YM journal

Nothing to see here

Thanks gollum n BB. I deleted the DVD posts to keep things tidy, but have saved the links.

Been distracted last couple of days changing my car so not really been trading, sorry. Broke even over Thu/Fri for what it's worth.

Normal service should be resumed next week. :)
 

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Yawn

+15 from one simple Grail short and a bit of fiddling with Diamonds in case there was a late rally.
 

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Loose molars

+44 from one.

I rarely manage a decent Chartman style 100 EMA entry as I am always worried that once the price has duly broken, tested, and continued past the 100 EMA that the move will soon reverse. Indeed on range days it often does. Between 15:00 and 15:15 we broke yesterday's high "B" (downtrend "A" already having been vanquished) on increasing, healthy volume so I risked a long with a 12 point stop. Worth mentioning also that following yesterday's tedious narrow grind, a breakout today was likely to be valid. Indeed it was. Exited this on the 3 peak ND around 850; also there seemed to be decreasing interest following a volume climax adding weight to the exit.

Managed to avoid a Grail long over lunch (no volume) fortunately. Perhaps there was a clue that we weren't going to retest the highs as the first bounce off the 100 EMA was so weak?

As the price slipped below the 100 EMA was this just being allowed to drift, or perhaps a stop run to gather up a few more contracts from weak holders? Hard to tell but TICK slipping below zero perhaps tipped one off that a reversal might be on the cards, considering it had stayed above zero for the whole day up until then. Trinny also changed into a rather unfashionable outfit, dropping below -0.8 and drifting down, not what one wants to see on a potential one way trend up day.

Some little sup and res gaps later (marked on one min) - I'm reallyenjoying Wellshot's posts on the Dow Intraday thread and it is thanks to him I have even noticed the significance of these. Certainly points to watch for a reaction or to give a clue to the future.

Anyway that's me done. After a good day I suspect my childhood beliefs regarding work (i.e one ought to be paid commensurate with the time put in grafting not the quality of the work done) often like me to give money back to the market in case I haven't "properly earned" it.
 

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You do know yourself Mr Frugi. The market has no way of knowing if you've done the work or not so you can skive off now and spend it on fast cars and women! (I see you've already spent it on a fast car).
 
I'm beginning to know myself Tuffty! Just a few lingering beliefs to defuse (easier said than done, lol) and with luck I'll be a few more paces down the right path. Indeed the market only recognises quality not quantity of work and I must always remember this.

As for the fast car, well I just reluctantly swapped Japanese precision engineering and the best NA engine in the world for a little French - though allegedly as fast point-to-point - Clio 182 to pay off my Christmas credit card hangover. Apart from being fabricated from baler twine, tinfoil and the nastiest interior plastics ever to blight this earth she's a little beaut of a go-kart with wonderfully involving handling so I'm pretty chuffed. Just got to learn neatly to keep the back end in now as it likes to step out at every opportunity :)
 
frugi said:
she's a little beaut of a go-kart with wonderfully involving handling ...
Does "involving handling" by any chance mean that you have to put your feet through the holes in the floor and run like hell? Well done with today's trade, btw.
 
No insights here I'm afraid

A rough (but informative) five days for me, as my silence probably suggested.

-57 incl. commission over last 5 days. :cry:

Increasingly there is a mental conflict between my using indicators versus almost pure P&V, which may take some time to resolve :) I am determined to take the latter route, but to do so requires learning a new language, defining new setups and then incorporating them harmoniously into my present system. The best idea, I guess, is to keep chipping away with my present suboptimal system while continuing to observe P&N acutely, instead of diving in before I'm ready, as I appear to be doing now. Overtrading by the looks of it, though I am experimenting with tiny stops and targets which adds to the turnover. I don't think I'm ready to solve the paltry daily points gain of my present system by increasing size (takes me out of the comfort zone leading to errors) so in time the system must be adapted so as to enable it either to gobble more of the daily range or to use setups with which I am comfortable applying size. But until it is I must not trade P&V hunches - just sit on my hands and see if it plays out as I expected instead - costs nowt! Sorry to bang on about the obvious as usual.

Wed Fri Wed
Thu Tue
below. Horrid. Apologies for the various formats!

PS Held 4 overnight just for you, Quercus! Actually I chickened out of one of them in the small hours LOL.
 

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Ah may as well embarrass myself further by updating my averages.

50 days traded, 606 points incl. all commission = 12.1 points per day not including those occasional stock trades (slightly profitable).

About 0.45% per day ROC of 7k, or 22.8% since I started in Nov 2004.

Actually that's not as bad a result as I thought. :) But I must stop overtrading or it'll get worse :mad:
 
frugi, Just a thought may be completely wrong so ignore me as appropriate. Your averages look very acceptable. You've had a loosing period. You want to change the system.

Could the loosing period just be part of what is a good and profitable way of trading (overall) so it should be accepted?
 
i agree with others' sentiments. longer term Frugs you are doing well. 12pts per day is no mean feat over a pretty extended period, including your current drawdown..

just a thought, have you thought about going up a timescale? 15 min charts perhaps? considerably less stressful, and patterns are more reliable on the longer timeframes..

wider stops to accomodate the noise?

and then Roberto is great aunt susan's second cousin thrice removed..
 
FetteredChinos said:
Roberto is great aunt susan's second cousin thrice removed..
Damn ... he'll be sending in a bill for genealogical research any minute now ...
 
Anyone seen Frugi. Last known whereabouts on this thread 23-2-05. That's a lot of days for a day trader. Maybe we should contact missing persons as he doesn't seem to live here anymore. I'll try shouting into the cave that Frugi used to inhabit....

HELLO FRUGI......
hello frugi......

No, nobody there, just got my echo back....
 
I'm still here in my cave, just very busy with my new position at t2w. Thanks for the concern Tuffty :)
If I have time to post any trades here, I will. I've kept the Grail entry, ditched anything that involves RSI and am now concentrating almost exclusively on 1-2-3s and Ross Hooks following a 1-2-3 BO, using the Trader's Trick entry. Whether or not I choose to take a setup is discretionary, a matter of context, but when I do I look for 5 points on 3/4 of the position and let the other 1/4 run, perhaps for breakeven, 10 points, or if I'm lucky more. Initial stops are <13 points and I often take a loss before they are hit if things 'don't feel right.'

Generally I seem to get a lot of b/e's on the last bit of the position so I now try and give it more room, then trail the stop one tick above or below subvsequent bar closes to flow with the market. I'll try and provide an example at some point as that's not very clear. The market never is!

Edit: There may be a nice example when (if) this up trend falters on the Dow. We've had 5 small waves up within 5 bigger ones, if you include the gap as a big wave 1 so we may get one hereabouts. Looks strong though...

Edit 2: Thanks for the advice Fettered. Regarding moving up a timescale I know what you mean but my heart is simply not in it. I like a quick result and tend to make mistakes when I don't get one. Also the 4 min bars I'm now on suit my money management re stop and risk levels perfectly. Workiing with a 1:2 reward:risk ratio on the bulk of the postion may seem suicidal but the win rate is pleasantly big and hopefully the 'brave runner' left in will up the expectancy (it has so far - I'm still av 12 pts a day as b4, but can up size when more confident using exactly the same rules). Of course I've changed my system since you made your good suggestion so this answer is a tad irrelevant anyway. And wooly, like me. :cheesy: Though I do appreciate the irony of the Dow starting to trend savagely as soon as I concentrate on a scalping style. Missing all those points when I could just sit back and lap them up. But of course I'd probably be facing the other way and in serious pain :LOL:
 
frugi said:
I look for 5 points on 3/4 of the position and let the other 1/4 run, perhaps for breakeven, 10 points, or if I'm lucky more.
Even less ambitious than I (am). I try to let 1/3 run. I suspect that you're using much faster charts than I (am), though? (I know, I know ... I could look at the 1-2-3/RH thread to find out, if I had a strong enough stomach ...).

frugi said:
Generally I seem to get a lot of b/e's on the last bit of the position so I now try and give it more room, then trail the stop one tick above or below subvsequent bar closes to flow with the market.
Yes ... probably best to try to improve these before changing the 1/4 to 1/3. Always the hardest part of the trade, n'est-ce pas?

frugi said:
I've kept the Grail entry
I've added it. :)

(Is this what they mean by "convergence"?)
 
My next target is to take 5 pts on 3/5, 5-10 on 1/5 and let 1/5 run but I'm only trading a small a/c at the moment (for my own safety!) so I'd be best advised not to try this yet!

I'm using 4 minute charts hence the unambitious targets. I like a high win rate and a quick result though, smoother equity curve and suits my impatience and psychology. 15 min charts would have me chewing my cuticles for sure. There are indeed a few examples on your 1-2-3 thread. :)

I agree that the last portion of the position is the hardest, but if the inital 5 pts are bagged then I wait for the bar to close, then, if possible, trail stop +/- 1 pip above/below the previous bar's high/low and it seems to work quite well.

Glad to hear you've popped a Grail in your quiver. There was a lovely one around 6.00 BST today in fact. :)

Here's tonight's 1-2-3 as promised. Initial stop 207. 15 pips - 1 pip - 3.296 pips costs = 10.704 pips. Take 3 good ones a day and I'm happy. Doesn't always work out that way though :LOL:

206 in the white box on the chart should read 201.
 

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frugi said:
My next target is to take 5 pts on 3/5, 10 on 1/5 and let 1/5 run but I'm only trading a small a/c at the moment (for my own safety!) so I'd be best advised not to try this yet!
Sounds like the right sort of approach, though. I wish you well with it.

This is the Dow you're trading! Or the "mini-Dow" or something? You may try to cut off the top line of your chart but the numbers around 10,200 still give the game away (and probably you've stated as much, anyway).

frugi said:
I'm using 4 minute charts hence the unambitious targets.
Yes, I see. Well, Joe Ross writes about the joys of 9-minute charts rather than 10 minutes. So here too, you have probably made a good decision.

frugi said:
15 min charts would have me chewing my cuticles for sure
Fair enough. I'm moving the other way, myself ... more towards 30 minutes (and I can't get 4 minutes or 29 minutes or anything unorthodox like that out of ProRealTime).

frugi said:
Glad to hear you've popped a Grail in your quiver.
Yes indeed; and I have you to thank for that, I think. Your earlier references to "Grail trades" prompted me to read "Street Smarts" to find it (so I also found the apparently interesting Turtle Soup, Turtle Soup Plus One and a couple of other "non-indicator goodies" in the process).

frugi said:
Take 3 good ones a day and I'm happy. Doesn't always work out that way though
No, I know the feeling. I have to look at 9 or 10 different currency charts to find my 3 or 4 really good ones a day (I'm talking about 30-minute charts, though), and I actually like them to be as slow-moving as possible because I find myself increasingly occupied with other things. I'm pretty happy if I can get 3 positive results out of 4 trades in a day, though. It does take some practice, but they really _do_ work.
 
Not so good here frugs - as mighty oaks go, I'm stil but a tiny acorn which is struggling to germinate! :rolleyes:
It's all down to discipline really, and I only have myself to blame. However even in the face of adversity I am for some reason more determined than ever to beat back my personal demons! :eek:
Nice to hear from you!
Q
 
Sorry to hear that mate. I went through about three years of that, if it's any consolation. Of course the journey is a very personal issue dependent on one's individual make-up, but I'll mention (mention? more like an outpouring) this anyway, in case it helps:

The turning point came for me when I did/had done the following -

Discarded:
- a lot of "common knowledge" I'd read in books, except for the few gems that fitted well with my personal psychology.
- almost all indicators, except for volume, NYSE TICK and one moving average.
- purely mechanical systems. In fact systems full stop. What one needs is a method that can adapt to different styles of trading day.
- any opinion I might harbour of market direction.

- Studied price action intently for a long time, especially at key levels, e.g is the push towards a level of resistance fast or slow, what is the angle of attack, what happens at the resistance level (is there a fast snapback or a slow choppy pause), do the bars form quickly or slowly (i.e look at the velocity between hi and lo), what sort of volume relative to previous is there, what shape are the bars and where are the closes relative to the opens etc. After a while patterns become if not ingrained, at least sometimes accessible. It is very useful to try and work out why a certain pattern or movement is occuring. If the pros are chucking in size the movement is likely to be fast - what does this tell you? What about when it isn't? The market often shows her hand in advance if you let her. (NB I can only see this about 10% of the time at best :))

Empathy towards the various trading groups (pros, crowd and gamblers, for instance) and what they are feeling and trying to achieve or avoid, coupled with deductive, analytical reasoning can help get into the market as opposed to looking down on it. This I would say is the most important step.

-Let the market decide whether I entered a trade or not. My method calls for low risk high reward entries and these are often provided by someone else's mistakes.

-Discovered and selected a handful of setups, the very few that I had read about or defined for myself that I could spot time and time again, without fail. Either they were there, or they weren't. How did I know if they were there?

Well, in the case of a setup derived from a bar formation, the pattern must conform exactly to a set of mechanical rules. (This does not mean the overall method is mechanical as you will see).
e.g. A 1-2-3 is defined by strict rules, as is a Ross Hook following a 1-2-3 breakout. The bars either confirm it, or they don't.

While, say, a Grail entry requires the price to pull back to an EMA in a trend, a trend which is confirmed by the ADX being >30 (well I kept the odd indicator!).

That's three of which everyone is familiar, there are others which I'd prefer not to mention..

Forget the context of the patterns for the moment, just learn to find them and define them, in black and white. They will become your friends and all else becomes so much less signficant.

It is a matter of concentrating on the detail that the majority ignore or miss.

Once I had defined the patterns I worked out a way to enter. Actually I didn't, in the case of 1-2-3s / Ross Hooks, I shamelessly borrowed an entry technique from Joe Ross, namely the Trader's Trick Entry.

e.g Wait until there is a potential #3 point forming and place a prospective entry one tick above or below this potential #3 bar. If the next bar negates this #3 point without triggering the entry then cancel the order and wait to see what the next bar does. Let the bars decide your actions, don't second guess the market.

Once I did this then I looked at targets and exits with a view to at least paying costs, then making a profit. Studying charts in real time or going back over them bar by bar is a good way to do this. Given a number of past 1-2-3s or Grail entries what is a realistic initial target that I could be pretty sure of hitting with high probability? For me, this works out, at the moment, as around 5 pips, given the 4 minute bar chart I trade off.

So, the setups were defined and when I chose to trade one I knew exactly what to do whatever the market might throw at me. This takes away all the uncertainty that can occur once in a position. The exit is always known.

This makes the penultimate step easier. This step is subjective, the only subjective element of my system. It depends on experience and intuition, which you must learn to trust. A lot of potential setups occur each and every trading day. There may be 2 potential Grail trades, a handful of 1-2-3s and a couple of Ross Hooks. But they're not all worth taking. When I do take them I know what to do, because rhe rules are mechanical. So all I have to use my brain for is deciding whether or not to take them. This depends on context and subjectivity. A 1-2-3 short bang above the EMA, maybe not such a good idea. A Ross Hook pullback long at the top of a huge extended up trend and a century number, maybe not such a good idea. But a 1-2-3 long after a volume climax following a savage downtrend resting at Dow 32, yes, I might take that. Good 123s often have symmetry (e.g an equal # of bars between 1,2 and 3) and clarity of structure too. They "look" right.

The point is I have objective, concrete rules to define my setups and then a subjective element to decide whether to take them or pass on them.

There's nothing wrong with losing a few pips here and there. Tight stops are great for forcing you to choose an entry with precision and patience. Discipline (and believe me discipline has always been my nemesis) is so much easier to enforce when I know what I am supposed to be doing. I no longer care what the market might do as it doesn't matter.

Define some setups, even a mere two is enough. Get to know them inside out. Work out some targets and stops by observing what has happened in the past when these setups occur, also ensuring they square with your money management criteria. Adjust the stops to the bar formations, e.g a tick below the bar that confirms the setup. Fixed stops can waste money. Keep it simple, more simple than I could possibly believe given how many esoteric techniques and clever things I've tried to incorporate over the years (result - failure). And keep an eye on the wider timeframes in case there's something blindingly obvious that says don't take this trade or get out now.

Study the market geometry - if there is a trend is there a likely target for it, e.g a 1:1 measured move with a pullback in the middle. The symnetry can often be amazing, e.g 5 waves up in a 1:1.618:1 or 1:1:1 ratio really clean within a pip or two. Also be aware of pivots and longer time trendlines, obviously.

Finally, position sizing and scaling out. So you've found an entry and a high probabilty target for most of your postion. Good. But why settle for 5 pips with your whole position? (If I did I would be a net loser, no question - the expectancy simply isn't there) So I'll leave a runner or two in, move the stop up or down with each bar's close and try and squeeze as much as I can out of it. If stopped out, no probs, it doesn't matter. I'll be stopped out 50%+ of the time for b/e or +/- a few pips, but sometimes the market will give me 20+ and it must be given a chance to provide this, where possible. I tend to run one running with a tight trail and leave the other much looser.

Sorry for this patronising ramble Q. I know just how you feel and I still have a long way to go, but I'm sure something will click for you. I have to thank Joe Ross for my turnaround. The Law of Charts and the Trader's Trick have made a huge difference, not only to my setups but to my whole view of what trading is about. The first time I read it I discarded it as over complicated and long winded, but it is actually the opposite. The irony could not be thicker. As Soc has said, if it wasn't so serious, it would be funny.

When you have defined, tested setups then discipline ceases to be an issue: you just get on with the job. Sure, some refinement is healthy, indeed necessary from time to time, but the principle still holds true. The other joy of defined setups is it frees one's mind to concentrate passively on the price action, to really get "inside" the market, ot understand a little more of how it is made to work day after day.

This is all off the top of my head. It is all personal, vague and probably will not apply to your preferred style and temperament. I hate trends and like quick high probability results, that's me. I like poker for the same reasons (except with poker I'll lose 9 small stakes and win 1 big pot - quite the opposite in some respects, but the result is still quick :LOL:)

Because this style suits me I am not tempted to break my rules and my discipline holds true through thick and thin. There's always another trade. But I think there is a principle lurking in there worth taking on board, perhaps. Anyway it is late and I will have to edit tomorrow, but just a flavour of what is going on in Frugi-world. Hope my rambling is of some use Q. Good luck and all the best. :)
 
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