Prawn? It's not the Holy Grail, but will that do for starters?

 

[Prawnsandwich]

OK, a simple method for newbies to try. Bearing in mind that 95% is down to the trader and not the method, how does this sound?

1. Trade ONLY at significant areas. Examples are price pivots (flips between support and resistance), big round numbers and smaller round numbers (on most forex pairs, for example, every 500 and 100 pips respectively). There are plenty of other significant areas, but start with these as they apply to almost any market. Make adjustments for the market you're trading.

Only trade AWAY from these areas, so that they stand behind your trade and not in front.

2. Trade ONLY when you have a good signal to do so. Start with pin bars (hammers or whatever you want to call them) and outside (engulfing etc) bars. Remember that the bar / candle is not significant - what matters is the price behaviour that they represent. There are lots of good signals but again those two are simple and effective if used correctly (ie not blindly but in conjunction with supporting factors).

3. If you have 1 and 2, look at the overall situation. For example, does your trade have room to move? What if there is an area of support right above your entry and you're going long, what might happen? That support was broken to bring price down to where you're entering. The only thing that can break support is selling. Do you want to go long straight into an area where the last time price was there selling overwhelmed buying?

4. Protect your capital. When price runs into trouble at a logical area (see 3), do something. Reduce or eliminate your risk by moving your stop up to a logical point or even to break even.

5. Manage your trade sensibly. Set profit targets logically (for example using areas of support and resistance, round numbers etc). If you want to trail out, trail out logically (for example, moving your stop up under pull backs to lock in profit while still giving the trade scope to go).

6. Research your market. For example, D Toast likes to trade index futures - is there any validity in using DOM data? How about floor trader pivots (daily pivot, s1, r1 etc)? Investigate and find out. Observe different markets and see what other things tend to work on them.

What do you think Prawn? It's not the Holy Grail, but will that do for starters?

All fairly standard trading using PA and S/ R....where does order flow come into this..

Any reason for continuously mentioning D Toast ?

 

[FX Bandit]

All fairly standard trading using PA and S/ R....where does order flow come into this..

Any reason for continuously mentioning D Toast ?

Never mind whether it's standard or not, is that a good, practical starting point for a noob?

I'm not getting into the order flow thing, there was enough about that recently, and I think most people were arguing about different things. This approach gives you a better chance of being on the right side of the order flow.

Sorry - I've just noticed that he takes a slightly different approach using something that most people don't talk about. I won't mention him again. In fact, I'll put him on ignore .

 

[Prawnsandwich]

Never mind whether it's standard or not, is that a good, practical starting point for a noob?

I'm not getting into the order flow thing, there was enough about that recently, and I think most people were arguing about different things. This approach gives you a better chance of being on the right side of the order flow.

Sorry - I've just noticed that he takes a slightly different approach using something that most people don't talk about. I won't mention him again. In fact, I'll put him on ignore .

Its definitely good bread and butter stuff for noobs...thats what I was alluding to in my earlier posts...a little good direction could save a lot of wasted effort....

As regards DT, I was just getting a little nervous that the forum mightn't be big enough for both Burt and Dirty Harry... :cheesy:

 

[FX Bandit]

Its definitely good bread and butter stuff for noobs...thats what I was alluding to in my earlier posts...a little good direction could save a lot of wasted effort....

As regards DT, I was just getting a little nervous that the forum mightn't be big enough for both Burt and Dirty Harry... :cheesy:

LOL you could have a point there . I'm going to ask that punk if he feels lucky .

So back to method, if people started with that (just as an example), and spent their time studying their charts and practising, I honestly do think they would give themselves a much greater chance of success. They might also learn to try to see the market for what it is and even begin to understand why price does what it does.

If not, well there's always the system hawkers. Maybe they'll sell the keys to the mansion for 150 quid.

 

[HarryMinot]

Fair comment. I thought I had a couple of times with things like this, which I don't think is a bad contribution:



I'm happy to expand on this, in fact I'm happy to share my entire method. But very few people seem to be interested in that kind of trading. Most people want the equivalent of tips, or a ready made system and all that garbage.

Most traders here will fail because they refuse to recognise that trading is like anything else you try to do. It takes learning, hard work and practice. My method works for me because I've put in the effort and protected my capital whilst I learnt how to trade.

In fact, scratch that bit about "most traders fail because...". Most traders fail because they're f***ing lazy.

Your sage advice reminded me of another excellent posting here from long, long ago. It bears repetition. I hope the original author would not object.

Originally Posted by Aleph Sigma Chi

In my early days as a trader I was exceptionally lucky to have a mentor. A man of senior years, kind manner and with the sharpness of wit and presence of mind only a veteran trader has. “Trading.” He said. “In no other field of human endeavor of which I have experience do so many enter with expectations of achieving immediate and overwhelming success, but with no intention, desire or expectation of expending the tremendous effort necessary in acquiring the appropriate level of skill, knowledge and experience required to ensure that success. And while initial underestimation of the amount of effort required can be forgiven, what stuns me still, is when they are given guidance from those who know just how much is required, they still believe they can do it without. Why is that?”

I know quite a few traders. That is, a few who have been trading a significant length of time and are consistently successful. I have also known a far higher number of ‘bright stars’ who burst upon the trading firmament, only to be engulfed by their own incandescence a short while after reaching their zenith.

Trading is not a get rich quick endeavor. Or if it is for you, the probability of you keeping your new found wealth over any usefully appreciable amount of time is very low. If you’re in that happy and dangerous situation - stop now and do something else! Anything else.

The only successful traders are those who have been doing it for a long while and they are successful because they have been doing it a long while. Circular? Yes. Helpful? Not at first glance. If you’re looking to find the Holy Grail you should switch off at this point.

For those who want to learn, they need to listen. And listen in a very different way to that which they are used to.

In the same way the human ear must physically detect acoustic vibrations to hear sounds, so must the trader train him or herself to detect information from across all the physical senses and from the supra-physical senses too.

Some will call it “traders’ intuition”, others “being in sync with the market”. But it goes much further than that. You must develop skills in order to develop skills. Do you understand this? The skills you must develop in order to develop the skills you need for trading successfully are focus, concentration, awareness and absolute and total commitment. To understand the difference between awareness and perception. And to train yourself to delay the transition of one into the other. This is just the start. If I were to tell you, honestly and simply, the process you will have to go through, the effort, the hours, the physical and mental strain and the contortions of mind you will need to perform – you would either not believe me or if you did, would choose not to do it. Who in their right mind would? But for those few who have no choice, who are burning with the passion to trade, the absolute need to trade, they will willingly follow and inwardly recognize and comprehend that what I am saying is true. Because they know it can’t be that easy. Or every fool and his dog would be doing it. These are the sensible ones. The ones that can learn.

This didn’t work for me. I didn’t want to go through all that hassle. I just wanted to trade. And quite frankly, I didn’t need to go through all that. Why? Because I could do it quicker, easier and make more money more quickly. Because I was special. Above average.

Years later and after serious initial capital losses, I realized I was the successful trader I had started out wanting to be. Through my own route. Ending up at that same destination my mentor had tried so hard to tell me about. I had learned my way. The hard way. The expensive way. I attempted to trade before I developed the characteristics of a successful trader. The wrong way round. The way most would-be traders do it. And he was right. If I had known just what would be involved I would never have undertaken the journey.

Has this put you off? Good. Because if my just telling you this can do it, you would never have lasted the journey anyway. I've saved you time, money and torment.

If however, you have no choice in the matter, you're probably made of trader stuff. Not only will you learn to trade, you will have had to develop skills that will have a value to you far greater than mere trading profits.

 

[Splitlink]

Most systems fail because, at the end of the day, you must be your own man. If you win at trading it will be on your own merits.

I have never gone so far as to buy a system but have read many books, which is another way of doing the say thing, I suppose. The opinions of others can be excellent, I am not criticising every system devised but, how many of us do, exactly, the same thing as the author? All of us are different and that difference will make or break us. Sometimes, we believe that we are doing the same thing, because the difference is so subtle and that makes us frustrated.

There are excellent threads on here and Forex Factory that can be read. I can promise you that they will never be followed exactly, otherwise we would all be rich, but read them for the ideas that they can give and do not expect more. The "more" has to come from you.

 

[profit13]

great discussion...

Thanks!