ZuluTrade

[tar]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

You're right. I just spoke to them. More pips is better on the same MaxDD. I guess duping is good to improve ranking.

If the DD was 300 pips for the 20 trades
you: at 16:22:46
and 15 pips for the 1 trade
you: at 16:22:48
whats better now?
you: at 16:23:21
if the DD is 100% on both of them
Jorge: at 16:24:31
The one with the more pips

It's not obvious when you look check trader's performance but according to what that Zulu guy just said it is.

I think the most obvious reason why this isn't true, is because of kama and savedfx. Kama is savedfx, but kama's rank is higher than savedfx. Savedfx just does the same trades but more duplicates, and actually has a better average pips per trade. So duplicating has to be bad.

Please explain that tar?

First of all i don't think their ranking algo is reliable , many have questioned their ranking system , that being said they have many factors in the secret formula like latest profits 6 M and 12 M not sure if 3 M is included , number of profitable months : "consistency" , max DD in % , Max DD in pips , 3 M DD ... etc , so if we don't have the full formula how are we going to calculate the rankings , but as a rule of thumb more consistent profits "pips" with a competitive max DD ( in pips and % ) means higher rankings , after all the business is about making profits , and they wouldn't mind if you accomplished that with 30 open positions cuz that mean more commissions which is the core of their business .
Re Kama and Saved FX : Kama has 725 pips Max DD and Saved FX 1400 pips . But ofcourse duplicating is bad cuz it will effect your Max DD which is important in the ranking formula , you need a balance more pips and less DD .

 

[sainthake]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

All this is pretty obvious to begin with, the only thing we are bickering over is what is the most efficient and optimized strategy that will dominate the ladder.

I like this, perhaps I will start a new account on Zulu once I have plateaued on this current account.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

You're right. I just spoke to them. More pips is better on the same MaxDD. I guess duping is good to improve ranking.

If the DD was 300 pips for the 20 trades
you: at 16:22:46
and 15 pips for the 1 trade
you: at 16:22:48
whats better now?
you: at 16:23:21
if the DD is 100% on both of them
Jorge: at 16:24:31
The one with the more pips

It's not obvious when you look check trader's performance but according to what that Zulu guy just said it is.

I think the most obvious reason why this isn't true, is because of kama and savedfx. Kama is savedfx, but kama's rank is higher than savedfx. Savedfx just does the same trades but more duplicates, and actually has a better average pips per trade. So duplicating has to be bad.

Kama 14 pips per trade, 94% win ratio, 14% Max DD
SavedFX 17 pips per trade, 97% win ratio, 13% max DD
Kama has a better ROI%. These two traders are exactly the same, so given that why is Kama outperforming savedfx. The conclusion has to be that duplicating doesn't increase ranking, or that it does and doesn't at the same time. Because the negative effects of duplicating out weigh the positives.

Please explain that tar?

I think the answer lies in the fact that saved has been going for 40 weeks which should really count in his favour but the roi is 1/2 that of kama based on 100/1 leverage. If The roi was the same im sure saved would be further ahead.
Hes been going for 40 weeks and no bust as yet,its impressive,but twice in the last few weeks a further rise of 50 pips or so against him would have put him in serious trouble. As far as I can tell zulu rate strongly on dd and then roi. Lets be honest,it would be hard to come up with a perfect scoring system to cover so many variables.Ones on other sites are far worse than zulu

 

[brettus]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

I think the answer lies in the fact that saved has been going for 40 weeks which should really count in his favour but the roi is 1/2 that of kama based on 100/1 leverage. If The roi was the same im sure saved would be further ahead.
Hes been going for 40 weeks and no bust as yet,its impressive,but twice in the last few weeks a further rise of 50 pips or so against him would have put him in serious trouble. As far as I can tell zulu rate strongly on dd and then roi. Lets be honest,it would be hard to come up with a perfect scoring system to cover so many variables.Ones on other sites are far worse than zulu

Maybe their system is actually very good. They just need to sort out the Max DD and the fact that demo accounts don't get weekend gap slippage. With these large gaps of late. That's the best way to exploit their system, I think.

 

[tar]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

Maybe their system is actually very good. They just need to sort out the Max DD and the fact that demo accounts don't get weekend gap slippage. With these large gaps of late. That's the best way to exploit their system, I think.

Ofcourse you will get weekend gap slippage with Zulu , go ahead and try it .

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

Maybe their system is actually very good. They just need to sort out the Max DD and the fact that demo accounts don't get weekend gap slippage. With these large gaps of late. That's the best way to exploit their system, I think.

how do you work that one out,im sure my demo gets slippage

 

[brettus]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

how do you work that one out,im sure my demo gets slippage

Yea. But I have a follower account and Ive experienced it where it doesn't slip the SP on demo account, but for sure your real trading account gets slipped. I think one one trade the sp got stopped out for 40 points loss, and I got stopped out for over 150. It happened a lot. I have the account to boost ranking btw, just the minimum lot size. I can follow anyone if they want to booost their rank. Everyone is doing it.

Check out Fxturtle-eurusd trades closed 17/03/13 21:00:09. Just an example.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

Yea. But I have a follower account and Ive experienced it where it doesn't slip the SP on demo account, but for sure your real trading account gets slipped. I think one one trade the sp got stopped out for 40 points loss, and I got stopped out for over 150. It happened a lot. I have the account to boost ranking btw, just the minimum lot size. I can follow anyone if they want to booost their rank. Everyone is doing it.

thanks but boosting rankings is a temporary thing. The signals need to srvive on their own

 

[brettus]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

thanks but boosting rankings is a temporary thing. The signals need to srvive on their own

Yea its pointless. Ill probably close it

 

[robbert]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

how do you work that one out,im sure my demo gets slippage

its impossible to get slippage - as slippage is a brokers attribute....how can you get slippage on a non-broker's account
i really am curious why you all are so much interested in a discussing the ranking and trying to find flaws into the system....Have you had live accounts with etoro? ayondo? tradency? to follow their traders. Disaster!!!big time. I've lost with all of them. I mean zulutrade might not be perfect, but at least is much more better than the others and followers actually win and it is evolving to give the best trading experience for the followers. it is obvious from the way all the platforms operates - and the ranking, and the DD, and the commissions, all...

 

[jungles]

It’s interesting to watch follower comments at zulu. If the provider is in the red they often get a bashing. If in the green they are treated like kings. In general, there’s no regard for the means by which profit was achieved, as long as it was achieved. A risk – reward of 20 – 1 and simultaneously holding multiple random positions, is ignored.

Most of the followers don’t seem to understand what a RR of 20 – 1 means for their account at some time in the future. And frankly, would they care if they did? I doubt it. As long as we are green today, the provider is king!

on a different topic:
Who does zulu favour? I know we see followers profits listed at the site. But these can often be deceptive as we do not see the total P/L for all accounts. It would be interesting to see the total P/L for followers across a 12 mth, 2 yr and 3 yr period.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

its impossible to get slippage - as slippage is a brokers attribute....how can you get slippage on a non-broker's account
i really am curious why you all are so much interested in a discussing the ranking and trying to find flaws into the system....Have you had live accounts with etoro? ayondo? tradency? to follow their traders. Disaster!!!big time. I've lost with all of them. I mean zulutrade might not be perfect, but at least is much more better than the others and followers actually win and it is evolving to give the best trading experience for the followers. it is obvious from the way all the platforms operates - and the ranking, and the DD, and the commissions, all...

Robert I agree,zulus ranking is far better than most. We were just discussing and gossiping

 

[jungles]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

i would rather see ranking based on %, (and that's real %, not zulu ROI calc) amongst other variables. But it seems pips are more important at zulu.

the table shows a week in an anonymous traders journey

+3% meets prop trader industry standards (100% av. yr)

at zulu +13 pips is laughable

Robert I agree,zulus ranking is far better than most.

 

[The Artist]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

All this is pretty obvious to begin with, the only thing we are bickering over is what is the most efficient and optimized strategy that will dominate the ladder.

I like this, perhaps I will start a new account on Zulu once I have plateaued on this current account.

I agree that the ranking algorithm is difficult to clearly make out from simple observation. I have tried to isolate groups of providers with certain identical parameters to find out about weight but it's a riddle.

Two things for sure though:
- your ranking will invariably increase to a new high if your equity curve reaches a new daily high. So high win% providers who take 10/15 pips per trade every day regardless of the risk can reach the top 100 quite quickly by averaging up/down and hope they don't get caught up in a very strong trend.
- unrealised P/L is not as important as closed P/L. That was made obvious with Forex Sleep Mode's jump from #16867 to #179 on Dec 16th after he closed 1550 pips worth of EUR/JPY positions even though he had already unrealised profits of more than 1000 pips by the end of the 14th. And then again the jump from #88 to #2 last week when he closed the 1582 pips EUR/JPY even though the day before he had more than 1650 of unrealised pips.
Conversely it means that providers who let unrealised losses run do not suffer in the ratings as much as people who would close the same losing positions, unless it starts hurting their max DD data.

 

[brettus]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

its impossible to get slippage - as slippage is a brokers attribute....how can you get slippage on a non-broker's account

I'm not sure what you're saying exactly? That demo accounts aren't broker accounts. They should have the same rules as a live account though. Like slippage over the weekend. It's pretty straight forward. Your stop sell was at 1.3000 on Friday. The market opens at 1.2900 on Sunday. You get stopped out at 1.2900. That's the kind of slippage I'm talking about. The thing is, with a lot of these demo accounts. The Signal Providers are actually getting their 1.3000 fills, which is making them look a lot better than they actually are. Actually two SP's I followed benefited greatly from these amazing fills. Zulutrade is very good, but it is very flawed. I still think it is a terrible ranking system even if it is better than the rest. How can you get Max DD so wrong for example? Do they know nothing about trading?

 

[jungles]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

yes, hence the commonly inverted RR

the downside, high risk to reward ratio accounts all run out of luck

as another poster stated, the best zulu providers seem to last no more than 18 mths

- unrealised P/L is not as important as closed P/L.
Conversely it means that providers who let unrealised losses run do not suffer in the ratings as much as people who would close the same losing positions, unless it starts hurting their max DD data.

 

[The Artist]

Actually I want to test a couple things with regard to Zulutrade's ranking algorithm.

So I have been developing a strategy this week which should keep max DD and # open trades to a minimum, while trying to make new daily equity highs as often as possible, even though the # of pips will not be big, and neither will the win %. That way I can compare ranking development against high win %, high pips providers.
I will finish it up this weekend and let you know how it is called on Tuesday so those who are curious can also track how the ranking evolves and hopefully better understand how it works.
Perhaps I will start a new thread to focus on that ranking issue in particular in order to keep this one more general, we'll see.

Obviously this is more of a side activity to see how trading on Zulutrade can be optimised so I will only trade €/$ and keep frequency to a reasonable amount as I have my own trading to worry about. But if others want to create high frequency strategies with >10 open trades in several pairs and wide stops to see how that works, that could be interesting too!

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Actually I want to test a couple things with regard to Zulutrade's ranking algorithm.

So I have been developing a strategy this week which should keep max DD and # open trades to a minimum, while trying to make new daily equity highs as often as possible, even though the # of pips will not be big, and neither will the win %. That way I can compare ranking development against high win %, high pips providers.
I will finish it up this weekend and let you know how it is called on Tuesday so those who are curious can also track how the ranking evolves and hopefully better understand how it works.
Perhaps I will start a new thread to focus on that ranking issue in particular in order to keep this one more general, we'll see.

Obviously this is more of a side activity to see how trading on Zulutrade can be optimised so I will only trade €/$ and keep frequency to a reasonable amount as I have my own trading to worry about. But if others want to create high frequency strategies with >10 open trades in several pairs and wide stops to see how that works, that could be interesting too!

good luck i will enjoy watching

 

[Brumby]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

I'm not sure what you're saying exactly? That demo accounts aren't broker accounts. They should have the same rules as a live account though. Like slippage over the weekend. It's pretty straight forward. Your stop sell was at 1.3000 on Friday. The market opens at 1.2900 on Sunday. You get stopped out at 1.2900. That's the kind of slippage I'm talking about. The thing is, with a lot of these demo accounts. The Signal Providers are actually getting their 1.3000 fills, which is making them look a lot better than they actually are. Actually two SP's I followed benefited greatly from these amazing fills.

Although the demo accounts are suppose to mirror the live accounts there are obvious differences especially when an instrument gaps through your stop price. In demo accounts because the fill is artificial, the fill price is your stop price whereares the live accounts will reflect reality. Invariably as you have pointed out, demo account results are artificially inflated.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

Re: My ZuluTrade Adventure

Although the demo accounts are suppose to mirror the live accounts there are obvious differences especially when an instrument gaps through your stop price. In demo accounts because the fill is artificial, the fill price is your stop price whereares the live accounts will reflect reality. Invariably as you have pointed out, demo account results are artificially inflated.

so that would explain why most providers use demo accounts then.Personally i think all providers should use live accounts