That is so. My trading is limited to Footsie shares, where I can see the shares, and their spreads, quickly. I haven't the time or patience to go any farther. It depends on volume, probably, you can get reasonable spreads within the top 350.
I don't think having a go at Newtrader will resolve any issues here, and i have to admit, i personally believe DMA to be the professionals choice, but, just because a person uses DMA doesn't automatically give them professional status. I posted earlier on in this thread, the post was meant tongue in cheek to create reaction.
An adept trader could use either SB or DMA and still make a living out of it.
Strategy wise, in terms of order types, automation and programming, DMA is king and always will be.
SB prices? They are only indicative, and although through competitiveness the prices are becomming more accurate and spreads lower, it still leaves a question mark for me personally.
Just my 2 cents worth.
An adept trader could use either SB or DMA and still make a living out of it.
Strategy wise, in terms of order types, automation and programming, DMA is king and always will be.
SB prices? They are only indicative, and although through competitiveness the prices are becomming more accurate and spreads lower, it still leaves a question mark for me personally.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Crap Buddist
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Thought for the day
This echo's an argument (discussion, to those who are sound of mind) between 2 groups in a class studying medicine n stuff.
Tutor says hands up all those who do not believe in herbal medicines. ya know half the class puts hands up n waves em in the air, with the grace that they just dont care, anyhoo the tutor says...
"ahhh, thats good, now, no matter what you believe if you eat this digitalis you will die."
Now which is which between SB & DMA who is the herbal medicine & who the synthetic drug. Who believes in DMA & who SB, maybe if you still cant trade you'll die anyhow :idea:
Bonzer.
This echo's an argument (discussion, to those who are sound of mind) between 2 groups in a class studying medicine n stuff.
Tutor says hands up all those who do not believe in herbal medicines. ya know half the class puts hands up n waves em in the air, with the grace that they just dont care, anyhoo the tutor says...
"ahhh, thats good, now, no matter what you believe if you eat this digitalis you will die."
Now which is which between SB & DMA who is the herbal medicine & who the synthetic drug. Who believes in DMA & who SB, maybe if you still cant trade you'll die anyhow :idea:
Bonzer.
I do not play golf or squash so I suppose I am not a sportsman but I play football and rugby and that makes me a brute. It comes down to a matter of choice and there are many that spread bet that can run rings round those that trade via direct access.
Many of the posts on these boards about spread betting are from those that have had bad experiences brought on by themselves or those looking for something for nothing (ie. the thread about IG Index stealing £5,500 from an account). Quite a lot of the others are by those that do not have an inkling about how the costs of spread betting really work out.
CFDs and spread betting are generally provided by the same firms and the prices/quotes are exactly the same (phone them and ask). Yet you do not have people making disdainful remarks about those that use CFDs. Spread betting in the main is for UK residents due to the current tax laws and CFDs are for those outside the UK who cannot take advantage of the 'tax free' benefits of spread betting.
Many have say that the prices quoted are not transparant or are skewed in the firms' favour. This is absolute nonsense and if they did this, a good trader with any reasonable degree of sense would make bundles of money taking advantage of these anomalies. Prices are always based on the underlying and a firm adds its spread to derive a quote, what is the problemwith this? If you trade shares you will find that it is cheaper to trade through a spread betting firm as opposed to placing a trade through a stockbroker unless the trade is for more thatn £5,000. That is before you take CGT into consideration.
Day traders are gamblers; swing traders are gamblers; anyone holding a position for less than 18 months or so is a gambler (speculator) regardless of the methods or instruments that are used (these are labels applied in the financial industry and have remained the same for decades). There are Professional Money Managers who constantly lose money despite the fact that they manage billions for their clients, yet they appear on television programmes and get interviewed by newspapers and magazines; command seven figure incomes and live like royalty. Then there is that little spread betting 'punter' that is vilified but turns a profit month after month and provides for his needs and some. Please, give it a break.
The claim that no professional, broker or big hitters use spread betting firms is also a nonsense that has been made by those that live in cocoons. How would you describe the Board of Next Plc that put on a trade worth millions with Cantor Index that there shares would exceed 1600p within a few years (trade placed in 2004 or 2005)? What about Michael Ashton who lost millions recently in one of the banks? Why did the city regulator insist that those that build stakes of 3% or more using CFDs/spread bets have to declare these positions?
These firms are constantly called bucket firms by those who make these negative statements but on what criteria? Are Man Financial who are a member of the FTSE 100 a bucket shop; Cantor Index (part of Cantor Fitzgerald); CMC Markets that are valued well in excess of £500 million or indeed IG Index who also have a fairly large market quote? We will ignore the fact that Barlays, Lloyd TSB and others also have spread betting arms in order to muscle in on the market.
Many of the posts on these boards about spread betting are from those that have had bad experiences brought on by themselves or those looking for something for nothing (ie. the thread about IG Index stealing £5,500 from an account). Quite a lot of the others are by those that do not have an inkling about how the costs of spread betting really work out.
CFDs and spread betting are generally provided by the same firms and the prices/quotes are exactly the same (phone them and ask). Yet you do not have people making disdainful remarks about those that use CFDs. Spread betting in the main is for UK residents due to the current tax laws and CFDs are for those outside the UK who cannot take advantage of the 'tax free' benefits of spread betting.
Many have say that the prices quoted are not transparant or are skewed in the firms' favour. This is absolute nonsense and if they did this, a good trader with any reasonable degree of sense would make bundles of money taking advantage of these anomalies. Prices are always based on the underlying and a firm adds its spread to derive a quote, what is the problemwith this? If you trade shares you will find that it is cheaper to trade through a spread betting firm as opposed to placing a trade through a stockbroker unless the trade is for more thatn £5,000. That is before you take CGT into consideration.
Day traders are gamblers; swing traders are gamblers; anyone holding a position for less than 18 months or so is a gambler (speculator) regardless of the methods or instruments that are used (these are labels applied in the financial industry and have remained the same for decades). There are Professional Money Managers who constantly lose money despite the fact that they manage billions for their clients, yet they appear on television programmes and get interviewed by newspapers and magazines; command seven figure incomes and live like royalty. Then there is that little spread betting 'punter' that is vilified but turns a profit month after month and provides for his needs and some. Please, give it a break.
The claim that no professional, broker or big hitters use spread betting firms is also a nonsense that has been made by those that live in cocoons. How would you describe the Board of Next Plc that put on a trade worth millions with Cantor Index that there shares would exceed 1600p within a few years (trade placed in 2004 or 2005)? What about Michael Ashton who lost millions recently in one of the banks? Why did the city regulator insist that those that build stakes of 3% or more using CFDs/spread bets have to declare these positions?
These firms are constantly called bucket firms by those who make these negative statements but on what criteria? Are Man Financial who are a member of the FTSE 100 a bucket shop; Cantor Index (part of Cantor Fitzgerald); CMC Markets that are valued well in excess of £500 million or indeed IG Index who also have a fairly large market quote? We will ignore the fact that Barlays, Lloyd TSB and others also have spread betting arms in order to muscle in on the market.
black bear
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They are not professional
Hi
Simple fact is Sb firms are crooks.
They are the ones who act in an un-professional manner.
They are very good professional crooks I will concede that.
They are suitable I guess for longer timeframe trades and hedges, even than I see no reason to give a crook business so ...........not from me anymore thanks. I ended up ahead after the usual start with them but its not an experience I would like to repeat.
I for one would not like my real Stop with them placed any place close to the actual market Quote because it will be filled in my experience every single time. This leads to a constant game of Cat and mouse which can lead to poor trading habits and discipline issues which you could pay for later on if you progress. At the very least you will have to make an allowance to overcome this when in a trade regardless of time frame traded if you want to maintain normal risk levels imho.
Suitable imho for FUN only (accounts 5K and less)
If you want to learn to trade its cheaper to go DA and papertrade account with your method and improve it until your ready to go live imho. You will not have to re-learn anything and what your seeing is real not some price that can be adjusted in a nano second.
Good post Crap that is correct if you can not trade you will die anyway.
At least going about it in a professional manner with professional tools and execution at your at your disposal your destiny is in your own hands, you can choose to go live on the exact same platform you have been trading on in papertrade mode and there will be no difference what so ever.
If SB and Da are not worlds apart.........................
How come when I take my signal, which I have not changed at all since my move to DA five months ago and I keep very detailed records.
40% more of my trade entries move in my favour the nano second I enter the trade. When I was trading with the SB Firms this was never the case EVER
they sit you wrong side of the trade for as long as they can, in my experience thats a fact. That increases your risk by .........To much imho
Pretty fed up with T2W and same old debates, must be me I guess and time to move on to new pastures.
This will be my last post, thanks to all who have given me help both direct and via their posts and contributions on many threads.
Sorry regards long goodbye many of the issues I had not resolved 6 months ago are fully resolved in my own mind and ............
Just Thanks too all
Move to Da as gone better than I could have hoped for, one large error made which as done no real damage, Silly attempt to be something and trade like something I most certainly am not. Total brain down
Someones signiture reads .....that which does not destroy me makes me stronger, I like that and in my opinion its very true. Have recovered and.........
Maybe I can go a little further
Only thing that remains un resolved and I have decided to leave it that way once and for all ...
Longer timeframe trading, I can not do it and will never feel comfortable doing it, just feels plain wrong to my very core, so F..ck it I will just do what I can do and make the best of it
If you are real serious regards trading Go DA first imho, paper trade it than .........use the Sb firms to your advantage if a longer timeframe player latter.
All the best:clover:
Gone
The END
Hi
Simple fact is Sb firms are crooks.
They are the ones who act in an un-professional manner.
They are very good professional crooks I will concede that.
They are suitable I guess for longer timeframe trades and hedges, even than I see no reason to give a crook business so ...........not from me anymore thanks. I ended up ahead after the usual start with them but its not an experience I would like to repeat.
I for one would not like my real Stop with them placed any place close to the actual market Quote because it will be filled in my experience every single time. This leads to a constant game of Cat and mouse which can lead to poor trading habits and discipline issues which you could pay for later on if you progress. At the very least you will have to make an allowance to overcome this when in a trade regardless of time frame traded if you want to maintain normal risk levels imho.
Suitable imho for FUN only (accounts 5K and less)
If you want to learn to trade its cheaper to go DA and papertrade account with your method and improve it until your ready to go live imho. You will not have to re-learn anything and what your seeing is real not some price that can be adjusted in a nano second.
Good post Crap that is correct if you can not trade you will die anyway.
At least going about it in a professional manner with professional tools and execution at your at your disposal your destiny is in your own hands, you can choose to go live on the exact same platform you have been trading on in papertrade mode and there will be no difference what so ever.
If SB and Da are not worlds apart.........................
How come when I take my signal, which I have not changed at all since my move to DA five months ago and I keep very detailed records.
40% more of my trade entries move in my favour the nano second I enter the trade. When I was trading with the SB Firms this was never the case EVER
they sit you wrong side of the trade for as long as they can, in my experience thats a fact. That increases your risk by .........To much imho Pretty fed up with T2W and same old debates, must be me I guess and time to move on to new pastures.
This will be my last post, thanks to all who have given me help both direct and via their posts and contributions on many threads.
Sorry regards long goodbye
many of the issues I had not resolved 6 months ago are fully resolved in my own mind and ............Just Thanks too all
Move to Da as gone better than I could have hoped for, one large error made which as done no real damage, Silly attempt to be something and trade like something I most certainly am not. Total brain down
Someones signiture reads .....that which does not destroy me makes me stronger, I like that and in my opinion its very true. Have recovered and.........
Maybe I can go a little further
Only thing that remains un resolved and I have decided to leave it that way once and for all ...
Longer timeframe trading, I can not do it and will never feel comfortable doing it, just feels plain wrong to my very core, so F..ck it I will just do what I can do and make the best of it
If you are real serious regards trading Go DA first imho, paper trade it than .........use the Sb firms to your advantage if a longer timeframe player latter.
All the best:clover:
Gone
The END
Last edited:
Crap Buddist
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The same cycle will spin over Andy time and time again, thats life being content with the monotony.
It must be a question of individuals finding their place where they are happy with the same old same old. yah thats it keep changing til it feels right, changing what though, externals/internals ? choices choices....
Good luck chief.
It must be a question of individuals finding their place where they are happy with the same old same old.
yah thats it keep changing til it feels right, changing what though, externals/internals ? choices choices.... Good luck chief.
"Spread betting is not TRADING" ~ But dealing through a DMA is? This is incorrect. Whether using SB or DMA you are performing the same basic function, ie you have taken a view on the future price of a derivative product and opened a position with the intention of realising a profit. In this regard there is no distinction between SB and DMA. The pros and cons of either from an operating point of view are neither here nor there, they both allow us the facility of placing the trade. No amount of definition from wiki, Oxford, Chambers etc will alter this basic fact. If using DMA is 'trading' then it is so for SB.
Re - trading v gambling. Gambling is putting a bet on a horse on the 3.30 at Ascot or taking a seat at Blackjack or betting on Man Utd to beat Chelsea. Once you have placed your wager it is done, it is final, the other side is in control, if your horse stumbles over the first fence or you're dealt a five or Man u turn up with their second side because the first team are down with a virus you cannot change your mind and ask for your money back; the bet stands until the other side concludes. Taking a position on the Footsie or cable whether with SB or DMA you are still in control and able to manage your trade to it's conclusion. If you have this level of control and responsibility for the final outcome this is the furthest thing from gambling.
The relevance of whether a trader is professional or amateur depending on their preference of platform is spurious at best and no doubt perpetrated by those that perhaps fancy themselves with a 'professional' label. If you think it will make you more profitable then what the hell go for it, have it on your calling cards and letterheads. But this will not give you any right to look down on those mere mortals that you regard as amateurs. The only distinction that matters here is whether your trading is profitable or not. My trading is profitable, I do it full time and it is my primary source of income but I couldn't care less about any label.
However it would appear that my income is largely derived from gambling as an amateur. Oh well, long may it continue.
Re - trading v gambling. Gambling is putting a bet on a horse on the 3.30 at Ascot or taking a seat at Blackjack or betting on Man Utd to beat Chelsea. Once you have placed your wager it is done, it is final, the other side is in control, if your horse stumbles over the first fence or you're dealt a five or Man u turn up with their second side because the first team are down with a virus you cannot change your mind and ask for your money back; the bet stands until the other side concludes. Taking a position on the Footsie or cable whether with SB or DMA you are still in control and able to manage your trade to it's conclusion. If you have this level of control and responsibility for the final outcome this is the furthest thing from gambling.
The relevance of whether a trader is professional or amateur depending on their preference of platform is spurious at best and no doubt perpetrated by those that perhaps fancy themselves with a 'professional' label. If you think it will make you more profitable then what the hell go for it, have it on your calling cards and letterheads. But this will not give you any right to look down on those mere mortals that you regard as amateurs. The only distinction that matters here is whether your trading is profitable or not. My trading is profitable, I do it full time and it is my primary source of income but I couldn't care less about any label.
However it would appear that my income is largely derived from gambling as an amateur. Oh well, long may it continue.
mp6140
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Mp -- Wow, Do People Ever Go On !
now that i know what spread betters are, let me explain that ALMOST EVERYONE here in the states uses "brokers" who operate EXACTLY like spread betters. One can choose from $20 USD a point (or pip) down to 0.20 USD a pip from most, and as i said MOST traders at least START with them, and an amazing few go to DIRECT ACCESS, at any point.
our brokers can "fool" with the prices a bit, but they would be crucified if their top exit price was not the same as the price being supplied by the banks, so trading with them or with direct access is "essentially" the same.
I make money using both of them, broker and direct access, and being honest I make more and faster using a broker, as here in the states, a broker allows ANY amount of hedging while you must have a minimum of TWO accounts if you want to hedge the SAME currency!
the direct access can be considered "more" honest, but the absolute reality of the two is that IN REALITY, there is precious little difference --- with brokers or spread betters you pay the price with the spread (you get free charts, a great trading platform and the ability to AUTO TRADE from that spread difference, while with DIRECT ACCESS, you get the trading platform and thats it, requiring you to have a seperate DATA FEED for your EXTERNAL charting system.
So if one LOOKS at EVERYTHING as a package, one recognizes that "brokers" and spread betters just arent that bad a thing, and as living proof of what i state, my month and a half average CORRECT trades, producing (presently) $28 thousand USD in that time period with a BROKER (spread better) was better than 98% correct --- the 2% was a completely stupid accident, where i closed two open trades at a loss of close to $4 thou USD --- fortunately, i simply made back the money !
OK, not trying to brag BUT TO SHOW THAT ONE CAN MAKE VERY DECENT MONEY WITH SPREAD BETTERS, AND I CONSIDER MYSELF A PROFESSIONAL, AND I USE THEM !
perhaps, when your account is over a few million dollars, you might want to get a direct feed from a "particular" bank, and deal against them directly, but that goes even past any definition of "direct access" and is just not needed unless your spread better wont cover a million dollar trade (which most simply wont !)
sometimes direct access, because its rates are higher over where you guys live, is considered "higher class" and therefore brings forth "bragging rights", but the reality of the situation is, at the level most of us trade at, THERE JUST AINT NO DIFFERENCE !
mp
now that i know what spread betters are, let me explain that ALMOST EVERYONE here in the states uses "brokers" who operate EXACTLY like spread betters. One can choose from $20 USD a point (or pip) down to 0.20 USD a pip from most, and as i said MOST traders at least START with them, and an amazing few go to DIRECT ACCESS, at any point.
our brokers can "fool" with the prices a bit, but they would be crucified if their top exit price was not the same as the price being supplied by the banks, so trading with them or with direct access is "essentially" the same.
I make money using both of them, broker and direct access, and being honest I make more and faster using a broker, as here in the states, a broker allows ANY amount of hedging while you must have a minimum of TWO accounts if you want to hedge the SAME currency!
the direct access can be considered "more" honest, but the absolute reality of the two is that IN REALITY, there is precious little difference --- with brokers or spread betters you pay the price with the spread (you get free charts, a great trading platform and the ability to AUTO TRADE from that spread difference, while with DIRECT ACCESS, you get the trading platform and thats it, requiring you to have a seperate DATA FEED for your EXTERNAL charting system.
So if one LOOKS at EVERYTHING as a package, one recognizes that "brokers" and spread betters just arent that bad a thing, and as living proof of what i state, my month and a half average CORRECT trades, producing (presently) $28 thousand USD in that time period with a BROKER (spread better) was better than 98% correct --- the 2% was a completely stupid accident, where i closed two open trades at a loss of close to $4 thou USD --- fortunately, i simply made back the money !
OK, not trying to brag BUT TO SHOW THAT ONE CAN MAKE VERY DECENT MONEY WITH SPREAD BETTERS, AND I CONSIDER MYSELF A PROFESSIONAL, AND I USE THEM !
perhaps, when your account is over a few million dollars, you might want to get a direct feed from a "particular" bank, and deal against them directly, but that goes even past any definition of "direct access" and is just not needed unless your spread better wont cover a million dollar trade (which most simply wont !)
sometimes direct access, because its rates are higher over where you guys live, is considered "higher class" and therefore brings forth "bragging rights", but the reality of the situation is, at the level most of us trade at, THERE JUST AINT NO DIFFERENCE !
mp
Lee Shepherd
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If you live by the law of the land and assuming you do then spreadbetting is gambling.. No if's , no but's. You dont have an INCOME because you gamble. You are a gambler.
Go direct access and you are a trader. Thats the title.
If your not worried about titles then accept you are a gambler if you spreadbet. Therefore you have no income, only winnings for which holds many disadvantages. The great advantage that keeps getting thrown up by U.K citizens is that you dont pay taxes on your winnings.
Go direct access and you are a trader. Thats the title.
If your not worried about titles then accept you are a gambler if you spreadbet. Therefore you have no income, only winnings for which holds many disadvantages. The great advantage that keeps getting thrown up by U.K citizens is that you dont pay taxes on your winnings.
Lee, you need to familiar yourself with the meaning of gambling.
If spreadbetting is gambling then dealing through a DMA is likewise according to your simplistic interpretation.
Your suggestion that my income from trading via SB has disadvantages nearly had me falling off my chair. Let me assure you that the funds I transfer each month from my SB and DMA accounts hold absolutely no disadvantages for me or my family. And your final sentence would suggest that you don't see any advantage in paying zero tax on gains.
The main thing I don't get in the exchanges on this thread is why so many people like yourself are so vociferously anti SB. If it doesn't suit you, fine, move on. Must go now, don't want to be late for my first meeting at gamblers anonymous.
If spreadbetting is gambling then dealing through a DMA is likewise according to your simplistic interpretation.
Your suggestion that my income from trading via SB has disadvantages nearly had me falling off my chair. Let me assure you that the funds I transfer each month from my SB and DMA accounts hold absolutely no disadvantages for me or my family. And your final sentence would suggest that you don't see any advantage in paying zero tax on gains.
The main thing I don't get in the exchanges on this thread is why so many people like yourself are so vociferously anti SB. If it doesn't suit you, fine, move on. Must go now, don't want to be late for my first meeting at gamblers anonymous.
mp6140
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=================================================================
the obvious advantages of NO TAXES on spreadbetting equates to an (approximately) 28% PROFIT if that were true over here in the states, but we have to pay the taxes (although we can write off the losses against the profits)
I shall take a 28% profit, handed to me on a silver platter, with no problem, thank you !
mp
Lee Shepherd
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mp6140
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=====================================================================
GAMMA -- i wont really talk about it OK ??
BUT - - - - -
its my "beer money" account and makes an average of $1000 USD per DAY, for 5 - 6 days a WEEK, and 4.3 weeks per MONTH !
and since i run a "hedge fund" here in the states, what you expect im gonna do while trading ?
LOL
mp
FXSCALPER2
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Threads like this show you who is who really, don't they?
If you buy EURUSD and make 100 pips with some firm that calls itself direct access broker, you are a trader; if you buy EURUSD and make 100 pips on IG index, you are a gambler. Hmm, that is not very easy to understand, is it?
If you buy EURUSD and make 100 pips with some firm that calls itself direct access broker, you are a trader; if you buy EURUSD and make 100 pips on IG index, you are a gambler. Hmm, that is not very easy to understand, is it?
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Lee Shepherd
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But this is it exactly, with IG index you DO NOT buy EUR/$, you simply BET against the price, in many cases they dont even buy it. just simply bet against you with others thats on there books. The bookies always win.
If you trade the markets then you DO BUY the contract EUR/$, spread bet you simply bet against the price, hence GAMBLING.
If you trade the markets then you DO BUY the contract EUR/$, spread bet you simply bet against the price, hence GAMBLING.
MP, glad to see you're a realist, liked your earlier post, spelled a few obvious things out for some people. You're lucky your tax equates to 28%. For me until end of last tax year when I had other income (but few expenses) it would have been 40%. Regards.
mp6140
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is that like when, let us say "a prince of the realm" takes to his life a woman called "prince consort", while we call her a "lady of the nite" (well, i couldnt say the obvious word, could i ?)
guess HOW you define is what actually defines the word
mp
FXSCALPER2
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Well, what does that even mean? All we do is take a view on a pair and go long or short, no?
mp6140
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====================================================
our local sheep herder, also referred to as "president" had lowered the tax rate on cap gains to encourage everyone to trade UP the price of oil (he is a texan, after all) and so we enjoy a lower tax rate right now, but you guys usually have pretty steep tax rates, which is why i would LOVE to just spread bet in england (they wont let us, but russia did allow me to do so)
40% is a REAL killer !
mp
